[QUOTE=trubandloki;8503213]
Emergency Banamine can be given orally. Anyone can do that. Even the average not able to give a shot owner.[/QUOTE]
In the 30 or so years since Flunixin meglumine was first marketed, I have yet to see a horse die from a Banamine deficiency.
[QUOTE=Ghazzu;8503395]
In the 30 or so years since Flunixin meglumine was first marketed, I have yet to see a horse die from a Banamine deficiency.[/QUOTE]
So very true!!!
I wouldn’t personally skimp financially to have someone that is not a veterinarian doing acupuncture, chiropractic type treatments. Too much damage can be done by trained professionals let alone someone that is not as well trained.
Years ago, when I was just out of school, one of the local barns had a “chiropractor” (not a DVM, and also not a DC), who used to come work on some of the horses. She’d bang on them with a hammer and a block of wood, then tell the owners to give a couple grams of bute that evening, because the horse would be sore from her “adjustments”.
Owners would rave about how much difference the “adjustments” made.
I limited my commentary to suggesting they try the 2 g of bute without the (relatively pricey) “chiropractor”, and see how much difference there was.
It wasn’t long before I topped seeing her around much.
[QUOTE=pezk;8501875]
I don’t think this is necessary at all. There isn’t any reason for acupuncturists and chiropractors to be DVM. They should be trained but not to the extent of a DVM. Is the state going to tell an owner that they can’t do TTouch on their horse, or other treatments because they aren’t a DVM? I can’t imagine the vast majority of horse owners paying attention to these rules.
Maybe another way to eliminate horses/and or make every horse owner into a convict.
I think this is about money, not the welfare of the horse.[/QUOTE]
What it is about is the fact that these people are known for diagnosing and prescribing treatment when they don’t have enough education to be able to make a diagnosis through a thorough understanding of all of the possible causes of a problem.
[QUOTE=Ryle;8504804]
What it is about is the fact that these people are known for diagnosing and prescribing treatment when they don’t have enough education to be able to make a diagnosis through a thorough understanding of all of the possible causes of a problem.[/QUOTE]
What guarantees that a DVM is going to diagnose and treat a problem correctly?
It would be nice to believe that a DVM is going to be right all the time or most of the time, but it doesn’t always happen. In 50 yrs I’ve seen vets who thought they were god’s gift to the horse world, and other people thought so too, do some pretty stupid stuff that resulted in permanent lameness or a dead horse. A DVM is not a guarantee, neither is an MD.
All a horse owner can do is to try to find the best individual to treat their horse. And to do your own research on the condition, talk to others, be there for a DVM appt, and watch and ask lots of questions.
As I said in a previous post, I have a massage therapist and a chiro that works on my horse. Neither is a DVM. But my vets value their opinion, just like my farrier. Horse care, esp if the horse has a rare problem, is a team effort. I’ll take this team any day. Not much different than human medicine.
Did Swamp Yankee make yet another ID?
[QUOTE=pezk;8504914]
What guarantees that a DVM is going to diagnose and treat a problem correctly?
It would be nice to believe that a DVM is going to be right all the time or most of the time, but it doesn’t always happen. In 50 yrs I’ve seen vets who thought they were god’s gift to the horse world, and other people thought so too, do some pretty stupid stuff that resulted in permanent lameness or a dead horse. A DVM is not a guarantee, neither is an MD.
All a horse owner can do is to try to find the best individual to treat their horse. And to do your own research on the condition, talk to others, be there for a DVM appt, and watch and ask lots of questions.
As I said in a previous post, I have a massage therapist and a chiro that works on my horse. Neither is a DVM. But my vets value their opinion, just like my farrier. Horse care, esp if the horse has a rare problem, is a team effort. I’ll take this team any day. Not much different than human medicine.[/QUOTE]
There are no guarantees. In fact, one of the things I heard often in school was to never guarantee an outcome.
However, if I were betting on the likelihood of a correct diagnosis I’d put my money on the person with 4 years of in depth education over someone who took a weekend course in “healing” because they saw a way to make a buck.
I have great respect for trained massage therapists, and have even guest lectured for one program out there. But those folks are not out there diagnosing illness and prescribing treatment.
I’ve put in a substantial amount of time in learning veterinary acupuncture, but I have no credentials nor desire to to stick needles in the friends and clients who have asked me to.
And if I did, and the state found out, I’d be in a world of crap.
[QUOTE=Ghazzu;8505125]
There are no guarantees. In fact, one of the things I heard often in school was to never guarantee an outcome.
However, if I were betting on the likelihood of a correct diagnosis I’d put my money on the person with 4 years of in depth education over someone who took a weekend course in “healing” because they saw a way to make a buck.
I have great respect for trained massage therapists, and have even guest lectured for one program out there. But those folks are not out there diagnosing illness and prescribing treatment.
I’ve put in a substantial amount of time in learning veterinary acupuncture, but I have no credentials nor desire to to stick needles in the friends and clients who have asked me to.
