Australian Cattle Dog won't leave the horses alone - Shock collar?

[S1969]

@FatCatFarm;8547472

Unclutch your pearls ladies it’s not like I come home and turn the dog out loose and then wonder why he’s chasing and biting the horses. Nor does he do it constantly. He doesn’t.

We’re all a bit tired of the constant vigilance.

I’m not sure to whom your post is directed; what exactly are you looking for?

Could a shock collar work? Yes, but only with more constant vigilance - at least for a while, and even then, it would depend on the drive of the dog. If they are truly driven…even shock collars won’t stop them if you’re not watching.

To be honest, I don’t really get the appeal of owning of a herding breed around horses. It would be like those threads that ask whether your hunting dog gets along with your rabbits. I own a hunting breed; their idea of “getting along” with a rabbit (or bird) would be having it for dinner.

Could it work? Sure. People claim that they do it. But it’s not natural for most hunting dogs, and sounds like a big unpleasant hassle all around.

[SuckerForHorses]

I’m not clutching any pearls. Just would hate to see your dog killed from a kick, or your horse permanently lame from a bite.

I think if the household dynamic is such that everyone cannot be diligent on the same page, it may be better if he is in a home without horses that entice chasing.

[threedogpack]

[QUOTE=FatCatFarm;8546320]
We have a wonderful 3yr old, neutered red heeler. He’s wonderful with my daughter and the cats; and good in the house, sleeping beside my bed each night.

However, he is a redhead and Heeler, so can be a handful at times. While mostly good with the other dogs and cats, he arbitrarily becomes possessive about things like a certain dish or dog bed, and has snapped hard a few times at the smaller dogs, so far causing no injury but inciting a lot of fear.

The biggest problem is that if you don’t keep an eye on him while outside, he will chase and corner the horses then bite - not nip - their hind legs. He has left open wounds several times causing swelling and discomfort requiring soaking, medicating and bandaging, narrowly missing a vet visit and round of antibiotics.

He has been caught red handed and disciplined repeatedly, but this has not deterred him. The result being that he stays confined either to a kennel or inside with us, more than he should, which probably doesn’t help with his pentup aggression when he’s out. He trail rides along with the horses great, but we’re not always trail riding.

He’s a great dog, but I am afraid that maybe he needs to be at a home with a family who is home more than we are (we’re gone 12 hours out of the day with work) though we are outside lots during the evenings and on weekends. Ideally, I think he needs to go to someone with cattle. I’m afraid, one day our vigilance will slip and he’ll really cause a nasty, even irreversible injury to one of the horses.

My last resort before rehoming him may be a shock collar, which we have not tried. Do they really help?[/QUOTE]

So let me see if I understand this right. If you watch him, he’s good. But you don’t want to watch him, so instead, you’ll shock him which requires you to watch him?

Before you go accusing ME of clutching my pearls, I don’t have pearls. I DO have a well trained, obedient ACD around livestock, dogs, cats and food.

oh wait, there is that word…trained. I don’t punish my dog, instead I reinforce what I want her to do, I train her.

you might start with training him around livestock and leaving him away when you can’t train him. Or, as you stated in subsequent posts, rehome him.

[GraceLikeRain]

I would rehome. He doesn’t sound like the right match for your lifestyle. Furthermore, it doesn’t sound like a matter of if but when he will either get killed or do permanent damage to a horse. A dog that does not stay out of pastures is a liability to everyone.

If his instinct to chase is that strong he either will not be deterred by a shock collar or will get sneakier about his actions.

[Horsegal984]

[QUOTE=threedogpack;8547634]
So let me see if I understand this right. If you watch him, he’s good. But you don’t want to watch him, so instead, you’ll shock him which requires you to watch him?

Before you go accusing ME of clutching my pearls, I don’t have pearls. I DO have a well trained, obedient ACD around livestock, dogs, cats and food.

oh wait, there is that word…trained. I don’t punish my dog, instead I reinforce what I want her to do, I train her.

you might start with training him around livestock and leaving him away when you can’t train him. Or, as you stated in subsequent posts, rehome him.[/QUOTE]

Ditto this. I think it’s entirely possible to have high drive herding breeds around horses without them trying to herd/chase/bite them. But you have to train the living snot out of them until you are 100% sure that they understand the rules. It’s five times as hard if they’ve been left to their own devices for three years. Which is basically what has happened with this boy.

