Bad dressage...what do you do with horse?

[PaperPony]

What do you do with an event horse that has bad dressage / will not accept the contact?

Have had OTTB for 3 years and brought him along from BN --recently finished our first Prelim. He is 11 years old, has done a ton of events now, dressage shows, clinics, jumper shows, etc.

Horse has been taken to specialist vet (and multitude of “regular” vets), has had dental work, been treated for ulcers, etc. I do not think he is in any kind of serious pain as he jumps very happily around Prelim courses.

Initially had a lot of nervousness/tension in dressage, but has recently become more calm and levelheaded, but will still not truly accept contact. I have tried every bit/bridle known to man, taken as many dressage lessons as I can (which admittedly is hard to do around here). Tried various warm-up techniques. Tried lunging in side-reins.

He absolutely hates dressage. The more I work on anything resembling flat work that isn’t hacking, the more miserable he becomes and our dressage seems to get worse throughout the season. He will go around nicely on a semi loose rein, but the second we start trying to do multiple transitions in a small area, take up a contact, etc, it all goes to hell and he will run sideways and even try to rear. We have made some big improvements over the past few years, he has no problem with lateral work, can do canter serpentines on both leads, etc., but the basics of his walk, trot, and canter, are still pretty bad. On collective marks I routinely get 7’s on gaits (have even received an 8), but always have a 3 on submission.

Not an option to send him to a pro as there are none here. I am not a terrible rider and have scored in low 30’s in dressage routinely on other horses. I have taken him to three vets and they cannot find anything wrong with him. Vet is tired of seeing this horse.

What do you do with a horse like this? Even though he’s a XC machine, he’s not saleable as an event horse because his dressage scores are bad and he is not tolerant of rider mistakes. Teens that are doing well on the local jumper circuit cannot take him over a X-rail safely without him becoming a camel and taking off (he does not do this with me). Not very well behaved foxhunting either. I cannot afford another horse unless this one sells (and that amount can be used on the next one). At what point should I just accept my fate of having super terrible dressage and learn to event at the bottom of the board?

[kcmel]

I would send him to a good pro, no matter how far he had to go. At least then you would know if there was hope. Good luck!

[asterix]

I know you said he’s been to lot of vets but have you had a dental specialist look at him? I have a friend whose horse had had regular dental care yearly but when he started losing weight she took him to the vet school for a workup – he had very serious dental problems and could barely chew.

And, saddle fit and chiro? Just checking all the boxes…
It really does sound like a pain reaction…

[PaperPony]

I should add that I traveled 18 hrs and went and trained with a very well known and well-respected trainer for two weeks and that was a terrible failure. He urged me to give the horse away or see if he would be a trail horse. We went on to improve on our own with help of closer-in trainer and successfully moved up to prelim after having almost one-year to mentally and physically rehab from that experience. Suggestions on names are still welcome, but most “good pros” that I know won’t waste their time on a horse that scores in the 40’s in dressage and will probably only go prelim.

[Bogie]

I had a horse with a thick tongue and a low palate. He hated to take contact. I ended up riding him bitless most of the time – he would take “contact” and be “through” his body and it helped his attitude tremendously and allowed him to strengthen his topline and learn to move more correctly. I would slip one of the bits that he minded the least into his mouth if we needed to do a dressage test.

Best bitless solution for him was a side pull configuration. We then started to put the bit on the bridle (without the reins attached) so he could get used to having it in his mouth.

[Pipkin]

Oh my god - thoroughbreds and contact, a complicated relationship to say the least! It sounds like you’ve ruled out pain (can always do a bute trial to be sure) so I think you will need to approach this through schooling.

I agree that the easiest route would be to send to a pro, but 3 years isn’t ages and I reckon you can crack this, though the help of a good instructor is probably pretty essential. Have you ever ridden a professionally schooled horse? So you know what to aim for? Take a nice, soft, following contact, and ride forward, don’t worry about where his head is or what he is doing, just keep a consistent feel. And when I say take a contact, plop your hands out in front of you and ride him into it! You will probably have to play the long game and keep this up for at least a couple of weeks before even attempting to ask him to come round. To an extent they just have to realise that this is the way things are, and no amount of flailing or contorting will change that. Remember it all comes from the leg. Stage one is having a soft contact with him having his head where he wants it (which is probably like a giraffe!) then in a flat but relaxed outline (think Hunters) then long and low, and then you can think about bringing him up from that. I mostly school mine out on hacks, and that approach may help your boy.

