Okay, then conjecture, but based on observing the real world of business and sport. The first looks of the course had people talking less kindly about it. We had pro riders pulling out so…Would it not be prudent for FEI officials to review Eric’s course, perhaps get some expert opinions, as in actual people who ride at that level and consider making adjustments?
Folks here were pretty much saying Derek’s Rolex was more a 3.5* and Eric here presents a real 4* so yes, I make a conjecture that Eric is allowed to keep a punishing course, because the FEI wants spectacular (opinion based on past FEI show/decisions) and a Derek DeGracia course is not, it just does the job right. Someone at FEI was asleep when it was decided to have him do WEG and 2020. “Where’s the eliminations, the gasps, the I hope they are alright’ from shocked, but pleased crowds. This will be a disaster” some FEI toadie exclaims too late.
My opinion is that Eric should apprentice with Derek for at least two course designs/builds and runs at 4* before he ever is allowed to design a 4* again. CMP should just be removed from CD all together.
I haven’t watched more than an hour of it (I had a saddle fitting booked for that morning, worthwhile but urgggh I missed most of it), so am yet to form my own opinion or argument, but an interesting discussion with my coach had her emphasizing the role of rider responsibility , e.g., as someone else said somewhere in this thread, don’t angle the damned vertical gate if your horse is tired, change your line, take the long route, and have your horse (the RIGHT horse for the job with enough scope) fit enough for the job, etc. Another perspective to add insight and opinion, and arguably (as is very very obvious on this forum), confidence is built elsewhere than the toughest test of horses on the planet aside from racing.
This is an educational thread in its best moments, so thanks all.
Not an eventer here. and I hope this isn’t way off topic. I had been reading about the issue with Elisa and Johnny (? barn name?), so i clicked an article on Rate My Horse Pro about her Yellow card. The video in the article/post is called something like the “best refusals and falls of Badminton.” Who on earth gets entertainment out of that nonsense? I clicked to see the offending exhausted horse, but it was embedded in other footage, and I just couldn’t watch the carnage. I just can’t believe that people find that entertaining. Makes me sick to my stomach. Riding and jumping is too scary and dangerous on a good day. I just don’t get it.
My turn: nothing dangerous, but my first prelim (obviously pretty exciting for an 18-year-old and obviously I wasn’t ready) I had three stops at fence four – a pretty basic stone wall with a downhill approach. In the (adrenaline fueled) moment, I forgot the most basic rule of x-c, three stops and you’re eliminated. I presented to the fence a fourth time. Very embarrasing, and I’m not stupid. It just happened anyways, I can’t explain it.
I didn’t click on the link to watch, but at the moment 25,117 views.
It is easy.
People watch NASCAR for the wrecks.
We slow down to look at the accident
We watch 4* to see how many “survive”
We hang on the TV when there is some disaster and a part of us is drawn to mess so way can say “glad that wasn’t me”.
Humans love the hero, the courageous, the survivor and if you can’t have a video in the spontaneous moment, let’s try to make it happen. It just sucks when there is the occasional death or injury but hey “it’s a risky sport don’t ya know”.
Damn right I’m cynical, because 7 horse falls, two with injuries and we beat down on one rider for making a bad decision, not the course designer for making a bad course. devvie argues that it is Rider Responsibility, yet we beat down on a rider who after seeing a initial course walk video, pulls out his horse.
We cheer for the young girl, 2 minutes over, because she’s got at plucky can do spirit without acknowledging she took almost every optional route. Why have options. If you can’t ride the actual course, what are you doing there, because at other levels, you don’t have the choice.
The goal of a CD should be to try and challenge every rider, but get as many of them home, even if they carry points or time. That’s boring the masses say. We need to gasp, clutch our throats, pray, feel the adrenaline rush since we can’t ever run at that level so not feel it for real. Rolex should be a case study in how to start doing it right. Badminton should be a case study in how to do it wrong.
It came up in discussion. I’m not sure how I feel about that idea, just to clarify. You’re talking to someone who gave up on the sport as a youth because of the danger to horses. I’m a real real softy when it comes to animals, and didn’t follow the upper levels of the sport for a very long time.
I do think we should be careful accusing people of running exhausted horses. Wild Lone appears to have died of a cardiac event of some type. The horse looked incredible at WEG the whole way through. Harry Meade said he felt he felt “perfect” all the way around and could have gone faster. Wild Lone had the most beautiful clear round at Badminton that year and it was a tough year.
