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Attn: Calif Horse Owners and animal lovers---Help us rein in the Vet Board!

[QUOTE=pezk;8502186]
Depends on how medical services is defined. Horse owners, BM, routinely help each other with horse treatments. Are you going to require every BM to have a DVM because they might give shots, do treatments, give medications etc?[/QUOTE]

No but they are legally walking a fine line. Your barn owner gives Banamine IM from their stock on your shelf while your horse has a minor gas colic. You have a severe reaction and a clostridial abscess. Who do you seek damages from? Your barn owner knowing their risks gives an IV injection in the artery and your horse drops dead? Do you want the ability to seek legal repercussions and damages? Your barn owner vaccinates all the horses on their property and your horse still breaks with EEE, how do you know your horse was even properly vaccinated?

[QUOTE=pezk;8501875]
I don’t think this is necessary at all. There isn’t any reason for acupuncturists and chiropractors to be DVM. They should be trained but not to the extent of a DVM. Is the state going to tell an owner that they can’t do TTouch on their horse, or other treatments because they aren’t a DVM? I can’t imagine the vast majority of horse owners paying attention to these rules.
Maybe another way to eliminate horses/and or make every horse owner into a convict.
I think this is about money, not the welfare of the horse.[/QUOTE]

Do you really think someone with no background in animal anatomy (e.g., a non-veterinary acupuncturist) should be sticking needles in animals?

[QUOTE=pezk;8501875]
I think this is about money, not the welfare of the horse.[/QUOTE]

I disagree, and this story illustrates why:

My boss, who owned the veterinary clinic, was skeptical but allowed a client to use his facility for a chiropractor to come treat her horse and those of a couple friends. Licensed human chiropractor IIRC.

From the beginning, it was obvious to most that she was not very familiar with horses. That later became painfully obvious to all when she asked an owner about the horses symptoms. The owner said something about his hocks, and the chiropractor replied, “his hind hocks?”

I have no doubt that some chiropractors/massage therapists/etc are highly skilled and competent, but the problem is there is no mechanism in place to assure that. The idea is to ensure that someone who knows what they are doing be involved/legally responsible for the “treatment”. If we had appropriate schooling and licensure for “alternative” practitioners this wouldn’t be necessary, but until we do, this is the best band-aid we have.

Requiring training and licensing for chiro and massage etc is a whole different ballgame than requiring everyone to have a DVM.

[QUOTE=Justmyluck;8502210]
No but they are legally walking a fine line. Your barn owner gives Banamine IM from their stock on your shelf while your horse has a minor gas colic. You have a severe reaction and a clostridial abscess. Who do you seek damages from? Your barn owner knowing their risks gives an IV injection in the artery and your horse drops dead? Do you want the ability to seek legal repercussions and damages? Your barn owner vaccinates all the horses on their property and your horse still breaks with EEE, how do you know your horse was even properly vaccinated?[/QUOTE]

How many boarding barns are there in the US? I don’t know the exact number but lots and lots and lots. If a state required that only DVM could oversee the daily activities in a barn, and barns could only be owned by DVMs,there would be no horses. Only the rich could afford them. But maybe that’s what some of you want.

i still say most of this is all about money.

[QUOTE=Ghazzu;8502211]
Do you really think someone with no background in animal anatomy (e.g., a non-veterinary acupuncturist) should be sticking needles in animals?[/QUOTE]
I said they should be trained but requiring a DVM is way beyond what should be required.

We have a barn here that offers rehab and swimming.
Vets send horses there for rehab.

One vet I know goes there also to do chiropractic work and PPEs and maintenance vet work like draining and injecting joints of horses in rehab, etc. just as it would do in any other barn it may go to.

That place is also used by many to condition their horses, haul them in for swimming sessions, which doesn’t has anything to do with veterinary medicine.

It is going to be hard to keep both separated, the rehab part and the conditioning part?

My point is that a DVM should over see each medical case in a barn and throughly with whoever is doing the treatment. Same goes for massage therapist, chiropractors, acupuncturist ect. With the sketchy licensure requirements you have to have someway to ensure someone knows what theyre doing.

Those hundreds to thousands of barns are still walking a fine line.

[QUOTE=merrygoround;8501918]
I think melhorse has nailed it. Yes, there are great equine dentists out there., and very knowledgeable massage therapists, but there are others I wouldn’t let near my horse.[/QUOTE]
This is my thought exactly.
There are people who take a two day course and hang up a shingle that they are certified at this stuff.
:eek:

[QUOTE=pezk;8502587]How many boarding barns are there in the US? I don’t know the exact number but lots and lots and lots. If a state required that only DVM could oversee the daily activities in a barn, and barns could only be owned by DVMs,there would be no horses. Only the rich could afford them. But maybe that’s what some of you want.

i still say most of this is all about money.[/QUOTE]
Holy deep end!
There is a ton to boarding that does not include vet stuff like giving shots.
Clearly you are liking being dramatic about this, hu?

