I guess I’m not competitive enough, but I’d be pretty happy going around Prelim… even with a bottom half dressage score!
However, if you want to win, or just don’t like the ride… move on. It sounds like you’re convinced that you’ve done everything you could.
Could you expand on why you think he wouldn’t like hunting? You said he likes hacking, and he likes jumping.
I have only done Novice, but AFTER I retired my horse from eventing due to soundness issues, I tried him in a Micklem with a ported Myler bit (MB33) (another fat tongued horse), and he put his head down and accepted contact for the first time ever. The MB 33 is not legal for dressage, but some of the Mylers with ports are. You can rent a Myler from horse rider etc. I wish I had figured this out while we were competing :).
I may get killed for this suggestion, but have you tried giving him Ace before riding?
Ace will calm his brain down, and perhaps his anxiety. If you rode with Ace for 3 or 4 times in a row, will his worry and resistance decrease?
If so, you now know you need to somehow disconnect his fear from his performance. I know you have tried lots of things, but perhaps you might want to go with a long acting tranq. during a down period (of course you cannot show on it). Slow his brain down as you are working on the basics (I agree that long and low comes before putting him in a frame). Whatever training methods you use, you need to get him into a frame of mind where he can listen and learn.
People who have performance anxiety use drugs to help them through it. Using the same modality for retraining a horse is not an unreasonable option.
[QUOTE=PaperPony;8261817]
I have tried to warm up in the field, do some long rein trotting, canter in half-seat, then slowly work into more circles and transitions. He will get progressively more tense/reactive and transitions will get worse to the point at which I have to say “that’s good enough” or quit.
I have had some good dressage lessons and the occasional good dressage day, just not lately.
Also, I have ridden (and still ride) many other horses and do not have this problem. I know that there is something ‘wrong’ with him and he has been this way since the day I got him.[/QUOTE]
He has been like this from the beginning and after 3 years is still telling you he doesn’t like it. Since riding is a partnership , you find something he enjoys doing and do it. Or sell him to someone who will.
I would xray the head. I know it sounds crazy, but my mare was the same, turns out she had a fractured tooth under the gum where the bit spot is. One day a piece of it peeked out and I called the vet. Sure enough, it was a big chunk causing significant nerve damage. She is a new horse now.
Coupled with an excellent dressage trainer, we have worked through the fear of pain and rebuilding all the muscles she gained from protecting herself. Worth a look.
[QUOTE=2LaZ2race;8264561]
I guess I’m not competitive enough, but I’d be pretty happy going around Prelim… even with a bottom half dressage score!
However, if you want to win, or just don’t like the ride… move on. It sounds like you’re convinced that you’ve done everything you could.
Could you expand on why you think he wouldn’t like hunting? You said he likes hacking, and he likes jumping.[/QUOTE]
I have foxhunted a lot on other horses and taken this horse twice. He would do fine as a whip horse, but hates other horses coming up behind him. Much of our early dressage problems were due to him getting very nervous in warm-up because of the other horses surprising him when trying to pass in the warm-up ring. No market for foxhunters around here anyway and drafts are the most desirable.
[QUOTE=PaperPony;8266297]
I have foxhunted a lot on other horses and taken this horse twice. He would do fine as a whip horse, but hates other horses coming up behind him. Much of our early dressage problems were due to him getting very nervous in warm-up because of the other horses surprising him when trying to pass in the warm-up ring. No market for foxhunters around here anyway and drafts are the most desirable.[/QUOTE]
Have you tried working with him in a way to lessen his worry about horses coming up from behind? I work successfully with spooky horses who are afraid of things behind them. I do many different things including ground driving and having people walk/run/shuffle up from behind with treats. They have to learn to turn their heads a little so they can see what it is. I do a bunch of other things as well.
Just a thought.
[QUOTE=PaperPony;8266297]
I have foxhunted a lot on other horses and taken this horse twice. He would do fine as a whip horse, but hates other horses coming up behind him. Much of our early dressage problems were due to him getting very nervous in warm-up because of the other horses surprising him when trying to pass in the warm-up ring. No market for foxhunters around here anyway and drafts are the most desirable.[/QUOTE]
At least you tried!
Seems like you’re in a very tough area. I’m in the Mid Atlantic and there’s a market for almost anything here! Can you send him somewhere to be sold? Maybe if he was marketed in a different geographical area he’d find an appropriate home faster.
[QUOTE=PaperPony;8261722]
What do you do with an event horse that has bad dressage / will not accept the contact?
What do you do with a horse like this?
At what point should I just accept my fate of having super terrible dressage and learn to event at the bottom of the board?[/QUOTE]
If you’re having fun at Prelim, just keep going. Dressage scores aren’t worth the paper they’re written on. 
