Badminton 2017 Cross-country

[skydy]

@staceyk

I want to be respectful of everyone’s opinion – I can only speak for myself that I’ve had some bad moments (in my youth – which includes my thirties – an now that I’m in my fifties). I have done things that I regret an that I don’t want to be representative of who I am and I thank GOD there weren’t many around to tell the tale, much less an international audience. I can kind of imagine the bit of denial that someone might feel wanting so badly to finish a course, and coming so close, in a few minutes (three minutes is not that long). Anyone can place whatever judgements they like at the end of the day, that she is a selfish, horrible person, unfit for the sport. I’d have to assume that you all must hold yourself to very, very high standards, and have been in similar high pressure situations and come out with irreproachable behavior.

Like everyone else I am glad both she and her horse are okay, an she sounds chastened and accepting of her mistake.

Many of us have made mistakes in our youth. However my “youth” in the equestrian sense of the word, began when I was young and new to horses.
No one’s “youth” begins at Badminton Horse Trials thus I don’t understand how you can characterize this as a “youthful” or novice mistake.

Of course many of us would be horrified to see ourselves on the internet cluelessly riding our ponies when we were children, or horses as beginners but how does your “well we’ve all been young and stupid” analogy apply to a person riding cross country at Badminton?

The rider regrets treating the horse badly, as they should. Hopefully this will be a good lesson.
You might think again though, before you excuse the behavior as “young”.

[Doodlebug1]

Message from Tom Gilruth:

He just wants to say he’s overwhelmed by everyone’s messages and concerns for Emily Katherine Gilruth after her nasty fall yesterday at Badminton. She’s in great hands at Bristol hospital. She’s had a reasonably good day in that they have taken her off sedation and are slowly trying to wake her up. It’s all a matter of time but the doctors according to Tom are happy with her progress.
Will update tomorrow

[skydy]

@Doodlebug1

Message from Tom Gilruth:

He just wants to say he’s overwhelmed by everyone’s messages and concerns for Emily Katherine Gilruth after her nasty fall yesterday at Badminton. She’s in great hands at Bristol hospital. She’s had a reasonably good day in that they have taken her off sedation and are slowly trying to wake her up. It’s all a matter of time but the doctors according to Tom are happy with her progress.
Will update tomorrow

Sending all my best hopes for recovery to Emily, and strength to her family and friends.

I’m not a member of any of the facebook or twitter groups so can’t send best wishes directly. If anyone from the COTH forums is in touch, please let them know that we are thinking of them.

[Groom_amp_Taxi]

@Blugal

Second, someone has said Mark Todd said the distances were wrong at the Head of the Lake. It certainly seemed so, with most combinations getting an extra half stride. This caused at least one of the falls on the above video. Why wouldn’t the riders/TD/ground jury have this sorted out before XC? Surely the Mark Todds and Andrew Nicholsons know what the correct striding is for a jump out of water when they walk the course on Wed. or Thursday?

I watched the Toddy interview on the livestream. My interpretation of the remark at the time was that the factors beyond the actual measured distances were more influential than expected in some of the combinations. The riders had their plans, but when they tried to execute, the plans just didn’t work out as expected.

[NeverTime]

Not sure if the BBC coverage and FEI coverage were the same thing, but watching the post-XC interviews on BBC, Astier Nicholas definitely also was annoyed about the course design and striding, and he went clean. He said the strides didn’t work out, didn’t reward forward riding and the course as a whole sapped confidence as the horses went around. Particularly at the lake, it seemed like those who got to the little up bank right then got to the brush wrong and vice versa. That’s not right.

[shea_smom]

I also think Lauren was making a statement with her deliberate round. It was the “Anti-Rolex” course.
As for Elisa, I think she was struggling with her vest after the fall. We didn’t see enough to condemn her. I always defend people who are getting piled on, but the video of the young mare trying to do prelim was sad. I have done several long format 3 days, I know how your brain gets. But, she had more than enough time to get out of the zone and pull up, like Boyd did just a couple from home at Rolex one year.
I just want to hug Johnny.