[SuzieQNutter]

If dressage is done correctly you end up with a happy horse.

It is easier to train than it is to retrain.

With your boy what happens if you train dressage on your way home from riding out?

[PaperPony]

I have tried to warm up in the field, do some long rein trotting, canter in half-seat, then slowly work into more circles and transitions. He will get progressively more tense/reactive and transitions will get worse to the point at which I have to say “that’s good enough” or quit.

I have had some good dressage lessons and the occasional good dressage day, just not lately.

Also, I have ridden (and still ride) many other horses and do not have this problem. I know that there is something ‘wrong’ with him and he has been this way since the day I got him.

[Foxglove]

Since I don’t know much about dressage, I will answer your question anyway --consider a foxhunting home. Our hunt club has more former event horses than any other discipline. The MF rides a former event horse who didn’t like dressage, and most of the male hunt members are event riders or former event riders. One occasionally sees an actively competing event horse out --but not too often as they are more suited to the quick pace of eventing. If you have a hunt close by, consider hacking out (by invitation) and see how your horse likes it --but do be cautious --hunting is addicting. You both my end up in the field and off the course!

Foxglove

[LookmaNohands]

He kind of sounds like a horse I used to have! He DETESTED dressage but could jump the moon! I kept him busy by never schooling in one place for more than about 20 minutes. I did lots of “dressage” while hacking and on hills. I also mixed his flatwork in with jumping. I even rode him directly behind another horse while schooling dressage which required good communication between we two riders. That was amusing and kind of worked too.

He could pull very good scores on his gaits–when he managed to keep his feet on the ground. Seriously, you haven’t lived until you have gotten multiple “ones” in a dressage test! He was even a challenge to turn out sometimes. Would look you in the eye with the chain over his nose and basically give you the finger and then launch himself into the air–all 17 hands of him. But he was a sweet soul everywhere else and in a weird way I had to admire him for his conviction to his insanity.

He was a thrill to jump a lot of the time. I lost him suddenly two years ago and age 22 and miss him terribly every day!

I work with problem horses and often find body issues vets don’t find. I am adamant about keeping proper posture in their backs as many horses can’t lift through there and have tension and soreness because of it. I am sure you have checked the saddle fit. And I am sure you have tried putting him on anti-imflammatories to see if that helps, but it is worth it if you haven’t. I have done this again recently with a horse I have in training and, whatdoyaknow, he is better on them. We don’t know what is going on but obviously something.

I am a BIG believer in taking bits out of their mouths and schooling in hackamores (I have six at last count) I also use a TTouch balance rein which is incredibly helpful. It is NOT a neck strap but used as a second rein. It rebalances them without you having to get into their mouth and you can reschool them that way.

http://www.ttouch.com/shop/index.php?productID=213

I understand what you are dealing with and I know what it is like to event and be at the bottom of the standings. But you learn a lot from your horse while you are down there! I consoled myself by using glitter in his tail. It wasn’t like looks mattered at that point and, damn it, I like glitter!

It is supposed to be fun after all!

[SuzieQNutter]

[QUOTE=PaperPony;8261817]
I have tried to warm up in the field, do some long rein trotting, canter in half-seat, then slowly work into more circles and transitions. He will get progressively more tense/reactive and transitions will get worse to the point at which I have to say “that’s good enough” or quit.

I have had some good dressage lessons and the occasional good dressage day, just not lately.

Also, I have ridden (and still ride) many other horses and do not have this problem. I know that there is something ‘wrong’ with him and he has been this way since the day I got him.[/QUOTE]

Yes there is something ‘wrong’ with the horse we have as well.

But he is worth his weight in gold as I can put my hubby on him and not have a 2nd thought and not even have to watch and just know that they won’t part company.

I do know what I am doing and I have persisted. It has taken more than 10 times longer to train him. Everything you see now is something that has taken me soooooo long to train and I am saying EVERYTHING. How to stand. How to walk. How to lead. Let’s just say he is 1 or 2 sandwiches short of a picnic!

But we are getting there. We have our first lesson on Sunday. We are both having a lesson on him and dare I say that in trot he is mow impressive. Now to start working on canter!!!

