Attitudes of Trainers towards other trainers/owners? Hostile?

[thecolorcoal]

So I have a question for racing people involved with OTTB’s (or anyone),

I recently made contact with my horse’s former track trainer. He was over the moon thrilled to hear from me and how my horse is doing. We’ve been corresponding for several days and he is helping me acquire her paperwork.

I’ve never met a thoroughbred trainer before, much less spoken to one. I explained to him that she is safe, alive, and happy, but that I acquired her from a third party who left her severely neglected. At first he immediately put up the defense claiming he had no part in it (I never insinuated he did), but after I profusely explained that was not what I was claiming and that I just wanted him to know she had been rescued, the barriers came down.

He is incredibly nice, but like I said i am not familiar with how trainers normally talk. Is it common for them to put down other trainers? Owners? Claim that it was only them and them alone who loved the horse and looked after them? I appreciate that this man gave my horse the love and attention she deserved but I sense some deep resentment that he may have been forced to rehome her, and that, five years later, he remains upset about the situation.

Clue me in! Is this normal or just this guy’s personality?

[K_2]

I believe many tracks these days have policies that limit the number of stalls, or ban trainers from running altogether if a horse that had been previously in their care ends up in dire straits (ie. the slaughter pipeline).

This may have been what prompted the defensive reaction you got from this trainer? Just a theory.

[tinah]

Everyone who does horses as a living is going to have ones that speak to them on a very deep level.
people are people. Some of them are going to have more discretion than others when discussing other people in the industry, although outside of the hunter jumper world there is less tendency to not bad mouth people with a deserved reputation.

people that are burnt out are more likely to have a less positive outlook.

[CFFarm]

People are people no matter where they work or what they do. Some are more professional in their dealings with owners and the public in general and others, not so much. I have bitten my tongue more than once when discussing other trainers. To me it is very unprofessional…

[Palm_Beach]

You can substitue “golfer” or “baseball player” or “soccer player” for trainer and get the same result. They are people just like the rest of us. They compete against each other but it’s a small world and there is also camaraderie within the industry. “Trainers” as a subset are no different than any other subset.

[betonbill]

To get back to the original “I contacted my horse’s former trainer” subject, I’m glad that you did that and that the trainer was thrilled that your mare is in a good situation. I sent a letter and photos of my former OTTB to the trainer/owner but did not hear back, but was glad that I did anyway. I think that the more success stories there are, the better the crossover relationship can become. Have fun with your horse. Glad you made the former trainer have a happy day.

[thecolorcoal]

thanks for the responses everyone!

He is retired. He retired from the track about two years after my horse left his care. I suppose I thought people who worked in the industry were closer. This trainer seems, as tinah said, completely burnt out and has a very pessimistic outlook on racing. I guess I just did not expect him to be so venemous when talking about the former owners of this horse and the former trainers, and the Jockey Club itself. It’s obvious he loved my mare very, very much. I do wonder what happened in his dealings with the owners to make him so angry and resentful, but I dare not ask. He was devastated to hear one of his own fell away. He lives nearby, and I said if he ever gets the inkling he can come down and visit her any time he wishes.

I had no idea that the racing world could be as tit for tat as the h/j world (my neck of the woods). He seemed to be certain the entire industry did not care about any of the horses and he alone did. Just an interesting outlook. I’m not sure… do baseball players and other sports people claim that everyone but them doesn’t play for passion? Serious question - not being snarky.

Most of all I DO NOT want him to feel responsible for what happened to her. K-2, I did not know that. It makes sense but now I feel guilty for even bringing it up to him… I sense he is continually, through our emails, trying to defend himself even when no accusations are made. Once the horse left his care, no matter what happened it was not his fault. I hope he knows that… He did the best he could and he gave her to a very close friend to be rehomed, but the person who got her after that broke my mare’s ankle and left her starving when she no longer could perform…

Still, he’s my new pen pal!

[Palm_Beach]

@thecolorcoal

thanks for the responses everyone!

He is retired. He retired from the track about two years after my horse left his care. I suppose I thought people who worked in the industry were closer. This trainer seems, as tinah said, completely burnt out and has a very pessimistic outlook on racing. I guess I just did not expect him to be so venemous when talking about the former owners of this horse and the former trainers, and the Jockey Club itself. It’s obvious he loved my mare very, very much. I do wonder what happened in his dealings with the owners to make him so angry and resentful, but I dare not ask.

Check his statistics. He probably did not win enough to cover his expenses and possibly owners left because they were not making money. Race horse training is very hard, and many good horsemen don’t make good race horse trainers. It’s not uncommon for the unsuccessful trainers to label other trainers “cheats,” since they don’t know why they dont’ get the good results other trainers get. You can look him up on Equibase.