[kcmel]

@shea'smom

As for Elisa, I think she was struggling with her vest after the fall. We didn’t see enough to condemn her.

I have mixed feeling here. We don’t know what she was thinking, and, contrary to what has been stated here, the horse did not fall. But still, the horse was clearly exhausted.

I saw my trainer yesterday, a 3* rider, and she found that part most disturbing. She’s seen many falls, and the first thing a rider does is check on the horse. Her friend (a 4* rider),had a bad rotational fall a couple of years ago and was unconscious for a few minutes. The first thing she asked when she woke up is “how is my horse?”

The only positive thing to come from this is that it is a good discussion to have. At what point do you pull up? Perhaps plan ahead–if my horse is doing x or y, I pull up. Of course you can’t prepare for all contingencies, but if you have that thought in your head maybe it will make the decision easier or allow for faster thinking. This should apply to all levels.

[CiegoStar]

I’ve followed Elisa’s blogs and videos for the last several years. She usually comes across as a thoughtful, humble horsewoman with an incredible work ethic. But I did wonder, watching her popularity soar as a result of her videos - when it would turn on her. Because it was inevitable. You put yourself out there with radical transparency, at some point you’ll make a mistake, and you’ll be subject to harsh criticism instead of adulation.

So it has happened. And all I can say is, good for her for IMMEDIATELY accepting responsibility and apologizing. I’m as disappointed in her as anyone but it’s possible to forgive someone who acknowledges her mistake. Otherwise I’d have a pitchfork at the ready, too.

As for the Hwin videos - good grief. This is not abuse. We’re seeing a horse having a green prelim round. Would you like all your green rounds on the Internet for everyone to see? (Cue: Oh I NEVER would XYZ … ok good for you for being perfect.) Elisa is humble enough to show her not-so-great rounds.

In eventing, it seems there is a tension between the culture of hard work, never-say-die attitude, and spectacular near-disasters that shows an extreme sport, and the culture of horsemanship, prudence, it’s not worth it, etc. I certainly fall into the latter category, but it seems many of our pros fall into the first, and that we expect them to! When it goes belly-up though then we blame them for fulfilling our wishes and fears. IDK.

[WNT]

Badminton Radio had an interview with Eric Winter before show jumping where he said he designed the bank out of the Lake to look more like a jump and be more inviting for the horses to jump. It seemed instead of the crisp, powerful jump he was expecting from the horses, they jumped very softly up, many landing with their back hooves on the logs. He said he expected most horses to land a meter past the edge for the striding he set.

We did see horses set up to successfully take the one, and others to take two. It would be interesting to see if it rode differently with a traditional vertical faced bank, but that ship done sailed. I will say Winter had a steep learning curve and can certainly take a page from diGrazia’s book to challenge riders but salvage the horses’ confidence from rider mistakes.

[devvie_continued]

About those Hwin videos: I saw those a long time ago and agree that they show a horse too green for the level. I commented on one on her YouTube channel (“Great riding but the horse is obviously not confident at the level”), my post was deleted, but I read somewhere later (lol) a comment from her saying that she’d moved the horse back down as it was not confident at the level. She did not keep running prelim with this horse. Not going to look up USEA record so no idea what it’s doing now. Lots of pros run, imo, prelim without knowing for sure if the horse is going to be confident at the level.

More generally there are just SO MANY riders that could be put under the microscope like this and found wanting – if you’re digging for dirt, dirt is what you’ll find and you might not even notice the flowers.

[JP60]

I’ve said my piece on Elisa Wallace’s performance at Badminton and only time will bear out if she’s learned. She has a steep well to climb out of after this event. I didn’t watch the Hwin videos, but I do agree with one post that commented she was not afraid to display the bad rounds with perhaps good ones that were not posted. Unless she is truly narcissistic, I think displaying the less good with the good means she’s willing to air the dirty laundry.

@WNT

I will say Winter had a steep learning curve and can certainly take a page from diGrazia’s book to challenge riders but salvage the horses’ confidence from rider mistakes.