What matters is how training at home shows up as success in XC and SJ. That’s the heart of the sport, and even if your hard work doesn’t show up as ‘dressage’ in the competition ring, you’ll still see the evidence of it in the jumping phases.
I’ve had your horse. Actually, several of them. I learned not to care at all. My favorite of them is this guy, who is still happy and sound at age 32, and when he was competing (Prelim to age 19, then a skin condition forced him to retire from multidiscipline competition), the safest horse ever over fences or out hunting. He absolutely denied the existence of dressage, but all of that hard work on the flat was there for his rider in the jumping phases.
So I learned not to care about the crap dressage scores. When the jumping was tough, he’d still finish near the top.
[QUOTE=JER;8267839]
If you’re having fun at Prelim, just keep going. Dressage scores aren’t worth the paper they’re written on. :)[/QUOTE]
That’s my camp, too, LOL! Solo hates, I mean, HATES, dressage. We’re talking a horse whose face is so expressive you can read every single thought on it. The horse who, after halting at X at the end of a N test at a recognized HT, earned the judge actually commenting OUT HER CAR WINDOW, “Wow, he really doesn’t like dressage does he??”
I laughed along with her, because it’s true. He’s incredibly kind & sensible, so he goes along with most things & he got much better as tests got more complicated & he understood more & was more mentally engaged.
But he was BORN to run XC (I bought him at age 10, he didn’t even know how to do a circle, had been a track pony Western & some trails & a little hunting, maybe). The first time we EVER schooled, after one log, that was it. At the end of the hour, he was giving leads to greenies up a T bank with a single stride to drop off the other side! 0.o
But he’s still my best friend, we wore our DFL badge with pride after dressage, I couldn’t help but laugh & give him mad respect for his committment! But he was never dangerous (I don’t do rearers or bolters anymore. Ever). I learned to pick my battles, we made some trade agreements, & matured as a rider to be able to just laugh when mid-test, he’d leap into the air with all four feet (bucking is far too conventional!), land cross-firing on a motorcycle lean for half a sort-of circle, then swap to the correct lead on his own & carry on as if nothing happened. Had I fought him, I learned fast I was going to lose big time, you just have to sit up there & wait for him to finish his statement & try to keep all four feet in the sandbox.
He taught me (over and over and over, ha) to look at the bigger picture – once it was time to jump, that horse would jump off the side of the Grand Canyon if I asked him to, not even a hesitation, & I never had to worry for one second because if he ever said “no,” there was a damn good reason. He had me, we had each other, & for me, that’s what it’s all about.
Even though the horse sounds like he’s not an easy ride over fences either, I think it might be worth revisiting the possibility of finding a jumper home. Sounds like the horse might not not be a good fit for your typical junior or amateur, but maybe you could find a talented individual who would be a good match. To sell to an eventer, you’d have to find someone who could handle the ride over fences and deal with dressage problems. To sell to a jumper, you only have to address the former.
I had a horse who had one XC penalty in his career and that was at Prelim during an argument I was having with him about how the jump was supposed to be done. This was after the judge commented after the test that he looked like he was good at XC! He would not tolerate any form of sitting trot at all - faked or not. He did win once at Prelim d/t his exceptional jumping skills. In the end he went on to the jumpers where he got many, many championships. Several years later, I got a nice 3 yr old. Was to be my event prospect. He said no, no, no to dressage from the get go. I tried many saddles, trainers etc to no avail. In the end he was diagnosed with kissing spine and a spur on C1. Had the KS surgery 9 mths ago and I am very, very carefully offering dressage type training with him. I find most trainers are in such a hurry to get the horse round that it discourages me and him. So I do it alone. I use a bitless bridle 50% of the time and he goes well in that. I like George Morris’ dressage for jumpers video - not handsy at all. Just goes about his business with a straight line from elbow to mouth no matter where the horse’s head is and by the end of the ride with no yanking, kicking or cranking, the horse is lovely and soft. It has helped me a ton. In retrospect, I suspect the former horse had kissing spine as well.
So if his back is OK, I’d look at the GM video for ideas, possibly use a Pessoa or Equiami for supplemental lunging work and try a bitless bridle. If all else fails I’ll bet the horse would be a happy guy in the jumpers! Good luck.
One thing I get is when you have started over and started over … and as someone said, every great new fix works … until it doesn’t. There does come a time when it is time to stop the cycle of ineffectiveness and go some new path, whatever that is.
You say he isn’t sale-able, but that isn’t really true. Everything can be sold for the right price. But what you are really expressing is concern about is getting him into the right hands. In your place I’d be ready to give him away to the right home. Keep your eyes open and someday that will show up, if you want it to show up.