I have seen a horse die of an aortic rupture type event and it is incredibly fast with usually no warning. It is not at all the same as pushing an exhausted horse. Not sure if they ever published the results but if you have any idea what you are looking at you can tell it was not exhaustion. Plus, if it had been there would have been a yellow card and tons of press.
Okay so I had to choose between watching or reading COTH this weekend, so here are my Monday morning thoughts.
@NCRider , I just want to say that I’ve agreed with literally every single thing you said on this thread, thank you for your input!
This is exactly where I stand on the entire issue. As for the Hwin thing, refer to JP60s assessment of her record – she was given time off and dropped down a level when she showed the need for more learning, exactly as all of us would want.
This comment x 100. Yes, yes, yes.
Agreed with this comment and BFNE quoted above. You don’t need to put horses on the ground for your 4* track to be challenging, and I wonder why some designers persist in creating that style of track. Ego? Lack of ability to weed them out in other ways? Horses came out of Rolex better for the experience. I bet the Badminton horses, even most of the finishers, will need some easy runs to bounce back.
Love how game the horse is, but as the rider I would have HEART FAILURE watching my best friend jump a fence that big with unsecured reins. So fortunate that all that came of this was a cool video.
Had to love that he came off course just as thrilled as he was after that dressage test though – practically screaming about how much he loved his horse, how perfect he was, how the one mistake was just a simple rider error, and how the horse was an absolute horse of a lifetime. They will do many, many great things in their day, and I think Jonty fully realized that on cross-country day. 20 or no 20 I don’t think he could be any happier, I loved it!
To me, this is the mentality that gets the North Americans beat at major championships. Jumping all the jumps means nothing if you pick up more than a stop in time. Oliver Townend had a stop and time on his first ride and still came in with fewer penalties xc than LK. I am a HUGE Lauren fan, but I don’t think she should be given a whole ton of team credit for this particular completion. If you can’t do it anywhere near the time allowed, you can’t do it well enough to be on a team, IMO.
For those who were saying it was a protest ride, you only get so many 4*s with a horse – to use one of them to (vaguely/subtly) protest would be a hugely immature thing to do and a huge waste of the horse’s legs. I can’t ever see LK being so silly.
Just saw a post on Shane Rose Eventing facebook page about “Nugget” that said only “Not good news”
I really hope that means that the horse’s competitive career is over and that he will be able to retire to a nice pasture sound life.
Some of my most heartstopping moments have been the two or three times I fell off at a show or clinic and wasn’t able to hang on to the reins, and saw my sweet baby girl run lost and scared, even if only for 30 seconds.
The striding at that water with the up bank was horrible. I hope the CD doesn’t use that type of question in the exact same way again. I also hope, for the long term future of these horses, he changes some elements of the course to reward the horse and give riders a chance to get back into a positive rhythm when there was a problem earlier. That I think played a large part in the issues out there.
I think Rolex is considered a “3.5* course” because, as was pointed out earlier, it looks more like 3 or 3.5* fences with 4* accuracy/striding/terrain elements. Badminton this year was 4* fences with 4* accuracy/striding/terrain elements all the way around. I think Rolex let’s horses that might be more 3* horses get around with stops or lots of time for taking the options, if the rider wishes a completion, and Badminton doesn’t, even with the options. I don’t like all the falls either…but they were spread out throughout the course. Maybe that says something about the striding or the footing or ??? …I saw a LOT of horses slipping out there, which absolutely would have contributed to falls. I think rider fatigue played a huge issue here too towards the end as well…both mental and physical fatigue for both horses and riders. So change the course or change the way to prepare horses and riders…train against that type of mental fatigue? Something for riders to consider.
I think US horses struggle at European events in part due to the footing. Most of our horses get there what, a week ahead of time? We run on “hard” ground to the rest of the Europeans…I don’t think our horses are used to running and jumping on the softer footing that is considered “good” there, and it is more tiring…our riders have a tendency to scratch or run slow with conditions like that. No judgement, just an observation. I suspect riders who go over with more time to prep and condition on British ground would do better, but that’s just a hunch.
Point taken. The notion of rider responsibility has been bandied about on this forum for a number of years (certainly even before my time). I certainly agree that there is a basic level of responsibility we should carry at all times when it comes to our horse. What this event showed is that attitude is being used as the excuse to allow for crossing the line by officials.
