Badminton 2017 Cross-country

Fine. I watched them.

Her stadium round. What people don’t post is that she had a bad spot on fence two. Hwin takes a long spot and if you stopped the video at 1 minute you’d see it. Who hasn’t and who has not had it work. she face plants the fence but remains up.

Let’s pause for a moment. You’re riding prelim stadium, you fuck up a spot on fence two and somehow after a face plant are still, what would you do? Not a rhetorical question. What would you do? Stop right there and end the round? You’re still on. horse is not hurt. you face three and jump it. Do you stop now, because of the fuck up at 2? Please Ford…at what point should she have stopped?

After that they complete a round and since that has been up for over a year, to pull it out now and say “ZOMG she’s a witch” is disingenuous. What I noticed was even after that mess at 2, Hwin had her ears forward. Tim Roake dropped four rails at Rolex and folks said “Well his horse does not like verticals”. Ummm, Ingrid got 16 penalties and stunk up Badminton with her round please let us vilify her. Hwin cleared a triple no issue, but couldn’t figure out combinations. I have seen worse, at Badminton, first round stadium. What I saw was a horse still willing, but not ready for Prelim. I’d love to take her on cross country once I got to know her, and her me.

So lets’ talk about the cc video. Hwin jumps the first two nice and her ears are up forward and she looks like she’s enjoying her run. At 30 secs she is presented with a Prelim brush which means it is a 3’6" solid with brush to almost 4’ (6" max). At 27 secs Hwin says “No fucking way” Elisa says you will do this. At 28 secs they straighten and Hwin jumps, not the center but the left side which means she jumped over 4’. having ridden a horse that will not touch green since it never schooled brush, I could see Hwin questioning Elisa, I could see Elisa saying you will do this and she did. Sterling was presented with a 2’11 solid and 3’5" brush top. He never had seen that before He questioned, I said we will do this and he did. At 33 secs we see her jumping the second brush, still not brushing so much but less hesitation, Stop the video at 44 secs as they go over a massive log. Oh my, ears pricked looking at the next element, which was water.

At 48 secs you can see both legs starting up, the left lagging. Still within 48 secs we then see the right over but not the left which might mean a rider error, because clearly Hwin was willing to do the in the water question. At 49 secs we see that Elisa, completely slipping the reins stays on the horse and by 50 secs, Hwin’s ears are forward again. At 53 she gives a slap encouragement to the horse as they move out. At 1 min they take a open rail fence with out any problem.

So, I watched the videos. Please feel free to tell us what you see. After this event Elisa took Hwin off competition for a year and stepped her back to training so yeah, she fucked up at badminton with her 4* horse, because the nature of the sport requires her to make choices, sometimes one’s that don’t turn out. She had a shitting round with a Mustang that no one paid any attention, didn’t note she backed off, didn’t note that she dropped to training, but were happy to bring it up a year later to show what a shit she is with horses.

I posted a record because I didn’t need to see a video, because I’ve seen horses pushed up the levels so fast that they are burnt out by the time they get to upper levels and we say it’s the horse’s fault, not the rider. In the case of Hwin, she was not pushed up, she was tested, found wanting and pulled back. Elisa mad a bad decision. She’ll pay for it, but in the scheme of things, she does not rate such vitriol unless she repeats.

As to the rest. We can take it off line after this if you wish, but I’ll say this. I’ve ridden for 10 years which is not a long time by some. But in those ten years I’ve been trained by some of the best, I’ve listened to their commentary, I’ve challenged their views and have been schooled. I’ve ridden a tired horse, I’ve ridden a horse that will give you the moon if you don’t manage. I’ve been broken by a horse, lifted to the top by horse, but never have thought to put myself or my personal gains in front of the horse’s welfare. I’ve taken the blame and when the horse said no, I worked with folks to help me get the horse to say yes willingly or we don’t do it. The fact that you’d measure comments by the “experience” or time in saddle is what narrows your view for even a child can school an adult if they step outside their ego.

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All of this is so true in my observation, and so telling.