[QUOTE=Calif Valley Vet;8500949]
The California Vet Med Board (CVMB) has already shut down equine dentists, acupuncturists and chiropractors who don’t work with a veterinarian on-site. They are now trying to do the same with massage therapy and swim therapy. The way they’ve defined “The practice of veterinary medicine,” they can do a whole lot more. Their enforcement measures consist of stings based on complaints( mostly by competing veterinarians), fines of thousands of dollars and threat of other legal action Iem they are not very nice about it and don’t give warning letters. In Arizona, they shut down low-cost vaccination clinics. Don’t think it can’t happen here. I was at a meeting where they were bouncing that idea around.
California Alliance for Animal Owners Rights (www.CalAAOR.com) is working on getting a bill sponsored that will allow animal owners to seek care from non-veterinarians, just as SB 577 allowed people to use acupuncturists and other alternative care with out threat of action by the Medical Board. We need signatures for our petition and even more importantly clubs and associations to sign a letter of support. Please check out our website and the FB page for California Alliance for Animal Owners Rights.[/QUOTE]

There is a huge debate going on in the country right now about the use of “licensure” as an antitrust mechanism to keep out market participants.

Over 20 years ago, I read an AVMA paper stating strategy for going after these practioners. This is not just CA. You need to be knowledgeable about the state of these cases throughout the US.

The FTC is not looking kindly on this and brought suit that went all the way to the US Supreme Court. In this case the NC Board of Dentists sued to shut down women who were offering teeth whitening services claiming it was the practice of dentistry. The NC Board lost at the SCOTUS.

NORTH CAROLINA STATE BOARD OF DENTAL EXAMINERS v. FEDERAL TRADE COMMISSION
http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/14pdf/13-534_19m2.pdf

You might want to contact the Institute for Justice. They represented a Maryland woman who was offering horse massage…and won
http://ij.org/case/clemens-v-maryland-state-board-of-veterinary-medical-examiners-et-al/

On June 10, 2008, the Institute for Justice filed suit in Montgomery County Circuit Court in Rockville on behalf of Mercedes Clemens, challenging Maryland’s animal massage regulations as a violation of fundamental constitutional rights. After the lawsuit was filed, the Veterinary Board immediately backed down and was dismissed from the case, but the Chiropractic Board maintained its cease-and-desist order against Ms. Clemens for another year under the absurd argument that anyone in Maryland was permitted to massage animals except people who were also licensed to massage humans. On July 30, 2009, Judge David Boynton of the Montgomery County Circuit Court ruled that the Chiropractic Board had no authority over the practice of animal massage and had acted illegally in shutting down Ms. Clemens’ business. Thanks to this ruling, Ms. Clemens has begun rebuilding her practice and reconnecting with her former clients.

Here is a rather long-winded article from two law profs at UPenn on
CARTELS BY ANOTHER NAME: SHOULD LICENSED OCCUPATIONS FACE ANTITRUST SCRUTINY?
https://www.pennlawreview.com/print/162-U-Pa-L-Rev-1093.pdf

When only about five percent of American workers were subject to licensing requirements during the 1950s, the anticompetitive effect of these state- sanctioned cartels was relatively small. Now, however, nearly a third of American workers need a state license to perform their job legally, and this trend toward licensing is continuing. The service sector—the most likely to be covered by licensing—has grown enormously, with its share of nonfarm employment growing from roughly 40% in 1950 to over 60% in 2007. Some recent additions to the list of professions requiring licenses include lock- smiths, beekeepers, auctioneers interior designers, fortune tellers, tour guides, and shampooers.

[QUOTE=trubandloki;8502629]
This is my thought exactly.
There are people who take a two day course and hang up a shingle that they are certified at this stuff.
:eek:

Holy deep end!
There is a ton to boarding that does not include vet stuff like giving shots.
Clearly you are liking being dramatic about this, hu?[/QUOTE]

Really? In 50 yrs I’ve never met a boarding barn where the BM didn’t give treatments and shots. And many BO who give vaccines except for rabies.
All who have to do is read thru the threads under Horse Care for horse owners asking about purchasing vaccines etc. not to mention on other horse forums.
Dramatic? I don’t think so. Just realistic.

So lets just get rid of licensing all together. Right? And although I am not sure beekeepers need to be licensed in all cases, those that provide pollination services might need to be. Auctuoneers handle a significant amount of money, licensure allows the state to be able to go after a crooked one. And even here in Illinois it is fairly inexpensive. That last article is a bit misleading.

And there are many boarding barns that don’t give shots.
It is a fine line, even if many people do it. Who is at fault if something goes wrong? That is what the posters are saying. Not right or wrong but there is a risk, albeit slight, but horse owner should acknowledge that risk.

[QUOTE=pezk;8502934]
Really? In 50 yrs I’ve never met a boarding barn where the BM didn’t give treatments and shots. And many BO who give vaccines except for rabies.
All who have to do is read thru the threads under Horse Care for horse owners asking about purchasing vaccines etc. not to mention on other horse forums.
Dramatic? I don’t think so. Just realistic.[/QUOTE]

You have 10 years on me so I guess you win but I clearly board at a different type of facility than you do.

I have never had a BO/BM give my horse vaccines or shots.

And yes, you are being dramatic, even in this post.
These laws do nothing about YOU personally giving YOUR horse a vaccine, or you personally treating your horse or giving your horse a nice rub down.
It is about people advertising themselves and making money doing it.