Even if you train him to herd, so he learns how/where/when to do it, you still have to watch him anytime he’s around the horses. Since you have explained why this

[Marshfield]

[QUOTE=S1969;8547593]
I’m not sure to whom your post is directed; what exactly are you looking for?
To be honest, I don’t really get the appeal of owning of a herding breed around horses. It would be like those threads that ask whether your hunting dog gets along with your rabbits. I own a hunting breed; their idea of “getting along” with a rabbit (or bird) would be having it for dinner.

Could it work? Sure. People claim that they do it. But it’s not natural for most hunting dogs, and sounds like a big unpleasant hassle all around.[/QUOTE]

He’s gone now, but I kept my retired guy at home for the last few years of his life along with a companion. The corgis were all respectful and stayed out of the paddock.

[Go_Fish]

@Bluey;8547475

There is a reason herding dogs are kept in kennels, never let run loose, because stock is not dog toys and a herding or chasing dog will make it’s own fun with livestock.

??? That’s news to me and I’m sure it would have been news to my Dad who had at least 2 Heeler dogs by his side nearly all of his life. I’ve never heard of keeping herding dogs in a kennel. What would be the point of that?

OP - have you tried a muzzle?

Every good herding dog has to understand that “quit” or “down” means exactly that. Work on that command and make it sting if it doesn’t happen. The dog has no respect for you (no offense).

Heeler dogs are the most bone-headed breed of dog I’ve ever had pleasure of being around. I mean that in a good way. But stubborn takes on a whole new meaning when you have a Heeler.

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=Go Fish;8547752]
??? That’s news to me and I’m sure it would have been news to my Dad who had at least 2 Heeler dogs by his side nearly all of his life. I’ve never heard of keeping herding dogs in a kennel. What would be the point of that?

OP - have you tried a muzzle?

Every good herding dog has to understand that “quit” or “down” means exactly that. Work on that command and make it sting if it doesn’t happen. The dog has no respect for you (no offense).

Heeler dogs are the most bone-headed breed of dog I’ve ever had pleasure of being around. I mean that in a good way. But stubborn takes on a whole new meaning when you have a Heeler.[/QUOTE]

I didn’t explain that well, you are right.

When training multiple dogs to herd, they are kept when not under direct supervision in kennels, not let run loose.

If you have only one or a couple dogs in training you keep it in the house or with you, but depending on how many, you can’t supervise them properly so have to confine them when you don’t.

That is because really intense herding dogs will spend all day and night intent on finding something to herd if left to their own, unsupervised devices while around livestock.

Many dogs around here are ACDs and between 3 and 5 is when many are finally surrendered or dumped, because they become too hard to handle, especially if they want to bother livestock, when not trained properly when young.

ACDs are my favorite breed, just have seen too many that take a smart attentive owner to keep ahead of them, or they end up doing what they want and that is not always what we wan or need.

One fellow that used to bred and train GSDs long ago for obedience changed to ACDs and said those were much tougher dogs.
I saw one of his dogs, after winning an obedience class and the fellow letting him jump around him, the dog grab his shirt in play and almost rip the sleeve off and things like that, very strong and intense dogs.

I know herding trainers that won’t touch them.

The OP needs to really buckle down and confine and train this dog, or sooner or later he will have or cause a mishap while chasing horses and biting them and for that, getting some help from a good trainer would help very much.

[Bicoastal]

I second the suggestion to find a good herding trainer who has worked with ACDs. Instead of trying to smother the drive, train it so he becomes safe. Baby dogs’ first herding lessons often consist of puppy hanging off the side of a sheep. With skill, they learn that’s not how we herd.

[FatCatFarm]

@Horsegal984;8547668

It’s five times as hard if they’ve been left to their own devices for three years. Which is basically what has happened with this boy.

Seriously?! Yep, I just left him outside to do whatever the hell he pleased, 24/7. Not. :rolleyes:

[FatCatFarm]

[QUOTE=Bluey;8547768]
I didn’t explain that well, you are right.

When training multiple dogs to herd, they are kept when not under direct supervision in kennels, not let run loose.

If you have only one or a couple dogs in training you keep it in the house or with you, but depending on how many, you can’t supervise them properly so have to confine them when you don’t.

That is because really intense herding dogs will spend all day and night intent on finding something to herd if left to their own, unsupervised devices while around livestock.