[Hilary]

Two ideas - are you sitting on him? Some of them HATE the seat. And if this is the case there are a couple of options. One is to fake it - and just sit on your thighs, and the other is to really study Mary Wanless and learn to ride with a different type of seat.

Some horses just will not tolerate you ‘plugging in your seat bones’ with a German type of dressage seat.

The other is the nathe bit and going back to step one with “this is contact, and it doesn’t hurt and isn’t scary”. The nathe is so bendy that it allows them to learn about contact without feeling trapped.

If you don’t love riding him, then maybe find someone who doesn’t care about dressage but loves that he jumps around prelim clean. They are out there. you won’t get top dollar for him, but he won’t be unsellable the way a horse who stops is.

[Simbalism]

My TB mare has a very small mouth and really hates wearing a bit. She would drag her head down and really lean on me. I ride her the majority of the time in a short shank hackamore. When I was competing, I would use the bit only for my test and then back into the hackamore for jumping. The bit I used was a Happy Mouth mullen.

[subk]

If you want to fix him you need to go back and start at the very beginning.

For many OTTBs you just can’t put a leg on each side then close the front door and not have this type of reaction. It’s not a 2 week fix. If you’re lucky you can do it in six months instead of a year.

First you re-teach him to go with his neck out with no/minimal contact. You might have to do this in a more confined ring because even if he takes off you need to slow him with your body not your hands. Then you entice him to accept a little contact while keeping his head at this natural position. You ride him for a couple months with constant, consistent, contact with his head and neck out. You are making a new bargain with him–if he will accept a minimal amount of hand you won’t shut the front door on him. You have to rebuild that trust. He flips out now because he’s been boxed in and he doesn’t trust you.

After he can hack about you start niggling with him to stretch and reach for the bit at the walk. (YES! You teach him to stretch BEFORE you ever get him in any kind of
a frame!) At first he’ll do it by accident for a step, so you scratch his withers and tell him he’s a good boy and then try to get him to do it again. Build on that. Eventually you can walk and trot and go back and forth from neutral head to stretch then back again to a neutral position. (This is where the dressage stretchy circle comes from–and why it is an indicator of proper contact.) Generally what happens from here is they will begin to “go on the bit” on their own, but when they do for a few steps you soften and let them stretch–i.e. the front door is still open.

Most people teach young horses to go in a frame and then they teach them to stretch. (Or worse they think stretching is a party trick they need to teach for certain dressage tests.) But the stretch into the hand is the most fundamental element of a horse on correct contact. TBs tend to pulled into “a frame” but because they really don’t know how to stretch they feel locked into place. That makes some of them panic.

But the plan is emersion. I don’t think you can do a few days here and there and still compete and school at your current level. After I did my first CCI* on a horse that hated dressage and sounds alot like yours. I came home and the (pure) dressage instructor I had recently started working with looked at me and said, “do you want me to just continue to patch you up and make the best of bad basics or do you want to commit between now (Nov) and May and go back and fix it from the ground up.” I learned more that winter about how to ride a TB dressage (and just dressage) than I’d learned in the 20 previous years. Our dressage got significantly better. Never great, there were to many scars from doing it badly for so long, but the education was fantastic for both of us.
,
If you don’t want to do the work, put him in a hackamore and see if he’ll hunt.

[TB_or_not_TB]

^^^ Yes.

I can’t tell you how many people I see (pros especially) who pull a horse into a frame and skip the long and low. Even horses right off the track. It drives me nuts because the only way the horse can maintain a contact that way is through hollowing the back, because they simply do not have the strength to carry themselves yet. This absolutely must be developed first, as subk says, on a long rein through stretching and the gradual build up of the hind end. It could honestly take three years just to build the muscle necessary to do quality lateral work for a horse who has done nothing but race on the forehand. Since you haven’t been able to have a consistent contact in that timeframe, it’s unlikely that your horse has the ability yet to do the dressage work you’re asking for. By compressing him in the bridle without that foundation, you’re forcing him into discomfort with no place to go. I’d rear, too.