Agree – not looking to invade Gilruth’s privacy or intrude on her family’s distress – but for a while there it was barely mentioned, when it needs to be freely acknowledged with some basic facts at minimum for statistical and safety purposes
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Equiratings should DEFINITELY take on course designers, too. Are they doing anything with individual fence types? I know we already have some data on that, which hasn’t led to many changes, but if equiratings takes off, maybe they can put additional focus on individual fence design, too.

If it’s the one I’m thinking of, too, the point was not that the course was a confidence building one per se, just that that horse was looking so bad for a while that commentators and COTHERs alike were saying the rider should pull up. Then the pair did finish better than they were looking for so long – but only in comparison to how bad they looked for quite a stretch there, not in an overall way. Newsam is the rider I am talking about.


I honestly don’t think Course Designers are being put forth as sole scapegoats here in this discussion, or anywhere else. I think it’s more that we are discussing course design as one of the factors in which safety can and should be discussed, studied, improved. However, we have a history of just perpetuating course designs that we know empirically to be problematic, but we keep doing anyway, in both individual and broader aspects (meaning, we know certain jumps are problematic, like jumps in water and certain types of tables, but we are still using those; and poor CDs keep getting used over and over until, eventually and much belatedly, they are finally passed over for other options). So I suspect that some of the calls for looking at course design and course designers are motivated by having been rather set in our ways and extremely slow about improving those things in the past.


I agree with JP60 that it would be nice to hear that some response or at least note for possible investigation is being officially made re: the issue of loose horses. I don’t know that any realistic or effective options exist, but it would be great if something could be officially noted and considered for investigation or even actually investigated.

Overall, I very strongly wish eventing as a sport had more of a reflexive response of trying to investigate and improve rather than a reflex of assuming nothing can be done or changed or improved.


Finally, may we please try to challenge the assumption that criticism (even a lot of it) = a witch hunt? In this thread alone, first anyone who offered even a passing criticism of a rider was called ridiculous names or said to be hoping someone had gotten injured, now some posters are talking about course design improvements and suddenly that’s a witch hunt, too, etc. etc. Seriously, IT’S NOT A WITCH HUNT. We just CARE and want to see things improved. And everyone, from riders needing to learn to protect their horses better to coaches needing to coach better to course designers possibly needing to improve their courses – it can all be investigated for possible improvement. Criticism does not equal figurative lynching.

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I agree.

I don’t know if the GJ has pulled out the “we can’t be everywhere at once” this time. But every member of the livestream audience was watching that travesty for several minutes. The commentators mentioned it. And whoever was directing the livestream would have had the view of several course cameras on several screens, all at once.

If another member of the GJ needs to be added to keep a weather eye on the camera feeds, that needs to be done. It is not ok to ignore the technology that can make this risk sport safer and better. Part of the right to livestream the event should be accommodating that official as a viewer. Maybe 2 officials.

This is not a casual nice-to-have benefit of the technology. There are many cases where it could be life-saving, either as a preventative when a potentially perilous situation is more easily recognized and addressed, or after something happens with a more immediate and complete information about the situation.

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This! I can’t believe how many people are piping up on my social media feed praising her, droning on about “not judging”, etc. Honestly, I think she has to give her head a serious shake. Riding a horse that tired? Disgusting and inexcusable. Leaving the horse with strangers and stomping off angrily? Also disgusting and inexcusable. I don’t care how much pressure she was under, if your ego is bigger than your concern for your horse’s welfare, you should not be running around those courses.

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oh good god no! Although it did prove that you can get better on the course.

Mark Todd (second on the course) started slow but towards the end of the course the commentators remark how he started slow but got more confident (the horse, not the rider!).

Austin O’Connor, complimented on his riding and keeping the horse confident.

Imogen Murray - listen to the commentary as she finished and how she had given the horse a confident giving round.

To name just a few. (but specifically it was Toddy and Imogen I had been thinking of).

People who had a stop but were still delighted with their rounds and did not in any way describe them as confidence sapping:
Tina Cook - both in interview and when she joined the commentary
Jonty Evans
Lissa Green
An Italian guy who went through the finish as though he and the horse had won, he was so delighted!

Again to name a few.