This is a statement that some here, and what I heard over the weekend, miss. Zara was asked to compare Rolex to Badminton and while her answer was noncommittal, the under tone was “this is Badminton, what do you expect” along with “You just deal with it” which is part of the problem with FEI Eventing today. Just deal with it.

There was a Dutch rider who pulled out before the event citing that his horse was not use to such a course. Coward? Folks even on this list tried to spin it like he didn’t have experience, but as I saw it, he was putting his horse first. I feel he did have experience enough to see that even if he completed the course, it would have been hard on the horse.

We don’t speak up and that includes little ol’ LL me. I drop $300+ on a show and when I get there discover that for Novice, they have fence one and two just around 100 meters from the start and 2 is a maxed roll top downhill entry to a downhill landing. Not only did that go against the guidelines for the level (inviting forward ride), it may have broken the 100 meter rule yet there it was. No TD or GJ spoke up, of course riders, like me, didn’t speak up even though I had no clue how to ride such a fence. One rider fall and two refusals and LL folks starting to wonder “Why do this if this is what I have to deal with?”

This was Eric’s first 4* and he wanted to prove himself and it would seem in the eyes of the FEI, number of horse falls + number of riders falls is an okay measurement. A rider like Todd comments that the striding was off is bad enough, but when it is repeated, please let us not defend the CD. He screwed up. Some kid who finished 2 minutes over time, smiling and going “Oh gosh that was something” should not be how we measure a course at this level. Talking to some experienced UL riders, they thought the tree stump combination was very unfair, because the slide down threw off any striding it may have measured for, just as coming out of the lake the striding was screwed up by the sloping “roof”. I remember seeing one horse literally spread all four legs when the backs slipped out. That is a fence that punished a horse.

While we rant on Elisa, do not let Eric get a pass for he also performed a fair amount of horse abuse. 7 horse falls, two with injuries. Compare that to Derek with one horse fall (not fence related I believe), a few rider pop offs, but his course changed the leader board as well. We should also not let FEI get a pass for they are creating the culture that accepts such thinking. Maybe Elisa pushed Johnny because she’s a horrible person or maybe she pushed him, because the nature of US Eventing (visa vi FEI) is that if you don’t get noticed, you don’t get on the Team or get to rub elbows with the influential people and make better money.

This is professional riding and you may hate to hear it, but in the moment, she was making a business decision and sadly, it was a bad investment. As we all talk about it, if you are a favorite of the O’Conners things go your way, if not, then your horse gets pulled two fences from a finish for blood on the leg, you are pulled off the course (later it was stated it was a scratch) and lose a chance at a team spot. A protest ride? Please. Veronica had been there done that. She was no greenie to 4*. She was running out of gas, LK felt it and did the wise thing. She is a great rider, I like her style, but she rides in the shadows of the O’Conners and Mars so her very decision making will be different. This is Professional Eventing, US Style today.

Politics and money define our sport at the top so Eric designs a punishing course and is not told to tone it down. Why? Because some asshat will make a thrills and spills tape that gets the crowd engaged. Sure, some may poo poo and tsk tsk, but as a mass, humans watch the tragedy, want the disaster, and it sells. If it ain’t hard, it ain’t 4* folks say, but define hard…3 horse falls, 4? a fatal injury. Folks retired on this course with 20 points and while I was told it could have been, because they would switch to the next 4*, I feel that under the surface that rider knew, they knew that to continue would do nothing for the horse, because the a mistake in the wrong space and they start to lose confidence or worse, get injured.

This was an ugly course that went against the basic tenets of the FEI’s own guidelines. It was built to mainly showcase the few best at the top as it punished many others. This is not what we should accept to represent our sport.

[devvie_continued]

And again, more generally: I’m not involved in upper level eventing, but don’t the horses ROUTINELY receive IV fluids and the like after cross-country and fairly invasive not very natural “sports medicine” in general? Am I wrong?

This is far from the first horse to finish XC exhausted, not that it makes it right. Watch the XC from the last WEG (it’s online) if you want to watch tired horse after tired horse not be pulled up by rider or ground jury, the conditions were terrible. Harry Meade’s horse Wild Lone collapsed and died after this test (I can’t find a cause of death via a quick Google search).

