AWS ; American Warmblood Society

[Melyni]

I’m sure it has been asked before, though I could not find it in a search;
What is the general opinion of the AWS as a registry? Are they considered ‘serious’ do they do a good job of inspecting and scoring breeding stock.
Should I recommend (or not) that mares approved by them for breeding be considered legitimate breeding stock?

I am asking on behalf of a European Verband who has been contacted by someone wanting them to accept a broodmare approved by AWS, and I have no idea what to tell them.
I have not done business with AWS for many years and cannot give any kind of reasonable guide as to their standards etc.

Input desired please.

[Texarkana]

http://s3.amazonaws.com/rapgenius/can_of_worms_ahead.jpg

[rugbygirl]

Which European Verband is this? I am honestly curious…seems like they might have other avenues through which to pursue this than COTH…

I kind of want to know which registry is planning to use anonymous internet opinions in any kind of decision-making process…

[Texarkana]

In all seriousness, my only experience is that I own a mare who is inspected and branded AWS. I attended her inspection 10 years ago and found that they evaluated her as critically, rigorously, and fairly as other WB inspections I have attended. Her scores at her AWS inspection were actually a little lower than anything she ever received in her dressage sport horse breed shows against open competition. (Which I know is not the same, just trying to give a reference point)

I think a lot of their stigma comes from the fact that they were willing to evaluate and inspect pretty much anything, especially in their early days. While those horses may have not received good scores in any way, it doesn’t make the registry look good when people are advertising crappy horses as “AWS.”

[Nootka]

AWR more so than AWS.

You can register anything with AWS as long as it isn’t 100% TB, Arab or Draft

"All AWS sport horses are evaluated on their own qualities and/or performance records. The AWS is open to all breeds of horses and ponies. Whether previously registered (would be recorded with AWS) or non-registered as long as the horse is breeding, training or participating in one of the four disciplines that the AWS supports (Dressage, Eventing, Jumping or Combined Driving). Types of Books

The Main Book, and Elite Book (see below) are maintained by the National Office for all registered and recorded horses. The registration provided is for the lifetime of the horse.

Main Book

For Main Book registered horses pedigree history is desirable, but not required. Main Book horses qualify through their own performance.

Elite Book

For Elite Book- pedigree/bloodline history is required. This history must provide evidence of four generations of proven, documented sport horse performance in one of the four sports supported by the AWS (see guidelines above). The horse that is to be registered is automatically included in the four generations.

Sport Pony

Sport Pony book provides a book for performance ponies. As this book grows in numbers they will have their own awards separated from the main book. There is a minimum size is 13.0 hands and a maximum for 14.2 hands."

" One or more of the following requirements must be met before applying for all Approved for Breedings Stallions or Mares:
• AWS or other recognized warmblood inspection, (i.e. Hannoverian, Oldenburg). With an inspection score of 75% or higher with no score 5 or lower.
• AWS recognized USEF/USDF All-breed in-hand score of 75% or higher, with no score 5 or lower
• AWS recognized USEF/USDF All-breed Materiale score of 75% or higher, with no score 5 or lower"

I have been to these inspections and have not been inpressed. I saw a saddlebred Stallion that was approved and he was 0.o

[JB]

I would ignore the fact she’s AWS-approved and just evaluate her in the context of whether she’s suitable - conformation, pedigree, etc - for approval with the Verband.

Some very nice mares and stallions are approved AWS. Some less than stellar are too. The good ones will (nearly) always be approved, the not so great ones will often be approved, if that helps.

I would just remove AWS from the equation and look at her as if she’s not approved anywhere.

I guess I don’t understand why the Verband is asking this. Is this trying to set up some reciprocating approval? As in - if the AWS was highly reputable, they’d accept her blindly?

[DownYonder]

[QUOTE=Melyni;8187433]
Should I recommend (or not) that mares approved by them for breeding be considered legitimate breeding stock?

I am asking on behalf of a European Verband who has been contacted by someone wanting them to accept a broodmare approved by AWS, and I have no idea what to tell them.[/QUOTE]

I am not sure why it matters who the mare is approved by. AWS will approve imported SPS mares!

And are you saying that a German Verband will approve the mare without inspecting her, just based on what other registries she is approved with? Really? Because that runs counter to what I have been told about German breeding law, and it could open the Verband up to sanctions by the German Ministry of Agriculture (unless things have changed in Germany in recent years).

The more important part of the equation is what kind of registration papers she holds, and whether every stallion for the past 5 generations meets the Verband’s requirements for stallion approval - as well as whether the registering organization does parentage verification via DNA comparison. And even then, she would need to be inspected by that European registry and enrolled into their mare books.