Edit to add - Since I own a horse who had their first ever vaccine reaction at the age of nine, I am happy that I do not let just anyone vaccinate my horse.

If you want someone to give your horse a vaccine or an emergency Banamine shot, all you have to do is sign a release. It is ridiculous that one would have to have a veterinarian to give either. In some areas of the country you are lucky if you can get a vet at all on the weekend, even in my area which is pretty densely populated, I had a horse with a severe colic and I could not get someone out for 2 hours.

[QUOTE=Calamber;8503125]
or an emergency Banamine shot[/QUOTE]
Emergency Banamine can be given orally. Anyone can do that. Even the average not able to give a shot owner.

[QUOTE=trubandloki;8503109]
You have 10 years on me so I guess you win but I clearly board at a different type of facility than you do.

I have never had a BO/BM give my horse vaccines or shots.

And yes, you are being dramatic, even in this post.
These laws do nothing about YOU personally giving YOUR horse a vaccine, or you personally treating your horse or giving your horse a nice rub down.
It is about people advertising themselves and making money doing it.

Edit to add - Since I own a horse who had their first ever vaccine reaction at the age of nine, I am happy that I do not let just anyone vaccinate my horse.[/QUOTE]

I hire a massage therapist and a chiro on a reg basis to work on my horse. Neither is a DVM and in fact the vets respect the opinion of each of those people and lots of time will consult with them. I hire vets that don’t think they know it all.

Last yr was the first time I ever hired a DVM that only does dentistry, nothing else.
She was very good but was she $200 better than a couple of floaters that are very experienced and have been around and respected for many yrs? Esp for a normal floating? Not sure about the answer. I don’t like floaters who sedate a horse without a vet around. That’s why I don’t use the floaters the rest of the barn uses.

Would I allow a BO to give my horse vaccines - no, but my mare has a rare auto immune disease that most vets aren’t familiar with. So I’m very careful even about what vet touches my horse.

But in many parts of the country, vets aren’t easy to come by. people still own and board horses. What do you want them to do? If a vet can’t get to a barn for a couple of hrs or more, the BM shouldn’t give a shot of banamine to a colicing horse?

[QUOTE=pezk;8503234]
I hire a massage therapist and a chiro on a reg basis to work on my horse. Neither is a DVM and in fact the vets respect the opinion of each of those people and lots of time will consult with them. I hire vets that don’t think they know it all.

Last yr was the first time I ever hired a DVM that only does dentistry, nothing else.
She was very good but was she $200 better than a couple of floaters that are very experienced and have been around and respected for many yrs? Esp for a normal floating? Not sure about the answer. I don’t like floaters who sedate a horse without a vet around. That’s why I don’t use the floaters the rest of the barn uses.

Would I allow a BO to give my horse vaccines - no, but my mare has a rare auto immune disease that most vets aren’t familiar with. So I’m very careful even about what vet touches my horse.

But in many parts of the country, vets aren’t easy to come by. people still own and board horses. What do you want them to do? If a vet can’t get to a barn for a couple of hrs or more, the BM shouldn’t give a shot of banamine to a colicing horse?[/QUOTE]

No they should give it orally. If they value their behinds.

I loved the last barn I was at LOVED them. I boarded there for 5 years, she kept all the horses on the same vaccine schedule and had an excellent veterinarian relationship with local vet. She ask me every fall and spring about if I wanted my guy vaccinated. I under the impression that she had the vet out to do them. They showed up on my boarding bill I was under the impression she was just invoicing out the vet bill to the boarders. So one day I needed vaccine records and called the veterinarian they had zero record of vaccinating my horse. I was floored. So I contacted the BO and turns out she ordered the vaccines and did them herself. That is SO illegal it isn’t even funny. Biting my tongue I quickly put an end to the farm vaccinations and called the vet to update all my guys vaccines.

Still love that barn and that owner but I don’t trust another soul to stick a needle in my horse. I keep banamine paste on hand to give to my guy because I want to ensure no one is going to think to inject my banamine.

[QUOTE=pezk;8503234]

But in many parts of the country, vets aren’t easy to come by. people still own and board horses. What do you want them to do? If a vet can’t get to a barn for a couple of hrs or more, the BM shouldn’t give a shot of banamine to a colicing horse?[/QUOTE]
Or the horse owner can give that same banamine orally, if they do not know how to give the IV shot. (Which I already said in the post above yours.)

I really have no reason to fight either side of this battle, I do not live in CA, I live in NY where we already have similar laws.

I was simply disputing some comments that made no sense. Boarding would not go under and every horse would not die.

As a BO, I have no intention of vaccinating any of the boarder’s horses. I will not give Banamine even orally without first speaking to a veterinarian. I did reluctantly give Legend to one horse at the owner’s request when they couldn’t be there to do it. The liability is just too huge.

As far as licensure is concerned, I am a believer because I have seen too may uneducated, “I slept at Holiday Inn” types performing chiropractic and equine dentistry. And having seen a human with a perforated plural cavity from acupuncture, why would I let someone, not a veterinarian, stick needles in my horse?