So, I guess I’m trying to say that an integral part of being successful is being confident and positive and confident enough to adapt and ride what is happening - and if you are always looking for fault and everything to be someone else’s fault you are taking your eye off one of the key things that really does make the sport safer. Of course there should be technological improvements and ground jury improvements, and course designer improvements, but ‘blaming’ the course designer for a tired horse as someone here did is just not, to me, constructive.

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Yes, good point. But I guess what I was trying to say is there were a number of routes - the left, the right, the Toddy route and the long route (at least). Almost all riders went for the left hand route, which suggests they did not think it was that unfair.

Fences the riders thought were terrible at course walk:
the bullfinch (one stop)
the gates (one rider stupidly angled them - a definite no and something they should have known better than to do at that level)
the corral (which did cause a few problems)

The bullfinch and the gates, if you listen to the commentators, rode much better than anticipated and the second part of the corral also rode better than anticipated (some of the errors such as LK were at part 1, it was specifically part 2 riders had been concerned by).

Fences that rode less well than expected:
exit from the lake
Hildon water complex
Outlander Bank

One way, but not the only way, of coping with the unexpected is by having riders (and horses) able to change and adapt and react and that needs to be fostered and nurtured as much as any other safety aspect, if not more. Contrast the commentary about Lauren through the Hildon water and Toddy - Lauren trying to dictate a stride, Toddy riding what comes to him, THAT is what sets apart good cross country riding.

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I don’t know EW personaly, but I was impressed with what she did with the mustangs. If nothing else, it raised awareness and hopefully saved some. So, for that, I give her credit.
I’m not going to comment on the fall and her reaction. Who knows what she was thinking. But, I was surprised that the announcers commented on the fact she angled the upright, expressing confusion why someone on a tired horse would do that. They chalked it up to inexperience. So if the announcers were concerned, my main question is where was the ground jury? Why didn’t they react? The horse was visibility tired, and a big mistake was made, but without consequence. Shouldn’t the GJ have intervened at that point?

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At that level ALL riders must be able to react to what is presented to them. Surely there’s no advocacy for placing fences in combinations with random distances just to see who can survive.

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I can tell you exactly when I would stop. First, I’d check my horse’s knees after it went to them when it swam through an oxer. That jump did not stay up, the pole is 10 or 15 feet out from the fence. You can see it as she goes around the next turn.

But if the horse is OK, since she clearly missed badly OK to continue a bit – but then the horse can’t make the distance in the combination and chests the second part. Time to stop. But she goes on and chests out the next combination and has a hard hit at the last.

I used to show ponies in the 3’6-3’9 jumpers all the time so I can tell you, you can’t take the long distance to a big oxer on a green pony. You need a good canter and to go forward to the base to be fair to the pony. forward to the base is good; extreme chips are not because they have no space or balance to get up around the front rail. She kept asking it for long spots that were totally impossible for that pony to make on the canter she was using. Then it failed and she continued to do the same thing again. It that won’t take the heart out of a horse, I don’t know what will.

And it seems to have lost its confidence. There is a video of her jumping Hwin over a 4’ skinny bareback 4 months after getting her from the wild. that’s rushing, however good you are, and it has repercussions. I am not a huge fan of the Retired Racehorse Project type events because I feel like it leads to a lot of horses rushed by people who want to win or prove something, those rather than take the horse at a pace that is best for it. I love, love, love TBs and have two myself, this is not about disliking TBs or mustangs. But that’s another thread.

as I said before, I didn’t think the XC was that bad. it was only bad if she decided to jump around prelim XC after having that stadium round, because if you chest a solid jump like she chested several of the stadium jumps, that is how rotational falls happen. The stadium jumps fall, albeit still not a good experience for a horse. But the XC will catch the knees and cause rotation. It would have been dangerous. I don’t know what order that event was run in, though, so I can’t say. I hope it was XC first in which case, it was rocky but within the range of reasonable.