And if I did, and the state found out, I’d be in a world of crap.[/QUOTE]
Just curious Ghazzu, What do you think about DVMs that practice Chinese medicine, use Chinese herbs etc and other holistic approaches? Not taught in vet school, right? Do you think there should be additional licensing requirements?
[QUOTE=pezk;8505185]
Just curious Ghazzu, What do you think about DVMs that practice Chinese medicine, use Chinese herbs etc and other holistic approaches? Not taught in vet school, right? Do you think there should be additional licensing requirements?[/QUOTE]
I do think there should be additional training.
And most of the DVMs I know who use these tools have done just that, and continue to do so.
In fact, it is a matter of frustration to us that much of the CE we do in those areas is not recognized by state boards.
As we all know, herbs can be medicinal or deadly or have not much effect on anything, and I think anyone who wants to explore naturopathic treatments (be it DVMs or MDs or the owners/patients themselves) be educated on what they are doing. There is a DVM who solely does chiropractic and acupuncture in my area who drives me batty. They never want to see the horse move or evaluate a lameness concern, they just start adjusting away. They also hawk some holistic ulcer remedy, which, aside from probably not having any effect on actual gastric ulcers, contains some herbs that are on the USEF/FEI forbidden substances list, which I discovered because I was interested in showing one of the patients at one point. No words of caution or anything in dispensing the product. The icing on the cake is that every single time they say they had to adjust the girth area at “T1”. Now, herbs aside, I would really want my chiropractor to know where all of the vertebrae are!
So, schooling doesn’t necessarily equal competence, but schooling, degree, licensing are factors I consider as part of determining competence, maybe as a baseline.
[QUOTE=Ghazzu;8505201]
I do think there should be additional training.
And most of the DVMs I know who use these tools have done just that, and continue to do so.
In fact, it is a matter of frustration to us that much of the CE we do in those areas is not recognized by state boards.[/QUOTE]
Thx Ghazzu. Would the state boards even know what was right or wrong in these areas?
[QUOTE=pezk;8505475]
Thx Ghazzu. Would the state boards even know what was right or wrong in these areas?[/QUOTE]
State boards usually use other agencies as criteria–one that used to be common was that anything presented by a veterinary school counted. There has been a move towards granting the Association of state Veterinary Boards, a quasi-govermmental group, the authority to decide what’s kosher and what isn’t. That’s a huge can of worms, IMHO, for various reasons, which are peripheral to this discussion.
[QUOTE=SonnysMom;8501843]
It sounds like different regulation is needed. Not the has to have a vet on sight. Maybe only certified journeyman farrier’s can practice in a state. Or have certain massage therapy, dentistry schools that they have to graduate from to obtain the license. This would cut out the 2 day course crap.[/QUOTE]
Yes. It would be lovely to have great programs out there that were recognized nationally and held to a consistent standard. I think many of the practitioners would love better training. Of course, some just want to turn a quick profit.
A DVM should certainly be involved in the rehab plan, but I would be surprised if one was truly required to be on site. It makes sense to require that one be a part of creating the plan, because you can do a heck of a lot of damage without a correct diagnosis & treatment. But direct supervision adds $$$$ to the treatment.
[QUOTE=arapaloosa_lady;8505702]
A DVM should certainly be involved in the rehab plan, but I would be surprised if one was truly required to be on site. It makes sense to require that one be a part of creating the plan, because you can do a heck of a lot of damage without a correct diagnosis & treatment. But direct supervision adds $$$$ to the treatment.[/QUOTE]
A more reasonable approach would be to require referral by a DVM, after a diagnosis. I would agree that having a DVM standing around watching a massage therapist work is just plain silly.
[QUOTE=IPEsq;8501629]
I would not like having massage therapists regulated like that, but I think rehab facilities (who would offer swim therapy) should have a vet they work closely with, for a variety of reasons. I would also never use a dentist that is not a vet, personally, given the amount of sedation required for dental work, the possibility of needing Xrays, etc.[/QUOTE]
Darryl is rolling over in his grave…
Sorry! …and I don’t remember who Darryl is.
[QUOTE=merrygoround;8501918]
I think melhorse has nailed it. Yes, there are great equine dentists out there., and very knowledgeable massage therapists, but there are others I wouldn’t let near my horse.[/QUOTE]
And also, it’s a money-grab for vets.
If you read the history of the AMA (American Medical Association) it’s clear that the impetus for regulating human medicine (eliminating things like midwifery and osteopathic medicine) was very much about insuring something of a monopoly for MDs.
It doesn’t bum me out/surprise me that the lobbying group for California vets is doing what it can to protect the income streams of its’ members. But I do think it’s worth acknowledging this motivation.
In not sure that’s the best analogy. You still need a degree to be a DO. And midwives must be RNs.
Osteopaths are licensed by medical boards in all states.
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