Australian Cattle Dog won't leave the horses alone - Shock collar?

[FatCatFarm]

We have a wonderful 3yr old, neutered red heeler. He’s wonderful with my daughter and the cats; and good in the house, sleeping beside my bed each night.

However, he is a redhead and Heeler, so can be a handful at times. While mostly good with the other dogs and cats, he arbitrarily becomes possessive about things like a certain dish or dog bed, and has snapped hard a few times at the smaller dogs, so far causing no injury but inciting a lot of fear.

The biggest problem is that if you don’t keep an eye on him while outside, he will chase and corner the horses then bite - not nip - their hind legs. He has left open wounds several times causing swelling and discomfort requiring soaking, medicating and bandaging, narrowly missing a vet visit and round of antibiotics.

He has been caught red handed and disciplined repeatedly, but this has not deterred him. The result being that he stays confined either to a kennel or inside with us, more than he should, which probably doesn’t help with his pentup aggression when he’s out. He trail rides along with the horses great, but we’re not always trail riding.

He’s a great dog, but I am afraid that maybe he needs to be at a home with a family who is home more than we are (we’re gone 12 hours out of the day with work) though we are outside lots during the evenings and on weekends. Ideally, I think he needs to go to someone with cattle. I’m afraid, one day our vigilance will slip and he’ll really cause a nasty, even irreversible injury to one of the horses.

My last resort before rehoming him may be a shock collar, which we have not tried. Do they really help?

[Crockpot]

The biggest problem is that if you don’t keep an eye on him while outside, he will chase and corner the horses then bite - not nip - their hind legs. He has left open wounds several times causing swelling and discomfort requiring soaking, medicating and bandaging, narrowly missing a vet visit and round of antibiotics.

He has been caught red handed and disciplined repeatedly, but this has not deterred him.

I’m afraid, one day our vigilance will slip and he’ll really cause a nasty, even irreversible injury to one of the horses.

Ideally, I think he needs to go to someone with cattle.

:eek: After the first time that would have been the end for me- he would never be off leash again around any livestock - and would rehome to a place with no livestock. Cattle dont need their legs chewed up either:confused:

No experience with shock collars but I expect you would need an experienced trainer to do that training- it is not just about zapping them- and this takes $ and a commitment over time and still not off leash.

But if a dog behaved on my farm as you described - he would NEVER be off the leash to be given a second chance to do this again.

I just can’t understand why anyone would take that chance.

[FatCatFarm]

Heelers are a different breed of cat so to speak and I kept hoping he would grow out of it and chill out, but it’s become obvious that, that isn’t going to happen.

In his defense, he’s just doing what Heelers are bred to do. I think he is getting frustrated that the horses go to a corner and then refuse to budge, hence the biting. But yes, I’m certainly tired of it and had hoped it was something he would grow out of, but hasn’t. If he wasn’t such a good dog in so many other ways, he would already be gone. Unfortunately, I really don’t see a solution other than rehoming him. He needs a job and/or constant supervision.

[SuckerForHorses]

I have a red heeler. The problem with shock collars in this case, is yours WILL be smart enough to know that when the collar is off, chasing can still happen.

THIS is what happened to my dog after he picked the wrong day to chase my gelding. $5000 later, and he is alive, but it was questionable. Open skull fracture from a kick to the head.

http://s238.photobucket.com/user/agonyaw/library/RustyFracture5-4-2013

My horses are not at home, they are at my parents farm, so keeping my guy from chasing is easy now - when we go there, he’s on a leash unless horses are in their stalls. EVERY TIME. NO EXCEPTIONS.

[Juliette]

^OMG, the radiographs of that skull fracture! Yowza.

[FatCatFarm]

He’s already been clocked twice and good by the horses and it hasn’t deterred him a bit. He’s fine when you’re around, but let him outside unsupervised and he’s up to no good. Gah!

[Crockpot]

[QUOTE=FatCatFarm;8546915]
He’s already been clocked twice and good by the horses and it hasn’t deterred him a bit. He’s fine when you’re around, but let him outside unsupervised and he’s up to no good. Gah![/QUOTE]

One bite and it can be a tendon, a ligament, an artery and you still let him loose. I dont get it.

he will chase and corner the horses then bite - not nip - their hind legs. He has left open wounds several times causing swelling and discomfort requiring soaking, medicating and bandaging, narrowly missing a vet visit and round of antibiotics.

I’m afraid, one day our vigilance will slip and he’ll really cause a nasty, even irreversible injury to one of the horses.

[Marshfield]

There is lots of training required before an electronic collar can be used effectively. And even then, I am not sure you can train the herding instinct out of him

[Horsegal984]

I will say I used a shock collar on my guys to keep them aways from the horses, but they never had the opportunity to learn the bad habits your’s has.

Do I think a shock collar would help? Yes. However, I do not think you are diligent enough to be successful with it, and the dog will just wind up collar smart.

