There’s absolutely a market for a horse that is sound and brave with 10-12 clean Prelim runs in a row and lousy dressage. I just saw one that sounds similar sell for $25k. But it needs to be able to be ridden by an average rider (if not a packer) over fences.
My last horse was a headshaker, so I get it. He could jump anything but on a bad day we were lucky to break 50 in dressage.
My event horse that hated dressage is now my whipper-in horse. He won at Training Level eventing and could be very competitive in the dressage phase, but he bloody didn’t like it. And he got pretty good at expressing that, to the point that we had a judge blow her whistle on our dressage test because, and I quote, “I fear for your safety.”
He is happy as a clam as a staff horse, prefers that to being in traffic in the field, and he’s a good at it. I can stand on the side of a highway with trucks flying by and he is steady as a clam and focused on hounds. Put him in a ring, and a car goes by at a distance, and he spooks and bucks. He made his opinion clear, and I listened.
At some point if you have exhausted the vet and training options, we do owe it to the horse to listen to them. Whether it’s a home with an eventer who wants to get xc miles and doesn’t care about and doesn’t drill dressage, or someone who likes hunter paces, or someone who whips-in, there is probably a really good fit out there for him somewhere.
Well you may not like my answer but I would look closely at you as a rider. He is a horse who will likely never have a strong connection with contact but you need to sort out how to ride HIM.
I have a now broodmare who I routinely got 8s and 9s on her gaits and 4s for submissions. (Through Prelim too). The tests would start with 7s and 8s and end with 4s. But if I only knew then what I know now as learned from her and a few horses afterwards.
In her case and with my current horse, you can not have ANY tension in your arm. The feel you take of the contact is SUPER light and I’m always working on long and low. It is a really particular sort of ride and very hard to do and do well.
To me…you work on it. And figure out what works for the both of you. And learning that with this horse will help you ride others. And you pick events with TOUGH xc so you hopefully move up after dressage … And yes, my mare was a very good jumper (although NOT easy to ride…very much a pro ride) and more than once was DFL after dressage and finished with a primary color ribbon.
I guess I don’t necessarily buy that horses don’t like dressage. All I do is restart and reschool Tb’s and boy have I had some really tough horses come in that were adverse to the contact in a variety of ways. My toughest horse was one that I bought personally and it took me a year to get him to go into the contact but he went from a tail ringing angry mess to a horse that enjoyed dressage.
I personally go all the way back. Start with a nathe bit and lunging. I love vienna reins and then I graduate to a pessoa system. With many of these horses they have to have the rider taken out of the equation and just learn to relax. Proper lunging does wonders for getting a horse to accept the contact and use the proper muscles.
I will also say that 9x out of 10 those who tell me their horses hate flatwork simply really don’t understand how to ride proper flatwork on a horse that isn’t established in the contact. Finding a trainer who can actually teach this is really impossible and most trainers do just throw their hands up because you do have to go back to to square one. I can’t tell you how many lessons I have taken that are just walk trot lessons on green horses and I LOVE them but a lot of people just want to jump and they aren’t going to pay a trainer to go back to step one and teach them and the horse how to do it right.
If you know anyone that specializes in teaching tough Tb’s how to do good flatwork those are the trainers I would seek out. I have met plenty of accomplished dressage trainers that couldn’t ride my Tb’s worth a damn and made them way way worse so understanding how a TB can tick is almost more important when you have a horse that has violent reactions to flatwork.
I know this scenario.
My former horse was this. Unlike you, I had easy access to lots of good pros and he spent A LOT of time with a variety of them, all trying to help me sort him out. We would make breakthroughs, only to have a breakthrough stop working a week or month down the road. Lots and lots of rides ended in tears. I withdrew from a few events after dressage because he had been so miserable, I saw no point in continuing (even though he loved to run and jump). He got multiple lameness work ups (he did have some minor back issues, but everyone agreed that they really weren’t enough to make him as biligerent as he could be, especially considering he would run and jump big jumps with anyone on him). He did lots of long and low, we played with bits and bridles and saddles. We tried to keep schooling brief. We tried to kick his butt. Nothing really worked. If the work asked of him resembled anything approaching would should have been correct work for his level (a solid prelim horse) there was going to be a show.