Do you remember WEG in Kentucky when both Germans Dirk Schrade and Simone Deitermann had falls at the second to last fence? This is not new to the sport – not condoning, I just want to provide some context here. This is nothing new.

[clint]

JP60, outstanding post.

[Madison]

@kcmel

We don’t know what she was thinking, and, contrary to what has been stated here, the horse did not fall. But still, the horse was clearly exhausted.

---

The only positive thing to come from this is that it is a good discussion to have. At what point do you pull up? Perhaps plan ahead–if my horse is doing x or y, I pull up. Of course you can’t prepare for all contingencies, but if you have that thought in your head maybe it will make the decision easier or allow for faster thinking. This should apply to all levels.

One of the things that bothered me the most watching her round live was that she knew he was exhausted enough that she went to the crop heavily between jumps, and she not only didn’t get much response, he ultimately started slowing down. So to me, that showed an awareness that he was tiring, and it should have been followed by an awareness that she needed to pull up. I credit her for promptly owning up to her mistake and apologizing, but I think it is a real shame that she missed the opportunity to pull up, and be praised for how well he went up to that point as well as looking out for her horse’s best interest, before going home to reevaluate the fitness program.

[Jealoushe]

@CiegoStar

As for the Hwin videos - good grief. This is not abuse. We’re seeing a horse having a green prelim round. Would you like all your green rounds on the Internet for everyone to see? (Cue: Oh I NEVER would XYZ … ok good for you for being perfect.) Elisa is humble enough to show her not-so-great rounds.

No one said it was abuse, but we said it was poor horsemanship and a very poor choice to be eventing that horse at that level. This horse isn’t green for Prelim - it’s green in general! It doesn’t look solid enough for even training level. What’s the rush to move that horse up other than ego to say you did? I don’t know. Those videos showed a lot.

@devvie_continued

This is far from the first horse to finish XC exhausted, not that it makes it right. Watch the XC from the last WEG (it’s online) if you want to watch tired horse after tired horse not be pulled up by rider or ground jury, the conditions were terrible. Harry Meade’s horse Wild Lone collapsed and died after this test (I can’t find a cause of death via a quick Google search).

This isn’t about finishing an exhausted horse. The horse was exhausted 3 minutes from home and she still pressed him over those last fences when he could barely canter. These jumps are nearly 4’ remember. It caused a fall which could have killed her or her horse. There is no excuse. I’m glad she has apologized but I hope there is a change. It’s a lot easier to ask for forgiveness.

If this is not a new phenom then I hope the eventing community sees how unacceptable it is. Unfortunately with these riders who make themselves social media stars - the young riders care more about supporting their fame than learning from it. I have already seen countless comments on Instagram and Facebook applauding EW for trying her best to make her horse finish. This coming from young eventers who care more about the celeb status than actual horsemanship.

I stand behind my belief that making eventing main stream and making these ULRs celebrities is slowly ruining the sport.

[devvie_continued]

@clint

JP60, outstanding post.

JP60 – very opinionated argument, appreciate you putting your opinion out here to share with others.

“Eric . . . is not told to tone it down” Pure opinion, nothing factual here: We don’t know anyone told him “not to tone it down.”

[JP60]

@devvie_continued

About those Hwin videos: I saw those a long time ago and agree that they show a horse too green for the level. I commented on one on her YouTube channel (“Great riding but the horse is obviously not confident at the level”), my post was deleted, but I read somewhere later (lol) a comment from her saying that she’d moved the horse back down as it was not confident at the level. She did not keep running prelim with this horse. Not going to look up USEA record so no idea what it’s doing now. Lots of pros run, imo, prelim without knowing for sure if the horse is going to be confident at the level.

More generally there are just SO MANY riders that could be put under the microscope like this and found wanting – if you’re digging for dirt, dirt is what you’ll find and you might not even notice the flowers.

Just for the hell of it…

Hwin ran a total of 10 events in her career (2015/05/14 - 2017/02/16).
Novice 4
Training 3 (one as a let down)
Prelim 3 ( last one retired with 60 points, 16 stadium, but the two prelims before finished 6 & 13)

After Carolina Hwin had almost a year off and then competed at Training.

