Badminton 2017 Cross-country

[fordtraktor]

That is a good thing that they hush it up a bit. Give the family the privacy they need right now. Early days in a TBI recovery are just overwhelming, they have enough on their minds. It might stay that way for a while.

FWIW, I don’t think the fall where this rider was seriously injured is on that video of falls, linked in several places. It is still in questionable taste but I thought that was at least thoughtful, not to label the serious falls a “best of.”

Nugget, and I wish all the best for him, was not injured by the actual course. I heard he slid into Badminton House arches. I hope they don’t take down Badminton house to prevent such injuries, and the CD had nothing to do with that.

I still think the course was too unrelenting but I don’t get being too hard on this. I mean, if they put up a rope near the barn, many panicking horses will just bolt through a rope and make everything worse. Jumping out in front of a bolting horse is a good way to get people killed too.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

@fordtraktor

That is a good thing that they hush it up a bit. Give the family the privacy they need right now. Early days in a TBI recovery are just overwhelming, they have enough on their minds. It might stay that way for a while.

It’s not really being hushed up. There is no video of her fall that I’ve seen…nor was one shown on the live feed. It was a big ass table with a ditch before it (which does help with the ground line). It wasn’t shown much on the video feed.

There was a status up date today. She is still stable but sedated. The family did ask for privacy but as far as I can tell…there are TON of well wishes being shared for her on twitter. Fingers crossed that she pulls through.

I’m sure there is just not a lot to up date on now.

As for horse injuries, I feel so bad for Shane Rose’s horse. I’ve known horses who did recover (after surgery) from fractured shoulders…but we are talking years of rehab/rest.

[fordtraktor]

Yes, I really just meant I am glad not to see the family have to deal with a lot of online quarterbacking debate over the fall itself. Nobody needs that at such a time. Positive well wishes are very different and I wish her as many of those as I can get across the pond!

[Jealoushe]

I was more meaning, her name, horses name, what caused the fall etc? There is little to no discussion of it. It was originally reported she was totally fine. Our sport lacks the data needed for safety studies.

I hope equiratings rates course designers too and gives this one a big fat fail.

[FrittSkritt]

@lep

A Patrick McGaughan also posted a very long post on her page (and some others) that’s pretty good. Not sure if I agree with his comments on LK because at least she completed safely. But I suppose he’s right that finishing safely doesn’t win medals. (That’s assuming that any of the riders want medals. Some might be happy to just complete, and I certainly understand and respect that.)

I need/want to point out that HSB has the benefit of having a horse that’s owned by a billionaire heiress and can afford to re-route her ride to Luhmuhlen. Whether she went out on course with Luhmuhlen in her mind or not, it speaks volumes about the difference in what’s expected from these riders: Lynn toughed it out because this is her only 4* horse and it was now or never, HSB retired likely knowing she had a backup plan of Luhmuhlen, a string of 3/4* horses back home, and the financial support to make it back to Badminton on one of them.

[Doodlebug1]

Update on Em

She’s had another positive day and shown signs of movement to stimulation and the doctors are pleased with her progress.
There is not much more to report other than everyday so far is going the right way.
Will do daily evening update for all Facebookers x

[JP60]

@fordtraktor

Nugget, and I wish all the best for him, was not injured by the actual course. I heard he slid into Badminton House arches. I hope they don’t take down Badminton house to prevent such injuries, and the CD had nothing to do with that.

Why do I think you are in the “nothing wrong here, move it along” camp. Horses weren’t tired, course was fine.

If a rider can capture a bucking bronco in less than a few seconds, I find it amazing that there could not have been some outrider along that track that could have even tried steering the horse a different way. I watched that moment, live. he took off, saw a gap on the lane and started into the crowd. Thank goodness no one got hurt. Camera was on him for a decent bit so was a fair distance between falling at the fence and slamming into a building. This was not seconds so I would like the FEI to even pretend to care about horses and people and perhaps address ideas on how to stop a runaway horse.

I’m happy to throw the CD under the bus. He designed a crap course, but we differ on that view. As a first time CD he now has 7 horse falls, some number of riders notched in his protractor. Bully for him. I only pray he does not try to catch up to CMP.