[CVPeg]

A couple of things.
The owners could alternatively be the ones to make the decisions on the horse - either by switching trainers, deciding they want them to continue when they shouldn’t (and trainers might then bow out), or by not paying their bills.

I’ve seen the opposite - a lot of camaraderie between trainers.
But also the above - owners who cause issues for not paying their bills, which can put a small trainer in a precarious situation.

Or just the way the game is these days - the big huge conglomerate of hundreds of horses running under one trainer - being a trainer being a big business when some smaller trainers can’t easily handle both. And so sadly, many now gone not being able to balance all.

[thecolorcoal]

Thank you so much to everyone.

I think I’ve found my answer. He actually retired only a year after my horse left his care. He only made 50g when in the previous year he was making almost 200g. Now I can imagine what happened.

I feel bad for him. He is an incredibly nice guy and was a small-time trainer, not a big trainer and would be considered to have a “mom and pop” business. Most likely there was a falling out with the owners (he also part-owned a lot of horses with the owners) and it was bad enough to leave a negative mark on him.

I have another question: now, I am 99% sure this guy is legit but my horse has a lot of injuries that would be commonly found at the track: fractured sesamoid, fused lumbar spine, she cribs, the list goes on, but he assures me she retired 100% sound and none of her ailments happened with him. I’m not kidding when I said I bought her 2 steps away from getting inside a trailer headed to auction, she was in such bad condition. Could these kind of traditional track injuries happen in other sports, specifically barrel racing? (sorry, not a racing question but i really want to know)

Is it common for trainers to be immersed in their horses and be concerned about their welfare/happiness/etc or is that rare? This trainer says he was the only trainer at his barn who took impeccable care of his horses (i think that’s a little hard to believe?).

[tinah]

Barrel racing at the backyard level can be an absolute shit show. The crew I sometimes run with takes better care of their horses than any other discipline I’ve seen. Again, it runs the gamut.

[CHT]

I have vetted two horses at the track that appeared sound but showed fractured seasmoids upon x-ray. Apparently pelvis fractures are also very common with race horses that are raced as two year olds.

Went to look at our neighbours OTTB that she swore was sound, but he had the most disturbing looking hocks.

I just get the impression that the track version of “sound” is not the same as the show world vs of sound, which is also not the same as a vet’s version of sound.

[Palm_Beach]

@thecolorcoal

Thank you so much to everyone.

I think I’ve found my answer. He actually retired only a year after my horse left his care. He only made 50g when in the previous year he was making almost 200g. Now I can imagine what happened.

I feel bad for him. He is an incredibly nice guy and was a small-time trainer, not a big trainer and would be considered to have a “mom and pop” business. Most likely there was a falling out with the owners (he also part-owned a lot of horses with the owners) and it was bad enough to leave a negative mark on him.

I have another question: now, I am 99% sure this guy is legit but my horse has a lot of injuries that would be commonly found at the track: fractured sesamoid, fused lumbar spine, she cribs, the list goes on, but he assures me she retired 100% sound and none of her ailments happened with him. I’m not kidding when I said I bought her 2 steps away from getting inside a trailer headed to auction, she was in such bad condition. Could these kind of traditional track injuries happen in other sports, specifically barrel racing? (sorry, not a racing question but i really want to know)

Is it common for trainers to be immersed in their horses and be concerned about their welfare/happiness/etc or is that rare? This trainer says he was the only trainer at his barn who took impeccable care of his horses (i think that’s a little hard to believe?).

What do you mean that he “only made 50g?” The trainer usually gets 10% of the purse, so is that 10% of $500,000 in purse money, or did his horses make $50,000 in purse money? Same with the “200g.” $2,000,000 a year in purse money is good. $200,000 is not.

[findeight]

Race trainers really aren’t so different then trainers in any other discipline as far as communication skills and pressure to win to keep owners in their barn.

Far as the pelvic fracture, which OPs horse does not have, only recently had the diagnostics to identify that, the starting gate probably is involved in some of that. Some of those move pretty normally, especially if there was no displacement. OPs race trainer was probably going by the term " serviceably sound", which means it gets around OK even on healed sesamoids. I doubt he would know about lumbar fusion, also only recently able to diagnose. Doubt he tried to cover anything up.

OP, you mentioned barrel racing? Was she competing there after she came off the track? If so, would be a mistake assuming everything is a track souvenir. Not that BR is intrinsically rough on a horse but it involves speed and tight turns…and there are some real yahoo spur and jerk devotees out there on the backyard jackpot levels that wouldn’t know a sore horse from a six pack.