Either he needs to be leashed whenever at the barn/around horses or he needs a new home without them. Once they have learned this behavior it will continue. The time to fix this was before the first bite, not after its gone on for extended time.

[S1969]

[QUOTE=Marshfield;8547251]
There is lots of training required before an electronic collar can be used effectively. And even then, I am not sure you can train the herding instinct out of him[/QUOTE]

Agreed. Seems a lot easier to keep him from having access to the horses. I don’t have a herding breed, but my dogs and my horses are separated by fences. Period.

To answer the question: could a shock collar work? Yes. But it wouldn’t be a one or two time only thing. It’s probably an every-time sort of thing…with you holding the controller - at least for a while. This is why hunting dog trainers use them extensively while training dogs - dogs have to learn (repeatedly) the rules about not grabbing birds, responding to commands to recall even when game is present, etc. because their instinct is very strong. And then they need a reward to make them willing to suppress that instinct - for hunting breeds - a retrieve is the natural reward.

I’m not sure how you can reward a herding breed if they never are allowed herd…(and they really, really want to.)

I’d probably change the game - no herding, but agility or flyball, or something else that they would want to direct that energy towards. Otherwise I think you’d be fighting a losing battle.

[SuckerForHorses]

[QUOTE=FatCatFarm;8546915]
He’s already been clocked twice and good by the horses and it hasn’t deterred him a bit. He’s fine when you’re around, but let him outside unsupervised and he’s up to no good. Gah![/QUOTE]

Well, duh! Cattle dogs aren’t bred to back down. Mine came home from the clinic 2 days after surgery and had I not had him on a leash, he would’ve been chasing the horses with his damn cone on his head, stitches and all.

One of these times, the dog isn’t going to be so lucky. Or a horse for that matter. You need to do what you need to do, to put a stop to the chasing. Otherwise, you’re going to end up with a dead dog, a permanently lame horse, or both.

[Horsegal984]

[QUOTE=SuckerForHorses;8547366]
Well, duh! Cattle dogs aren’t bred to back down. Mine came home from the clinic 2 days after surgery and had I not had him on a leash, he would’ve been chasing the horses with his damn cone on his head, stitches and all.

One of these times, the dog isn’t going to be so lucky. Or a horse for that matter. You need to do what you need to do, to put a stop to the chasing. Otherwise, you’re going to end up with a dead dog, a permanently lame horse, or both.[/QUOTE]

I remeber when your boy got clocked. And you’re 100% right, they don’t back down. It’s what I love and hate about them.

Have you seen this yet? Hilarious and truthful! http://www.dogplay.com/LaughingDogPress/ACD_1.html

[lachelle]

Can you create a fenced enclosure for him so he can have time outside but not get to the horses?

[cbv]

My cattle dog took some training (unlike my border collies who have never showed interest in herding the horses). He too is trustworthy when with us but I would never have trusted him at will without supervision when he was younger.

So they are in the house or large fenced yard unless out with us (true of all our dogs although 2 BC’s and lab have no interest in horses and horses are very dog broke).

We also have jobs that keep us away long hours but have not found that an issue with owning herding dogs. They have a large yard and each other. We take ours for romps in fields and woods on weekends and evenings when daylight long.

Our vet always comments on their fitness level and low resting heart rate.

All that said, used correctly the shock collar will work, but I don’t think it will stop the behavior if dog allowed at will unaccompanied.

[FatCatFarm]

Unclutch your pearls ladies it’s not like I come home and turn the dog out loose and then wonder why he’s chasing and biting the horses. Nor does he do it constantly. He doesn’t. Let it be noted I also have a husband and a 10 daughter who are not always as diligent as they should be about keeping tabs on the Heeler, which doesn’t help matters.

And for the record he’s been consistently disciplined for badgering the horses and it’s not something we just ignored. Read my first post. He’s been taught obedience - sit, stay, down, come, roll over; heck, he’ll even jump through a hoop for my daughter; and is happy to perform those tricks but it doesn’t stop him from wanting to herd the horses and wanting to bite them when they don’t move as he wishes them to, when the opportunity presents itself.

I’ve had other Heelers and he is by far the most determined to do what he wants. So I agree, he needs a new situation where hopefully his herding instincts will be put to good use because here, my kid, the goats and the other dogs are obviously not satisfying the need and he’s focused on the horses and then only does to the ones he feels he can intimidate like the minis and the ponies; and not the big draft crosses. He doesn’t mess with those guys.

90% of the time he’s very good. He’s something of a fatty and is not a neurotic or even an overly energetic, high strung dog. He goes out to the barn twice a day with me and is a model citizen. He’s fantastic to go trail riding with. It’s just when he doesn’t think you’re paying attention, like when my husband and daughter get home before I do and let him out and then don’t watch him or make him come right back in; or when I’m on a horse in the ring and didn’t put him up, that he’ll sneak into the pasture and go badger the horses. We’re all a bit tired of the constant vigilance. A shame, since he’s such a great dog in so many other ways; he’s just a Heeler that’s too sharp without a dedicated purpose. Unfortunately, he has zero interest in fetching or carrying or chasing balls.