Many dogs around here are ACDs and between 3 and 5 is when many are finally surrendered or dumped, because they become too hard to handle, especially if they want to bother livestock, when not trained properly when young.

ACDs are my favorite breed, just have seen too many that take a smart attentive owner to keep ahead of them, or they end up doing what they want and that is not always what we wan or need.

One fellow that used to bred and train GSDs long ago for obedience changed to ACDs and said those were much tougher dogs.
I saw one of his dogs, after winning an obedience class and the fellow letting him jump around him, the dog grab his shirt in play and almost rip the sleeve off and things like that, very strong and intense dogs.

I know herding trainers that won’t touch them.

The OP needs to really buckle down and confine and train this dog, or sooner or later he will have or cause a mishap while chasing horses and biting them and for that, getting some help from a good trainer would help very much.[/QUOTE]

This makes more sense. Unfortunately we are unsuited to provide the intensive training this dog evidently needs.

[FatCatFarm]

[QUOTE=GraceLikeRain;8547648]
I would rehome. He doesn’t sound like the right match for your lifestyle. Furthermore, it doesn’t sound like a matter of if but when he will either get killed or do permanent damage to a horse. A dog that does not stay out of pastures is a liability to everyone.

If his instinct to chase is that strong he either will not be deterred by a shock collar or will get sneakier about his actions.[/QUOTE]

This I agree with.

[Horsegal984]

[QUOTE=FatCatFarm;8548065]
Seriously?! Yep, I just left him outside to do whatever the hell he pleased, 24/7. Not. :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

I didn’t say that. But you have admitted that he has repeatedly chased (and sometimes bitten) the horses for his entire 3 years. So yes, he has been allowed to make his own choices where they’re concerned, and there are really no consequences. Sure, you yell at him if you catch him doing it, but he’s already gotten his reward, the fun of the chase.

[My_Two_Cents]

Find a good trainer and get an evaluation. Depending on the dog, a good electronic collar may just save his life. Proper timing and training is key. They are great training tools if you use them properly.

We had a very tough boneheaded springer years ago (not typical of the breed). The e collar saved his life because I was real close to ending it. The first time he got zapped he knew exactly who had reached out and touched him. He knew when the collar was on and he wore for a very long time when ever he was loose. If we couldn’t watch him he was in a kennel. He lived to be 15. He only had to wear it, I didn’t have to use it after the first couple of times. We took it off him when he wasn’t out so he didn’t get sore from the prongs.

If you really like the dog see about getting him some training. People with livestock don’t want a disobedient dog either. He sounds smart. It may work.

[SuckerForHorses]

[QUOTE=FatCatFarm;8548070]
This makes more sense. Unfortunately we are unsuited to provide the intensive training this dog evidently needs.[/QUOTE]

Then the best thing for all involved is to rehome him to someone who 1) doesn’t have livestock that he can chase, or 2) can provide the intensive training that he needs.

[FatCatFarm]

Agreed.

[Zu_Zu]

Jingles & AO you find a perfect ‘home’ for your dog ~

[Crockpot]

I have herding dogs - two at a time- for 15 plus years- Australian shepherds - on a horse farm- and only one - ONE- required more training than others to not chase the horses- -

but none of them even the herdy girl- ever wounded horses as described by the OP.

They are not allowed to go in the fields. They are not allowed to chase the horses. Period.

sign me PEARL CLUTCHER :lol:

The aussies have been geniuses to understand everything. Current one is more challenging but still would never actually ever Bite a horse.

his is not the ACDs fault- the handler is responsible for the problem/

[Altermyne]

[QUOTE=Crockpot;8548601]
this is not the ACDs fault- the handler is responsible for the problem/[/QUOTE]

yes. the end.

[Gestalt]

[QUOTE=FatCatFarm;8546866]
Heelers are a different breed of cat so to speak and I kept hoping he would grow out of it and chill out, but it’s become obvious that, that isn’t going to happen.

In his defense, he’s just doing what Heelers are bred to do. I think he is getting frustrated that the horses go to a corner and then refuse to budge, hence the biting. But yes, I’m certainly tired of it and had hoped it was something he would grow out of, but hasn’t. If he wasn’t such a good dog in so many other ways, he would already be gone. Unfortunately, I really don’t see a solution other than rehoming him. He needs a job and/or constant supervision.[/QUOTE]

Please rehome him! He just needs a real job. This is a working breed, let him find work.