[camohn]

@JB;8187589

I would ignore the fact she’s AWS-approved and just evaluate her in the context of whether she’s suitable - conformation, pedigree, etc - for approval with the Verband.

Some very nice mares and stallions are approved AWS. Some less than stellar are too. The good ones will (nearly) always be approved, the not so great ones will often be approved, if that helps.

I would just remove AWS from the equation and look at her as if she’s not approved anywhere.

This ^

[MysticOakRanch]

I am actually a fan of AWS, I think they fill a niche, providing some kind of independent feedback and quality control information on breeding programs that don’t fit the European studbook requirements. Their inspection process is pretty realistic, I’ve seen a few horses that went RPSI or Old NA as well, with similar inspection results/scores/comments.

I’ve hosted a few AWS inspections over the years, and thought, in general, it was a good process, the quality horses score well, the lesser horses don’t score so well. I’ve never seen them totally reject a horse for registration- but I’ve seen plenty go into the lowest level (as foals, they use something like premiums, blue for the top, red for the good ones, and no “preferred status” for those who just make it in). I have seen them reject plenty for breeding approval (not that it matters much, since a non-approved horse can still breed and offspring can still be registred since they evaluate each individual based on its own traits). So it is good feedback for breeders (and potential buyers). I did always think they should change their name though, maybe American Sport Horse Registry?

Having said that… I wouldn’t imagine another studbook depending on their approval process (or any other registries approval process unless they were personally familiar w/ it). They are not “erkand”, so they wouldn’t fit into that definition. I guess, maybe if they look at the bloodlines themselves to ensure it meets THEIR standards (AWS has some very well bred horses in the registry, as well as some interesting breeding combinations that might not satisfy the traditional sport horse standard), maybe? I am also guessing the OP is talking about the Knabstrupper registry, not one of the traditional Warmblood registries?

[Dressagelvr]

In my mind, AWS,AWR, OLDNA, and RSPI are all pretty similar in that anything with 4 legs can make it into the lower books and their offspring can work up into the main books when bred to approved stallions (stallion approvals are a whole other discussion).

AWS is the least selective.

If I’m buying a gelding, I don’t care, but if I am buying a mare, I will not consider anything in these registries.

I am sure that there are bad European registries, but I couldn’t recommend AWS.

[dressurpferd01]

[QUOTE=Dressagelvr;8188796]
In my mind, AWS,AWR, OLDNA, and RSPI are all pretty similar in that anything with 4 legs can make it into the lower books and their offspring can work up into the main books when bred to approved stallions (stallion approvals are a whole other discussion).

AWS is the least selective.

If I’m buying a gelding, I don’t care, but if I am buying a mare, I will not consider anything in these registries.

I am sure that there are bad European registries, but I couldn’t recommend AWS.[/QUOTE]

Couldn’t have said it any better myself.

[Sonesta]

From what I saw years ago when I went to a couple of their inspections, their inspectors were the owners of the registry (mother and/or daughter) and were absolutely clueless about conformation and movement -although they could talk the talk, it was like they had no idea what they were saying. I was very much less than impressed.

[Wychwood]

I’ve seen great horses registered with them, and some not so great ones. But I really can’t take them seriously because I know a girl who had her 100% thoroughbred (although unpapered) registered with them somehow and now refers to it as a Warmblood. Just registered, not inspected, but it still discredits it in my eyes. If a mare owner is serious about breeding, they should go get her inspected with a more legitimate registry, even if the mare only makes it into the lower books.

[butiwantedapony]

I’m not sure why everyone thinks “anything with 4 legs can make it into the lower books” for OldNA/ISR, RPSI.

I need my JC registered mare to an AWR registered Stallion (who is Dutch by bloodline - by Consul out of Voltaire mare), but he was injured before he could be licensed KWPN. I have checked into registering the foal with several registries outside of AWR, and the best they can do is issue a COP - this is different than having the goal entered in the books. And mind you - a very well bred foal!

I’m not familiar with AWS, but just want to point out that iy is a misconception that anything that walks can be registered with OLdNA/ISR or RPSI.

[epowers]

[QUOTE=butiwantedapony;8194985]
I’m not sure why everyone thinks “anything with 4 legs can make it into the lower books” for OldNA/ISR, RPSI.

I need my JC registered mare to an AWR registered Stallion (who is Dutch by bloodline - by Consul out of Voltaire mare), but he was injured before he could be licensed KWPN. I have checked into registering the foal with several registries outside of AWR, and the best they can do is issue a COP - this is different than having the goal entered in the books. And mind you - a very well bred foal!