I got tired of dealing with it. Some of the responses on this thread are very similar to responses I got back then. But there comes a point you have to decide what will make you and your horse happiest. If you’re ok DFL every time, or continuing to try and find the magic word to get him to come around, then keep on keeping on. I, personally, got very tired of DFL, ending every ride in tears, and being pissed over a horse I adored. Ans I knew he was just as miserable as I was. So, I put him on the market and worked at finding him a job he could do happily. He was actually days away from his first time out hunting (having already done the trail rides and gone roading with hounds), when he ended up selling to a lower level amateur who could care less about the dressage and just wanted something safe and game to jump learn the ropes on. That was Vernon. He did have going for him that he would stay reasonable in a training level/Hunter frame and would do all the “stuff”. You just couldn’t ask for a proper frame.
Will he hunt? If so, sell him as a Foxhunter which will give you a nice budget to find a new partner.
He needs a new job.
Can you ship him to a pro that’s far away if there are none around there?
It sounds like you’re really between a rock & a hard place with him. He’s a tough ride over fences, so you can’t sell him to a junior who just wants a safe jumping horse. And that flatwork sounds really painful to school.
I think Jess (Jlee) is right on with her post. It may take a long time and patience with him. The idea of just sending him off to a pro because someone is a “pro” sounds like a recipe for disaster.
Finding someone that is successful with your type of horse would help, or as Jess suggested going all the way back to the beginning might bring success, but it will take time. You already know he is a good jumper so backing off for a while and putting in the time needed sounds like it might be worth it.
There are people on the BB like Jess, (and many others!) that successfully and gently get through to these horses with amazing results. If they can’t they usually do find the underlying cause and then find the most suitable home for those horses.
If Jess could link to some of her blog about the horse she mentioned above, it would be great. It was a lesson in figuring out a really tough horse with amazing results.
My point was that the OP asked what do you do with this type of horse…and my response is you learn from them.
My mare and to a lesser extent my current horse are not dressage lovers. They are NOT easy rides…but in many ways, they are perfect teachers. They let me know right away if I have any tension in my arms or if I’m not being correct.
This type of horse I think is the hardest to ride (ones that don’t take a contact) and even harder to do good test on…so it is up to you and your goals. Me…I don’t care about ribbons. I got better…my scores got better and I did end up being competitive. BUT I had to up my riding skills.
If you ruled out pain…and he is fine with side reins…then you do have to change how you ride if you want to improve. You have to take out the slack of the reins but keep the contact as light and following as it would be on loose reins. HARD to do. You have to not focus on their head and front end. These horse can not take feeling trapped by your hand…you have to earn their trust so they can learn to trust the contact (it will first be without the rider lunging and then ONLY with a rider with a very soft following arm). And it takes TIME and calm patient work from you…but in many ways, these horses will teach you more than all the lessons in the world. They tell you right away what you are doing wrong.
They are not easy. And if you don’t want to deal with it…then you find them a different job and get a horse that is easier for you to ride.
BFNE, well said!
Yes and yes. Have tried schooling flat work in jump saddle, but it isn’t too different.
[QUOTE=PaperPony;8262499]
Yes and yes. Have tried schooling flat work in jump saddle, but it isn’t too different.[/QUOTE]
I never found that helped with these horses unless your dressage saddle doesn’t fit. There is NOT a quick fix to this. Honestly…you have moved up from BN to Prelim in 3 years. He has gotten calmer…I’d say you are making a lot of great progress.
[QUOTE=bornfreenowexpensive;8262101]
Well you may not like my answer but I would look closely at you as a rider. He is a horse who will likely never have a strong connection with contact but you need to sort out how to ride HIM.
I have a now broodmare who I routinely got 8s and 9s on her gaits and 4s for submissions. (Through Prelim too). The tests would start with 7s and 8s and end with 4s. But if I only knew then what I know now as learned from her and a few horses afterwards.
In her case and with my current horse, you can not have ANY tension in your arm. The feel you take of the contact is SUPER light and I’m always working on long and low. It is a really particular sort of ride and very hard to do and do well.
To me…you work on it. And figure out what works for the both of you. And learning that with this horse will help you ride others. And you pick events with TOUGH xc so you hopefully move up after dressage … And yes, my mare was a very good jumper (although NOT easy to ride…very much a pro ride) and more than once was DFL after dressage and finished with a primary color ribbon.[/QUOTE]
This is all so very accurate.
Look to you. Find an instructor who will concentrate on you and how you effect the horse. Some horses will tolerate the “do it now” rider, others , it’s all in the asking.
[QUOTE=bornfreenowexpensive;8262464]
My point was that the OP asked what do you do with this type of horse…and my response is you learn from them.[/QUOTE]
This is really a pretty cool opportunity to up your game.