Tense horses need an open door. Box them in and you are asking for trouble. Build his trust of the bridle through stretching and through lengthening his body, not compressing it. After a few months where he is really working through the back, you can slowly start to ask him to rock back and pick himself up for short periods of time. Muscle is built by contraction and release, not just contraction, so the stretching is key. In other words, ignore what his head is doing and ride the hind end. Contact with a horse like this may also be much softer than what you’re used to. Some go with just the weight of the reins rather than the “strong feel” that locks them in a frame.

ETA check out pain, too, especially in his back. It’s often a vicious cycle. Barring significant mental trauma, I have never found a horse who is incurably bad at dressage. It has always come out to be pain or incorrect training or a combination of both. Worst one I worked with was an imported Int eventer who had spent his life being ridden hollow and never scoring terribly well. They had finally resorted to draw reins to get him ring ready because he was so resistant to contact. Poor thing was so stiff in the back it was awful. It took 8 months for me to start him over and build him up slowly on the flat. Scored low 30s on his first test back in competition, which isn’t great but was a massive improvement from where he was.

[netg]

[QUOTE=Bogie;8261774]
I had a horse with a thick tongue and a low palate. He hated to take contact. I ended up riding him bitless most of the time – he would take “contact” and be “through” his body and it helped his attitude tremendously and allowed him to strengthen his topline and learn to move more correctly. I would slip one of the bits that he minded the least into his mouth if we needed to do a dressage test.

Best bitless solution for him was a side pull configuration. We then started to put the bit on the bridle (without the reins attached) so he could get used to having it in his mouth.[/QUOTE]

I used a sidepull and bit together, riding with two reins, mostly using the sidepull and gradually increasing bit use. It both helped my horse develop correct muscling and start to get the right idea of contact. And it has taken another 2 1/2 years since starting that to get him where he’s finally “normal” about contact. He will always be light in the contact, but I suspect as a youngster on the track he found being held back painful and started ducking behind the bit as a solution to protect himself. He would start bucking when he got close to honest contact, because giving up that self-protective position of behind the bit was scary to him.

I’ve had him with my trainer for a few months now, because I could finally get it after riding through a bucking spree about 40 minutes into a ride. My trainer managed to get him basically unconcerned about contact with another 3 months of work. Now, if I want to ride on a loopy rein I can, but if I want to take contact of any strength - no problem, I can. Total, it has been more than 5 years.

There is zero physical related to his contact issues. (He has physical problems related to other issues, though!) It was all mental, probably relating to pain as a 2 year old when held back, so physical in the very distant past which became mental. So while it may be physical, it may be mental and require a really good pro to help fix it.

[CHT]

How is his flat work between jumps? Will he accept contact then?

Do you use a different saddle when you school “dressage”?

[HorseKrazy]

[QUOTE=Hilary;8261867]
Two ideas - are you sitting on him? Some of them HATE the seat. And if this is the case there are a couple of options. One is to fake it - and just sit on your thighs, and the other is to really study Mary Wanless and learn to ride with a different type of seat.

Some horses just will not tolerate you ‘plugging in your seat bones’ with a German type of dressage seat.

The other is the nathe bit and going back to step one with “this is contact, and it doesn’t hurt and isn’t scary”. The nathe is so bendy that it allows them to learn about contact without feeling trapped.

If you don’t love riding him, then maybe find someone who doesn’t care about dressage but loves that he jumps around prelim clean. They are out there. you won’t get top dollar for him, but he won’t be unsellable the way a horse who stops is.[/QUOTE]

Took ok the words out of my mouth, great post

[AKB]

As a teenager and young adult, my daughter had a couple of TBs who were terrific jumpers but would not do dressage for their professional owners. The previous owners ran them up through Preliminary with few jumping penalties and terrible dressage scores. Both horses were hot heads. They were great for my daughter to get some eventing mileage, as we could not afford a horse with a good competition record.

If the horse is safe enough for a fearless kid with a good seat, little money and no particular desire to win, this may be his ideal placement. You won’t get a lot of money for him, but he will hopefully have a good home where he is appreciated. Our two happily lived out their long lives with us.

[HiJumpGrrl]

I am just posting in solidarity. I know a horse like this–nothing wrong with him, just goes around with his head sideways and inverted like a llama. It happens. Find the best way to make do, and keep doing! Prelim with bad dressage is my life goal, after all

BTW, I, too have gotten an 8 on gaits and 3 on submission. Recently, even.