I’m not familiar with AWS, but just want to point out that iy is a misconception that anything that walks can be registered with OLdNA/ISR or RPSI.[/QUOTE]

But it’s true. They very literally will take any mare (as long as the owner’s check clears) and “record” it in the lower books, and the offspring can work their way up from there. What you’re talking about is totally different, because you have a foal by an unapproved stallion and out of an unapproved mare and are trying to get it registered, which is not at all the same thing as having a mare approved (or recorded) into the studbooks. If your “very well bred foal” is a filly, you can, regardless of registration, present her for approval to ISR/ONA, AW, or RPSI stud books when she turns three, and her foals will then be eligible for registration in those books. Even if she was in a major studbook, you would only be able to get a COP from her foal regardless of registry if you breed to an unapproved stallion.

[ASBJumper]

Then you also have the problem of many breeders/owners not understanding the difference between a COP and papers, and a mare being approved with a registry vs having registration papers with said registry.

Every other day on my FB feed I see people advertising horses as “CSH registered” or “papered CSH gelding/mare”, etc, that are by unapproved stallions or out of unapproved mares when I know full well that only foals out of TWO approved CSHA parents can get CSHA registration papers.

However, because CSHA will issue “half-CSH papers”, which are essentially a COP and nothing more, people are going around saying they have papered CSHs, which drives me crazy as it’s an insult to all the breeders who have gone to the trouble and expense of having their breeding stock inspected and approved.

I am sure the same thing happens with other registries, i.e. people selling “papered Hanoverian or Oldenburg” whatever’s when all they really have is a COP. And when most of the buying public doesn’t care, well… doesn’t provide much incentive for honesty, now does it?

Sorry, this was sort of a tangent… back to your regularly scheduled programming.

[butiwantedapony]

[QUOTE=epowers;8195195]
But it’s true. They very literally will take any mare (as long as the owner’s check clears) and “record” it in the lower books, and the offspring can work their way up from there. What you’re talking about is totally different, because you have a foal by an unapproved stallion and out of an unapproved mare and are trying to get it registered, which is not at all the same thing as having a mare approved (or recorded) into the studbooks. If your “very well bred foal” is a filly, you can, regardless of registration, present her for approval to ISR/ONA, AW, or RPSI stud books when she turns three, and her foals will then be eligible for registration in those books. Even if she was in a major studbook, you would only be able to get a COP from her foal regardless of registry if you breed to an unapproved stallion.[/QUOTE]

This is not the feedback I recieved directly from RPSI and ISR.

And mare is to be presented with foal at side - so this assumes approved mare.

If they take “anything with four legs”, wouldn’t one assume they take foals from a an unapproved mare AND unapproved stallion? That’s just not true. The most you can get is a COP. If the subsequent generations of offspring from this unapproved cross are quality and representative of the type and can be eligible to enter the books - how is this “anything with 4 legs”?

[arlosmine]

When horse shopping, for me both American Warmblood organizations are at the very bottom of the heap in terms of the registration meaning that there has been knowledge applied to the breeding of the animal.

I will always research the lineage, because I’ve had some interesting surprises, like Standardbreds and Morgans showing up. I did attend an “inspection” many years ago, where two GAITED, crooked-legged stallions were approved for breeding. It was a long time ago, but it tossed the credibility of the organization in the trash heap for me.

I dared to raise my hand and ask why…and the answer was that “this is America, and we have free choice. The breeders can choose what they want, we just register them”. I’m sure things have evolved since then, but it left a bad taste in my mouth.

[Dressagelvr]

And mare is to be presented with foal at side - so this assumes approved mare.

The problem is that “anything with 4 legs” can be approved for breeding in the lowest books.

So, they justify this by saying that even though it is a grade mare of completely unknown type, it is only approved in the lowest book.

What they don’t say as easily is…

When the mare is bred to one of their approved stallions (who might also be in the lowest book), their resulting foal can move out of the low books. So, in 2 generations, you could have a horse that is 1/2 unknown type in a main book.

[vandenbrink]

A studbook is a place to register horses…a community of breeders, and an office to issue birth certificates for horses. Look at the horse in front of you. I’ve seen trappy gaited, ugly upside down built horses with Hanoverian brands and ain mare book papers.

Most studbooks have a “bottom” book where the ones of questionable pedigree end up, and some perceived “elite” studbooks take mares without requiring inspection.

I look at the pedigree and the quality…and want some form of proof of pedigree…that’s my requirement.

I’m not familiar with AWS, but expect they’ve hired qualified inspectors to evaluate the horses. If a foreign studbook is looking at the mare inspection certificate I expect the scores would be similar as those from the European studbooks and you can’t take those numbers as absolutes, but the strengths and weaknesses and ballparks scores would be similar.