I don’t think she is a bad rider. She is a great rider, much better than I will ever be, and I think her apparent awesomeness has led to people being really disappointed when the wheels fall off. I have hopes for her in the future. she’s made a few mistakes, who hasn’t? she appears to have learned from the Hwin one (which I didn’t know about, and I don’t think most posters did, so that is why that has gotten so much attention). I think a lot of people have really pointed Elisa out as a role model, and to find the clay feet can cause a lot of disillusion.

I am sure she will learn from Johnny’s Badminton too and come out the better horseperson for it. I look forward to seeing her in the future.

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someone mentioned they’re able to watch the XC replay? where? I still don’t see anything on the Badders YT channel.

https://www.badminton-horse.co.uk/badminton-live/ under the video of the first horse inspection is a line that says ‘if you are in the UK, you can watch here’ and there is a link. You would have to have a proxy server set up.

you are taking what I said completely out of context. There were not ‘random distances’ in the combinations, there were carefully thought out and planned distances that for whatever reason, did not jump as expected. THAT is what we should not be ‘blaming’ and should be encouraging good training and riding to allow for.

Ah, thank you – unfortunately not in the UK. I thought I read somewhere that a replay would be available Monday 3 PM on their YT channel. Time to do more digging… I missed a lot of the XC on Saturday and wanted to catch up.

This is my biggest concern. One girl on Instagram posted how EW was her hero and everyone should shut up and she wants to ride just like her. This is my biggest beef with making ULRs celebs that maybe are not quite deserving of that status. It is not good to see so many teen eventers thinking what she did was OK. BIG concern to me.

Regarding the water line - the riders said the distance was not a one or a two - it seemed impossibly long one but not enough to make the two. Luckily event horses are clever and many figured it out. I think that is an inappropriate question at a fence that has a %75 chance higher risk for a fall.

Regarding MJs quote - that wasn’t about building confidence. He said Sam was strong and not listening at the beginning and then settled and was listening well after the first water. Ingrid said the same but further down the course. Neither of them were talking about the course building their horses confidence.

Regarding Hwin at the Prelim event - if you think that is an acceptable Prelim round, then you need some major education in what it means to be ready for that level in eventing. Prelim is a place for horses who are trained, not a place to be training them.

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I don’t know, when Ian Stark, Zara Tindell and Tina Cook all say the water distances are ridiculous, I tend to side with them, as they have ridden these courses many times over.

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Go to their Youtube channel, and then at the top, like a lot of search engines, it has a choice of all, news, videos. Click on videos.

Okay, HAND TO GOD, there was no XC option when I checked this morning! And I am subscribed to Badder’s YT channel… last notification I got was for AN’s highlights…

But for anyone else blind as a bat like me, here’s the replay:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_eMFptrExs

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I’m going to point out some hypocrisy in the eventing world here. Marilyn Little got blasted for riding an extremely fatigued horse and pushing at Rolex until they fell. Many were saying that she “needs to just go back to the hunter jumper world already” and so on. Here we have another rider, who has proven to have several horsemanship mistakes (who actually got yellow carded) and everyone is backing her and saying not to bash her. Not one word about the several horses who pulled up at badminton with bloody mouths and their riders needing yellow cards or to be suspended. Most of them, their names have barely been mentioned. Now, I’m not saying ML didn’t deserve the shaming, what I’m saying is that EW deserves it just as much as ML. Also, a huge shout to Lainey Ashker being awesome and running to help the horse while the rest of the team was on the way. I would not be surprised if Lainey actually told Elisa to go sit down and catch her breath, that she had the horse and all would be well. I know I might feel a bit more comfortable knowing a trusted friend was watching over. It does not excuse the riding or the apparent attitude after the fall.
@Ford I believe XC is run before stadium at Red Hills. I would have at least circled after fence two and if all was okay maybe jumped the next vertical for confidence and excused myself for another day. It was obvious from the start that they pony didn’t have the stride or confidence for the combinations. It has amazing scope, and I would love to see it in the pony jumpers where the distances are set for ponies.

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Amen to everything above.

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MoonLadyIsis hasn’t read the thread.

MoonLadyIsis, you just wasted your time and anyone else’s time who read your post. This thread has raked Elisa over the coals again and again and again. Pages and pages of it.

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