[thecolorcoal]

I suppose i meant that his horses only
won $50k when they had been winning more years before then.

The trainer said she retired “sound,” and she stopped racing because “she lost her motivation.” I’ve heard of this happening. I can also see it as a convenient out for damages to the horse… This trainer has an incredibly good reputation at the track so it’s hard for me to believe he is lying.

she ended up with the owner I got her from a few people down the line. Owner barrel raced her. Something happened that the owner did not disclose and left the horse in a pasture for a year. Trainer said she never has fusing, cribbing, or a fractured sesamoid with him and gave horse to a good training friend to restart. Training friend (responsible woman) sold her to woman I got her from and we think her issues came from this woman. I know nothing about barrel racing. Can horses break their sesamoids around barrels? Can a bad fall cause SI issues which lead to fusion?

is this more of a track injury and should I be digging deeper or leave everything at this? I don’t think I’ll ever know what happened for sure with this old trainer but I can put as many pieces together as I can.

[tinah]

I think “trying to piece together the story” isn’t going to do you, your horse, or your new trainer friend any favors. Treat the horse in front of you, roll with th humans the way they are, and take what comes as it does and you’ll do okay.

[maunder]

As others have said, people are people. Good and bad in every bunch.

It is my opinion that because of the fact that a Thoroughbred’s former connections can be traced through a tattoo, that former owners have been blamed over and over for neglect that they didn’t do. Just recently there were several Thoroughbreds that were listed for sale on Facebook dealer pages. The last connections of record were being blasted by all and sundry for abandoning the horses, sending them to kill pens and what-have-you. When I looked at the last racing date of at least four of these horses, the horses had been retired from six to ten years ago. Their racing connections had nothing to do with why the horse ended up in a bad spot.

I think because of this exposure, which includes people calling and harassing former trainers, owners and breeders, that people have learned to be hesitant when dealing with someone who might call and say, “I have your horse.”

I’m glad that you had a good conversation with the retired owner of your horse.

I agree with tinah’s opinion.

[thecolorcoal]

Thank you everyone.

I have been told many times that putting the pieces of the past together isn’t going to help fix or heal these issues. I suppose why I have been searching for this trainer so long is the timeline of the injuries. New information has revealed that they are younger and more recent than we originally thought, which concerns me. Her longevity as a riding horse is in question and I’ve decided to take it one day at a time but the fact that she may not last to 20 terrifies me. Maybe down the line I’ll be able to afford a second horse but right now she is my one and only and I must, must maintain her. Knowing the circumstances of her accidents helps me plan ahead for her future.

i had no idea so many TB trainers were coming under fire. I thought it was just known and accepted that shady deals happen in this industry. I thought that trainers would be happy and relieved to know their horses were safe in new homes instead of in a dog food bag. I would be the last person to accuse anyone of wrong doing.

i hypothesize that only recently has it been advocated for these very special, sport horses can transition to other careers. I suppose a lot of people who are involved in racing see tb’s as horses with one and one job only, and don’t have a multi-useabilty and that is why they are sent to auction? I hope the rise of the OTTB has given a lot of trainers an alternative for their horses knowing that the breed is valuable in English and western sports.

[maunder]

Placement and retraining of retiring racehorses is not new. Not at all. It’s just that there is social media now to promote it more.

The Chronicle forum was the main source that was used when I was a volunteer for a trainer listings group over 10 years ago. Our small group was certainly not the first to promote new careers for retiring racehorses. It has been around a long time.

[findeight]

Many horses from many other breeds and backgrounds are not fully useable to 20. That’s not a given. They may live longer but the vast majority start showing age related wear and tear by late teens and have their workloads greatly reduced in the real world. Even horses who never raced and rarely broke a sweat in a leisure type job suffer age related issues, they aren’t lightweights on those legs even just standing around. Know folks who have retired horses under 10 as a result of chronic problems from injuries they have no clue how, when or where they originally happened.

Yes, any horse can suffer sesamoid injury from the concussion of speed work and/or hard ground, possibly complicated by conformational weakness. And any horse can fall screwing around in a field and suffer a back injury and fusion. We have a poster whose horse turned out to have broken a rib, no clue what happened.

IMO tracing a horse’s history is fine, can be important in chasing soundness issues…but to help treat them. Not to pin blame on somebody. If you want more info on an injury, go to the last owner who had something bad enough to lay the horse up for a year happen but didn’t disclose what when they sold it, maybe because they honestly didn’t know. And you didn’t get a good PPE.

Dont always assume the trouble was started at the track. That’s another reason why track trainers are often reluctant to discuss horses they had in the past, the blame game.