This fundemental concept of a horse moving into and accepting contact is the biggest thing I see that is most often missing in eventing dressage. Dare I say it? Most LL riders don’t get it. Most LL horses are not really connected correctly.
There are lots of horses that do really well in our sport going around in a “frame,” but not truly correct. But especially if you want to be successful as a LL rider this is what separates those exceptional dressage scores from the rest. It’s a concept that is physically and mentally tougher for the OTTB, but is the real key to making them happy in the work. I think WBs are generally more compliant and don’t have the expressive reaction that the more sensitive TBs have to getting the front door shut on them.
I’ll even go as far as to say I think it is that lack of understanding and training of this basic concept that has stymied the US Eventing Team dressage at the international level. Not enough horses that are getting this training from the beginning, that then have to be re-trained. It’s limiting the pool of upper level horses. We have the horse flesh. I just don’t think we have enough people starting horses that know what they are doing…
Seriously, take this horse as an opportunity.
I don’t know, the horse is going Prelim. I would think that would equate plenty of time in the saddle and if he jumps clean XC and stadium does it really mean it is a rider issue?
[QUOTE=enjoytheride;8263035]
I don’t know, the horse is going Prelim. I would think that would equate plenty of time in the saddle and if he jumps clean XC and stadium does it really mean it is a rider issue?[/QUOTE]
yes. I have MORE than one horse who was happy to jump around Prelim…even intermediate…but their dressage to get that level of their jumping typically lagged several years behind.
This is what makes this sport hard…it is 3 different disciplines. And IME, most TBs “get” the jumping far far faster than they “get” contact and doing well in dressage.
My mare was a long rangy horse…getting her to sit, and shift her balance back for collection in dressage took YEARS…and was never easy, especially in a small dressage ring. But trot 4’6"…jump a course at 3’9"…do Prelim xc…super easy (she moved up from novice to Prelim in one year). Part was her (needing time to develop strength)…but also part was that I as a rider was better over fences. I wasn’t bad at dressage, and could score well on an easier horse (hell…I could even ride some harder dressage horses because I wasn’t afraid to go forward and didn’t balance on the reins)…but she was difficult and it is my weaker phase.
This is not uncommon.
Posting in solidarity as well, my horse is not happy in the dressage ring. I do a lot of flat work with him and a score under 40 for us is good. It can be frustrating and I usually don’t look at the scores till the end of the day but he is awesome jumping, very honest and very safe.
I did take him up to prelim and our dressage scores stayed about the same or a little better. At novice, didn’t get great placings but at training level if the x-country or stadium was tougher we generally moved up. Same with prelim, just about always moved up into the ribbons, especially since he could make the time. Yeh, it can be frustrating and a bit disappointing after the dressage but I was always so thrilled and excited after the jumping phases that all would be ‘forgiven’ for the dressage test.
Am I ever going to win? No, but I have fun jumping with him and he has fun doing it as well. He gave me the opportunity to go prelim and felt very safe doing so. When I bought him, there was no intent to sell him down the road so I figured I can deal with it.
I think that since he’s only 11, and the OP has moved him up to Prelim in three years, that the dressage will come. The op can always divert this winter to dressage lessons from a dressage trainer.
I think you can sometimes pick your vice, especially with a budget eventer. Do you want a horse that is terrible in dressage, or one that will not jump ditches? A horse that is bad in dressage, or one that knocks 8 rails down?
I think something that can move up the levels that fast, with an amateur rider, probably doesn’t have the personality to plunk around the dressage ring well at this stage and if it can navigate a prelim course without making people gasp it isn’t that big of a deal. I think the dressage will catch up, and if it doesn’t, there’s probably a line of people behind the horse with a checkbook wanting something that can pack them around Prelim and they could care less about the dressage. An XC schoolmaster.
However, the OP seems to say the horse isn’t suitable as a jumper which does make me pause. If nobody else can stay on him (especially someone jumping 3’ 6") that might indicate a problem.
[QUOTE=enjoytheride;8263631]
However, the OP seems to say the horse isn’t suitable as a jumper which does make me pause. If nobody else can stay on him (especially someone jumping 3’ 6") that might indicate a problem.[/QUOTE]
OP said local jumper kids couldn’t ride him. That maybe makes him a “pro” type ride on the flat and over fences. My horse was the same but since I was better over fences, we progressed well over fences and the dressage took longer. I agree though, the OPs dressage will improve as it has in 3 years. It takes time. But doubt this horse will ever be an ammy/kid packer. The OP can still have fun and learn a ton from this horse.
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