I’m very interested in your descriptions of how he goes doing this and that. I will take a guess that the issue could be control of his head, not acceptance of contact. Does that make sense? He is willing to work as long as he is free to move his head and look around. But he may be a horse that goes into extreme anxiety at the idea that he has to give that up, which they do to be in a true frame.
If he is anxious about his head, it’s a matter of reassuring him constantly and increasing his trust while he is in the frame you want. Short periods of time, working up to longer periods - you are training his confidence, not just movements. Make sure he knows that you are aware of all of his concerns, but you feel calm and are going to take care of him and you both. He can stop worrying. That is actually hard to get across to some horses, especially the sentinel-types who think it is their job to be on the lookout at all times. (That is what the species is all about, after all.) Other horses are only too happy to hand all responsibility to the rider, but maybe not this horse.
Just a guess.
If being competitive is a priority for you, then you probably need to sell him. If you can live with being at the bottom of the score board, but in exchange getting to ride what sounds like a safe and fun jumping partner, then do that. Sounds like he could either be sold as a staff horse (as long as he can deal with hounds and general hunt excitements) or a jumper. Or just somebody’s fun horse. I have a similar horse and I empathize with the dressage issues. But he was so safe and fun in the jumping - it made up for it. However, I also had opportunities to compete more dressage- fluent horses and yeah, it does feel good to finish on the boards once in a while. So I feel your frustration.
I would also try the jumper route. I know a lot of people that have bought difficult horses for the right price and worked it out well in the end (happy horse and rider). I would not think that taking off after a jump on the first ride or two would be a deal breaker for any good older teen or adult amateur if the horse has some talent and is priced right (wouldn’t be for me). What makes you able to ride him over fences but he takes off with the better jumper kids? I assume you have some insight on this?
Do you have a video you could link us to? I don’t want to be overbearing but contact issues are training issues, which i know you know. and given the horrid experience he had with the one trainer…sounds like too much too fast. since you are in this predicament, i’d say take him back to basics and find the holes. try some of the schooling and warming up methods found on arttoride’s youtube channel, like this one on collection pt1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gu6n4vE5O4
I have a big trakehner who was ruined by previous owners/trainers (take your pick, there were 7 previous owners). didnt like thinking he was ruined but here i am three years in, and it is very clear that he was and we still have a ways to go. He does not stop when you rely on the bit, but he is also very sensitive, he has anxiety and horsey PTSD at shows (great at home or off property when not at a show), and he is very forward and strong, so it is RATHER difficult to attain correct contact. BUT the only way i have made progress is by schooling a ton of long and low, then long and low on contact, making sure he does not go behind the vertical EVER (took a year to get him to poke his nose out on a loose rein). the arttoride videos are a recent discovery of mine, and i have noticed a tremendous difference in our connection over his back in just the month that i have mimicked the warm up in his video. when he actively stretches into contact, down low, and does all the lateral movements while maintaining rhythm, we have a lovely ride. i dont ask for him to “accept contact” but i do ask him to move fluidly over the back, stretch into contact, and relax (which is the same thing as accepting contact, but i feel like i have to differentiate…). it will take time to be able to maintain this way of going, but there is no faster way.
also to note, my horse is the same o/f --he wants to be a F*ing sprinting camel…but thats getting better. honestly anything that looks like something he did with previous owners, he’s godawful at-- such as hunter courses. he’s actually infinitely better over jumper courses because he has to listen to know here to go which slows him down. hes also great XC but only because no one else has done XC with him but me. people ask me if im going to sell him since he has come along so nicely (translation: unload him because im aware of how complex his training issues are, and how long i’ll have to work at him to make him really nice), but my response is that it would be an injustice to drop him on anyone else because HE would suffer at their hands. and anyone who would do the right thing wouldn’t want a 13 year old spirited, previously ruined horse who still needs work. and i have invested a lot in him, and i dont think theres anything better than seeing that work pay off (by having a happy confident horse)
For what its worth as this is way above my scale, but one thing I’ve not heard you mention is the saddle. Just curious if you’ve ridden him bareback (or a bareback pad) and started to work him in dressage, asking more as he goes along.
From my own experience (and strong commentary from my trainer) we are working to get them to have a good top line and rounded (lifted?) back. Perhaps what he does not like is the feel of the saddle as you ask him to round more for it seems he is happy when he does not need that (on demand).
So, curious to see what happens doing dressage bareback in an inviting bit. This was something I did time to time with my older Trakehner and even with my mystery horse. I love the fact that I can really feel their back move.
Good luck.
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