[Madison]

@lep

A Patrick McGaughan also posted a very long post on her page (and some others) that’s pretty good. Not sure if I agree with his comments on LK because at least she completed safely. But I suppose he’s right that finishing safely doesn’t win medals. (That’s assuming that any of the riders want medals. Some might be happy to just complete, and I certainly understand and respect that.)

Agreed, I thought it was a little harsh on Lynn and Lauren - Lynn completed with a lost shoe at fence 4 that left Donner not enough traction, does he really think Lynn should still have put the pedal to the metal and risked an injury to her horse and herself if he fell? It was disappointing only because we know they are capable of more, but I won’t fault that decision, nor will I fault Lauren for playing it safe and completing, coming off the fall at Rio. There is value for her and the horse in a completion, and for all he knows, that was her primary objective. Given the number of US non-completions at big events in recent years, I’d much rather be saying after a completion “hmm, maybe she could have gone for it a little more” than saying “hmm, maybe if they were a little less aggressive they would have completed.”

[Marigold]

@JP60

I would like the FEI to even pretend to care about horses and people and perhaps address ideas on how to stop a runaway horse.

Do you have any ideas on this? Not being snarky, I’m genuinely curious. There is enough risk in our sport between the ropes, I’d love to eliminate all of it outside, but I have no idea how to mitigate this. I don’t even have a starting point for capturing a horse running so fast it’s willing to jump a line into the crowd.

[beowulf]

@JP60

Why do I think you are in the “nothing wrong here, move it along” camp. Horses weren’t tired, course was fine.

If a rider can capture a bucking bronco in less than a few seconds, I find it amazing that there could not have been some outrider along that track that could have even tried steering the horse a different way. I watched that moment, live. he took off, saw a gap on the lane and started into the crowd. Thank goodness no one got hurt. Camera was on him for a decent bit so was a fair distance between falling at the fence and slamming into a building. This was not seconds so I would like the FEI to even pretend to care about horses and people and perhaps address ideas on how to stop a runaway horse.

I’m happy to throw the CD under the bus. He designed a crap course, but we differ on that view. As a first time CD he now has 7 horse falls, some number of riders notched in his protractor. Bully for him. I only pray he does not try to catch up to CMP.

I mostly agree with your posts so far but that was not the impression I got from FT’s posts.

As someone who has watched a loose horse try to jump a gate trust me the only way you are going to get a loose horse is when they decide they are going to be caught. Sometimes that comes sooner than it does for others. Sure, you could find some outriders that might be okay galloping down a loose horse but in a crowded venue it is very unsafe - eventing is nothing like harness or race tracks where there’s no obstacles and nothing but dirt track for miles.

I’ve caught my fair share of loose horses at events (as both a spectator and a JJ) and nothing can get a horse that doesn’t want to be caught, whether it’s a rope, a gate, or a tractor. I’ve seen horses go through spectator ropes, bystanders, fly around parking lots, once I even watched a loose horse gallop straight down our stabling shedrow at a show… And in some really bad cases, I’ve seen horses try to jump barricades and flip right over them. What happened to that horse was no one’s fault, save perhaps the person that disunited with him.

[Doodlebug1]

@Jealoushe

I hope equiratings rates course designers too and gives this one a big fat fail.

I’m really struggling to understand the course designer hate.

Fence 2, the Italian - just watch it. Every other horse jumped it fine. One horse, too enthusiastic ran in too deep. The horse hit it and landed fine. The rider got jumped out of the plate. The commentators comment was that the qualifications are not high enough if people can’t sit through that.

Fence 3, again, ONE problem. Yes, a bad one, but how can there be all the onus on the course designer? None of us saw it, we don’t know if Emily rode the wrong line, or, like the Italian, the horse took charge, or someone put the wrong studs in and the horse slipped. By that logic, the CD should be ‘blamed’ for Elisa’s fall - is it really his fault there was a fall there? No. It was a bad rider moment. We saw plenty of those at some of these fences - and some were moments of misunderstanding.

Yes, the water’s caused problems - the first, the CD is on record as saying that he tried to create a new, safer exit from the water that encouraged horses to jump well up the bank. It didn’t quite work out. Some horses went on one stride, some horses went happily on two short and a few did not look pretty. There is absolutely a process for riders to complain about distances and for remedial action to be taken. They did not lodge a protest because no-one really thought it was that bad. They DID lodge a protest about the Bullfinch - which jumped perfectly fine (fence 22 on the course analysis) which just shows that you really never can tell the reality until the course is being jumped.