[Bluey]

Do you have a herding dog trainer locally that goes to herding trials and does well, that truly is a herding dog trainer, not a wannabe one?

If you find one, look up herding trials and go watch some, many times held in conjunction with state fairs, go have your dog evaluated, see if he is truly trying to herd or just chasing merrily.

That will depend how you proceed, by teaching your dog to listen to you while herding, or by train and confine to keep the dog off stock if it is just chasing.

The better true herding dogs are headers, heeling something you teach later.
A good trainer can tell how a dog works and what is the best way to train that dog, using the behaviors it shows.

There is a reason herding dogs are kept in kennels, never let run loose, because stock is not dog toys and a herding or chasing dog will make it’s own fun with livestock.

The top herding trainer we worked with would absolutely not sell a dog, trained or puppy, to someone that would not promise two things, never to let the dog ride in the back of a pickup and never, ever put the dog where it could chase livestock, much less horses.

To get a dog with strong instincts to be attracted to livestock, then don’t handle the dog so it doesn’t use those the best way it can, letting it run loose to get in trouble, then complain about it, just doesn’t make sense.

If that dog had been started with very serious training and confining, it would now not be chasing horses.

Once it is, get a good trainer to help you.
That will also teach you enough to help any other dog you ever have.

Sounds like your dog is maturing into the normal ACD more difficult temperament, as you say having some other serious problems with aggression.
Those can become worse and even dangerous if not addressed sooner rather than later.

I hope you can get a handle on this before some more get injured.

[FatCatFarm]

Interesting Bluey, but myself, family and friends have all had ACDs over the years and most of them were good family pets and not dogs that had to be confined except when working. I have three friends who have ACDs right now that are not working dogs, they’re just farms dogs on the family farm. Two have horses and not cattle. One is my riding coach, the other a farrier. My riding coach’s parents have two, both non-working dogs who are pets.

So I don’t think I’m out of line having hoped that our guy would be one such dog as well. In 3 years, he’s tagged horses a total of 4 times. The first time it happened, I wasn’t even sure he was the culprit. The second time I was, and he was disciplined. The 3rd and 4th times happened during the same incident, and again, he was disciplined. All other attempts have been thwarted, but he does keep trying despite discipline and confinement. Our place is 17 acres fenced and he used to have the run of it but hasn’t in some time. We have LGDs who are out 24/7, one of which is an adolescent female who likes to play but whom he mostly ignores. He has constructive opportunities to get his ya-ya’s out. Unfortunately, he’s settled on harassing the horses as the opportunity presents itself.

I am already actively seeking a new situation for him. Hate it, but it seems to be for the best.

[Crockpot]

Unclutch your pearls ladies it’s not like I come home and turn the dog out loose and then wonder why he’s chasing and biting the horses. Nor does he do it constantly. He doesn’t. Let it be noted I also have a husband and a 10 daughter who are not always as diligent as they should be about keeping tabs on the Heeler, which doesn’t help matters.

He has left open wounds several times causing swelling and discomfort requiring soaking, medicating and bandaging, narrowly missing a vet visit and round of antibiotics

Yup. we are just silly pearl clutching worry worts.:uhoh: Carry on.

[cbv]

@FatCatFarm;8547472

Unclutch your pearls ladies it’s not like I come home and turn the dog out loose and then wonder why he’s chasing and biting the horses. Nor does he do it constantly. He doesn’t. Let it be noted I also have a husband and a 10 daughter who are not always as diligent as they should be about keeping tabs on the Heeler, which doesn’t help matters.

If this was directed at me I apologize, I meant no disrespect. Mine also needed constant vigilance when younger and my husband could not be trusted to provide said vigilance. I don’t have children but can imagine similar to my husband in that respect.

And that applies to shock collars and being consistent and vigilant as well. We inherited our lab who had no training and no manners. Would not chase horses but thought nothing of running under them or invading their space. Tried for over a year to train her with no luck. She was not “allowed” out unattended but would jump fence and shoot out doors. Finally one day she jumped fence and followed husband down road on his way to work.

Had no exp with shock collars but a wits end so sent her to “boot camp” for 3 weeks and received training. Made huge difference and we all live in harmony now. But only if I take charge of reinforcing and continuing with training and collar and don’t let husband (who I love dearly and who loves dogs dearly) unravel all that effort.

[Horsegal984]

My ACDs have always had run of the farm, but they have had to learn the hard and fast rule that horses are NEVER to be chased or herded. Once a dog has had that opportunity then it’s going to be a different ball game.

If your husband and daughter are not diligent enough now what makes you think that they will be diligent with a shock collar? They won’t. So no matter how good you are the dog will still get collar smart, chase and hurt the horses and get his brains kicked in.

Either rehome him, or fence him out of the pastures so he can never have the opportunity to get to them. But beware, this will likely lead to increasing frustrations and he may well start trying to chase/herd them in other situations instead.