Imagine if a team, upon coming to a show they’ve paid good money to compete in walks the cross country course, see’s stuff that is above their comfort zone or had a concern for their horse and were allowed to get a refund and leave?
Impossible!! people cry. Organizers would constantly lose money. You can’t run a show like that! Or can you?
If enough people opt out after seeing a course it might mean that the CD is overfacing too many riders at that level and should be reviewed. Right now we have no control over that other than a possible talk with a TD who mostly well say “suck it up butter cup, it’s your choice”.
I am a competitor, but I am also a customer (let’s not get into the rudeness thing at the moment folks) and I am asked to buy something, sight unseen. I asked before, how hard is too hard? Where do we put the pressure, because right now, the rider is the one forced to take all the responsibility and cover the financial loss.
I don’t have answers completely, but I feel that a course like Badminton is not the way to present this sport. I do not feel it is fair the riders takes all the blame or as some are want to do, the horse as well. In a better world we might read that a formal review was being performed to assess the course and the impact it had on horse and rider. That recommendations come out of it such we improve the sport, help make it safer without taking away the challenge. I hold Eric responsible for those 7 falls first, before the team.
Just watched the compilation of falls on the link that Rate My Horse Pro has on their page, and that was certainly a shit ton of bad riding and painful to watch. :eek:
ETA: Read all the commentary by Nicholson, Jung, Price, Klimke, Symansky and Kieffer and all agree it was a tough course where, for the most part, experience and careful riding was key. Still, a course that eliminates half the field? Wow.
I agree the CD needs to be held responsible. Those of us who have been here forever and gone over the many deaths have always wanted this for CMP but it seemed the more he caused the more work he got. I guess some just may feel like TPTB don’t care about the course designers responsibility.
also notice how the rider who is currently in a coma is hardly mentioned anywhere? If she doesn’t wake up then that will be very bad news for us all. Wishing her a strong recovery.
I went to EW’s FB page to see any updates. Her dad posted that they were all leaving England and that life lessons had been learned and that he’d never been more proud of his daughter and her horse. He then posted a Roosevelt quote which in nutshell says that armchair critics don’t matter, and that it’s better to fail while doing things. (Well that’s the gist of the quote anyway.) A Patrick McGaughan also posted a very long post on her page (and some others) that’s pretty good. Not sure if I agree with his comments on LK because at least she completed safely. But I suppose he’s right that finishing safely doesn’t win medals. (That’s assuming that any of the riders want medals. Some might be happy to just complete, and I certainly understand and respect that.)
I don’t want to sound unsympathetic, but that fall was at the 2nd or 3rd fence, which from all reports sounded like it was a good introductory early on fence. no idea what happened, but I don’t think the course or CD are responsible for that fall.
I hate that my first thought at all 4* events is that I hope all horses and riders come home safe.
Refusals, run outs, some rider falls … that is absolutely fine and expected IMHO, whether at Badminton or my local N level horse trials. Horse falls are not, neither are questions that trick or mislead the horse - I will leave calling out trick fences to those with more experience than this happy lower level smurf has.
Sorry my post about the course designer was not in regards to that rider. That was a second thought I had, in how when there is serious injury everything becomes hush hush.
I’ll put my flame suit on, that is because she is neither famous nor the daughter of someone famous or influential in the sport. Just some young girl who thought this was her big day to ride the famed Badminton.
If we talk about how she may have fallen (didn’t see video, don’t want) people will say “Too soon”, “Have you no shame”, “that’s just the sport”. I truly hope she recovers, but my question is will there be any formal review of this course, an inquiry into why the CD did what he did? Three rotational lookings over the tree stump, at least two nasties at the lake out, at least two at the gates. As I recall an Italian rider also came off at fence2. I remember someone commented that it was not as easy as it looked for it was a downhill entry to a downhill landing. Odd choice for a 2nd fence that should invite a forward ride at the start even at a 4*.
Two horses injured for Nugget’s injuring came from falling, losing the rider and taking off. What do you think people will say if we hear Nugget had to be put down, because of his injuries. Will the FEI talk about changes to better stop or catch horses that run? Nope. “That’s horses for ya”, “he died doing what he loved”, “there was nothing that could be done”. Next Event.
It seems she has publicly commented on this as well. From Elisa: “I completely understand how you feel of what you saw. I was a bit in a fluster and was thinking to get him to the vet box so he could get attended too. And yes I was cussing at myself that I had put horse in that situation. But I understand. And I apologize for it and it will never happen again.”