The other water - yes, there were falls later in the day - but for at least the first half there was not a single problem going in to the water - the first fall was rider number 92 https://www.badminton-horse.co.uk/in…analysis-2017/ That is not a course designer problem - that is riders changing their approach based on ‘everyone’s jumping in really well’ and then screwing up themselves.

I ABSOLUTELY Agree the courses should be as safe as they can be - but this witch hunt on the course designer just seems so strange when it seems that course designers on here have previously been roasted for ‘all the skinny fences’; ‘it’s just not like it used to be with big attacking fences’ etc, etc. Horse falls are horrific and no one wants to see them but I believe there are less horse falls than if 90 of us on our own two feet, without someone on us bossing us around set off to jump/clamber around the course; there is an element of risk - and we should absolutely make all reasonable safety amendments - remember that horse that bled out and died by getting tangled in a flag? So very much has changed for the better. Let’s be constructive and try and change things rather than look to lay absolute blame.

[Frivian]

I know Packy is very well-respected, but I really found his post in bad taste. It seems to be along the same lines of the “get er done” mentality that really should not take priority over horse welfare. If Elisa had made it all the way through the flags without falling, how many people would be congratulating her for getting the horse through and getting the job done? Would Packy have a different tune? I get that things were very different back in his day, and I think we all agree that we don’t want to go back to that time. No horse should have to suffer that much for a human’s ambitions.

I applaud Lauren and Lynn and think they did the very best for their horses that they could. Veronica has fallen more than once her career, and I think it’s safe to say that Lauren knows the mare very well at this point. I think that Lauren got the experience she needed while protecting the horse she was riding. Badminton 2017 was not a team event and is not in a championship year. The way I see it for our potential team riders, this year is about getting the experiences and the completions needed so that they can be ready to go next year. Finishing 9th, 10th or 11th or whatever Lauren may have finished had she gone faster vs. 17th would not have made a difference in how the US will do in the 2018 WEG. She got the job done in a way that did not put her own ambitions above the welfare of the horse, and she is going to be better for the experience. I can’t wait to see what she does for the US next year.

HSB could have “tried harder” but it seemed she was riding a bit scared, and maybe she made the best decision for herself that day - if someone is riding scared, they should not be out on course at Badminton. I don’t think anyone should EVER criticize a rider for retiring or calling it a day. Better a moment too soon than a moment too late…Packy was wrong to call them out like that.

[Jealoushe]

@Doodlebug1

Let’s be constructive and try and change things rather than look to lay absolute blame.

This whole thread is constructive.

There were too many falls for me, but going off what the RIDERS said, the course did not reward the horses. It punished them, even when jumped correctly. It took away confidence, not built it. One horse with a severe injury, one rider with a TBI, many bumps and bruises and one riders reputation out the window.

To me, this course has dropped eventings image down a few pegs, after the course at Rolex did the exact opposite.

I care most about horse welfare, and the future of our sport. After this event, it’s hard for those watching to be excited for eventing. The only ones that seem excited are the pros who do their back pat marathons on social media.

[Doodlebug1]

@JenJ

Just saw a post on Shane Rose Eventing facebook page about “Nugget” that said only “Not good news”

I really hope that means that the horse’s competitive career is over and that he will be able to retire to a nice pasture sound life.

Some of my most heartstopping moments have been the two or three times I fell off at a show or clinic and wasn’t able to hang on to the reins, and saw my sweet baby girl run lost and scared, even if only for 30 seconds.

yeah, from what I can see that ‘not good news’ is from a member of the public commenting on the post saying that he had had a fall and broken his shoulder. I think meant in the spirit of ‘oh no; that’s not what I expected to read, not good news’ rather than an actual commentary on Nugget himself.

Fingers crossed for the best possible outcome.

[lep]

Apparently the woman who was injured is the sister of a local politician. There are stories about her online in the UK news. She’s a 40-yr-old woman with 2 daughters. I don’t think people are saying “oh it was just some girl” and hushing it up. It’s just not going to make much news here, and until a statement was released, there was nothing to report.