Read what you want into numbers and stats, but it does not strike me as a big bad professional trying to push a horse up the ladder as much as testing to see what it was capable of. Wallace gave Hwin almost a year off. dropped her down to Training where she dropped 1 rail in the Training event, finished 11th out of 19. She may wind up to be a fantastic LL horse with a huge willing heart and still a good representative of her breed.

[beowulf]

@devvie_continued

JP60 – very opinionated argument, appreciate you putting your opinion out here to share with others.

“Eric . . . is not told to tone it down” Pure opinion, nothing factual here: We don’t know anyone told him “not to tone it down.”

That was a pretty punishing course: that’s very factual.

Nearly every single horse that I was able to capture on the stream, you could see them lose confidence as the course went on. Not much of “settling into a rhythm” that I saw. Lots of pulling/kicking, sucking back, and faltering both horse and rider that I saw.

In comparison to Rolex, where as the course went on it started to have a flowing rhythm to it.

JMHO.

[goodmorning]

Zara seemed to dislike the Rolex type course & longed to be at Badders. However she wasnt qualified. Called Rolex twisty.

laurens only statement was that she’s looking forward to going back - “It’s quite the experience to be at Badminton, it’s certainly what I expected it to be — big, bad and hard,” Lauren said. “It’s nice to have it under our belt and we just want to come back again.”

I don’t think Eric Winter will like how the water rode, Tina Cook did the 1-stride perfectly but it obviously didn’t ride well.

There is a Facebook post by Patrick McGowan that echoes my sentiments. I do think Lynn & Donner were going to go for it but the shoe loss early put a wrench in their plans. They are a pair that could have handled that track, I still don’t think it was a track that suits Veronica. I think she doesn’t jump as well/careful when she’s out to win it. But that’s again just my O

[Blugal]

@kcmel

I have mixed feeling here. We don’t know what she was thinking, and, contrary to what has been stated here, the horse did not fall. But still, the horse was clearly exhausted.

I saw my trainer yesterday, a 3* rider, and she found that part most disturbing. She’s seen many falls, and the first thing a rider does is check on the horse. Her friend (a 4* rider),had a bad rotational fall a couple of years ago and was unconscious for a few minutes. The first thing she asked when she woke up is “how is my horse?”

The only positive thing to come from this is that it is a good discussion to have. At what point do you pull up? Perhaps plan ahead–if my horse is doing x or y, I pull up. Of course you can’t prepare for all contingencies, but if you have that thought in your head maybe it will make the decision easier or allow for faster thinking. This should apply to all levels.

I fell with a horse that slipped at the trot. The onlooker said I landed on my behind and it didn’t look like I hit my head. I remained sitting on the ground and started pulling of my gloves and vest. She thought that was weird, that I didn’t get up and catch my horse. Then I said, “I had this dream that I fell off…”

I had a severe concussion. I don’t remember that day. But I was talking the whole time and sounded coherent, even asking to change out of my riding clothes before going to the hospital (they let me as I insisted).

I wasn’t going to tell this story but apparently we need to stop with our black and white absolute thinking here.

Re: pulling up, agree this conversation is important. I discussed this with my coach before my first CCI with steeplechase. I was worried that I wouldn’t know how to tell if my horse was tired. I was told if he seems tired, slow up and let him take that deep breath like they do when going up a long hill. Then put your leg on. If the horse responds positively, he still has energy, just needed a breather. If not, he’s getting tired and you’ll be nursing him home.

Second lesson on pulling up: if you have one problem on course, you may continue. Your second stop or run out indicates that it’s just not your day. Pull up. You can go home and figure out what is wrong, which could include a soundness issue. It’s not worth your horse’s or your own well- being. This pact was made, sadly, at Galway Downs CCI the day Mia Eriksson died. She had continued after 4 stops and the ground jury was attempting to have her pulled up when she had her fatal rotational fall. At only 18 years old she might have had the “get it done” mentality that we eventers often display and applaud.