As for the course, the commentators were most critical it seemed of those upright rails that the horses kept knocking (and you could hear the metal clang sound when they did). They said the poles were between square and round, and they said they didn’t think that’s the way the sport should go.

I wonder, too, if the bank out of the water with the one stride (which did work for some) would have jumped differently had it had a regular face. The announcers were commenting that the CD built the bank out the way he did to make the horses clear it better and not step on the edge, but apparently the horses didn’t read it the way he thought they were going to.

[riderboy]

Honestly, this is when I would like Reed to chime in. He has great insight on the “unpreventable accidents” being almost always completely preventable. I think the comments from riders who said the course did not reward good, forward riding, had odd distances and had so many rider and horse falls with one rider suffering a TBI, might come under Reeds purview and analysis. In medicine, malpractice attorneys have a saying, res ipsa loquitur which means, the thing speaks for itself. Once again I know it’s a dangerous sport, but these are things we just see very rarely on a Derek course.

[lep]

As for EW’s comment that she was flustered and was thinking of getting her horse to the vet box, I don’t buy it. If you’re thinking of getting your horse to the vet box, why are you not looking at him and in fact moving away from him? I call bullsh*t. I am reminded of KOC’s fall with Mandiba on the bank jump when she looked pissed at hell.

[Doodlebug1]

@Jealoushe

This whole thread is constructive.

There were too many falls for me, but going off what the RIDERS said, the course did not reward the horses. It punished them, even when jumped correctly. It took away confidence, not built it. One horse with a severe injury, one rider with a TBI, many bumps and bruises and one riders reputation out the window.

To me, this course has dropped eventings image down a few pegs, after the course at Rolex did the exact opposite.

I care most about horse welfare, and the future of our sport. After this event, it’s hard for those watching to be excited for eventing. The only ones that seem excited are the pros who do their back pat marathons on social media.

Seriously, some riders said the horses did not gain confidence - and some said they DID. Tina Cook definitely said hers grew in confidence, Ingrid did too. There was certainly one horse that the commentators were saying at the time started sticky and grew in confidence as they went around. So yes, some lost confidence and some gained.

‘one rider’s reputation out of the window’ HOW is that anyone’s fault other than that rider? C’mon. Sadly ditto the TBI, it is not ALWAYS someone’s fault. That’s not to say we shouldn’t figure out how to make things safer, but making things safer does not have to start with laying this level of blame… Especially as looking back to previous years there are some names of people being so scathing about skinny fences who are now full of vitriol about this course too.

Yes, I can (and probably should) just walk away from this thread - but it happens to be something I care about passionately too; it just seems there is a lack of accountability regarding the riders and the preparation - all the blame is being laid at the feet of the course designer and other officials, who do actually have standards they have to abide by. The people who have no standards to abide by are those doing the preparation, the fittening, the care of the horses… I’m not saying that should be regulated, just that there is immense variability and you can see that in the ways some horses thrived on the course and some less well prepared ones did not. And some, however well prepared had a moment of miscommunication, or a loose shoe, or… and luck played it’s part.

[Jealoushe]

I have to laugh because on one hand I criticize the riders and am told the course designers need also to be looked at, do the same to the course design and the opposite happens.

The bad decisions need to be held accounted for. The course needs to be held accounted for.

Do you have the clips where they said they gained confidence? I didn’t hear any of that so would be interested to hear it.

Just because the course is not riddled with skinnies is not going to automatically appease those who hated that type of course design. The striding on a lot of the fences was unforgiving. At this level a misread causes a fall many times over. Zara mentioned the stride out of water was such a long one stride that they questioned if the designer made an error in his distance.

On a fence we already know causes more falls than others (water, false groundline), we have a course designer making a distance that probably only %10 if that of the horses got. THAT is a problem, and it is a problem for the safety of all the horses and riders.

[BWP]

There a video of Emily’s fall, though it isn’t being shared publicly. I have seen a photo, which was posted on the H&H Facebook page, of Emily at the jump she fell at. The horse had clearly stood off massively and had no chance of clearing the back of the jump. Several people who were at the jump had said that it was a very heavy rotational landing.