WEG rules showed up in the FEI rulebook in this year’s edition. When they say 3 or 4 members, they are saying that a team can consist of either 3 or 4 members, as it has been for the past Olympic cycle. Three of the four scores will count, which is why countries can form teams even if they only have 3 riders qualified. The 3 or 4 is not an indication that they haven’t decided what it will be yet.
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Well, the gist of the last 24 pages of comments is that riders will be crucified for pushing for a completion, and equally spoken poorly of for pulling up. We can “what if” to death. What if EW had pulled up when she felt her horse tire? What if HSB had pushed on and had Harbour Pilot get injured? What if LK had pushed for time and gambled right for a top ten finish, or tipped up at the upright gates?
I think back back to Normandy WEG, and two American team riders put their horses welfare first in wretched footing, electing to retire and sinking a team completion. Could they have been better prepared for running in slop, sure; but by preparing in lousy footing you risk injuring your horse before you even get to the big show. How do you prepare for that safely?
It’s damned if you do and damned if you don’t. No wonder the big names ignore the non-participating masses.
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@Divine Comedy that article is over a year old. I was speaking in reference to the recent events - Rolex and Badminton.
I don’t think the posters here have thin skin. It’s just boring to read over and over about how the internet should shut up already.
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@Jealoushe, I posted three articles. The EN one is from March of this year. The USEF one was right before Rolex. Yes, the COTH one is more than a year old. Here are three more COTH ones more recent that either feature or mention Madeline:
http://www.chronofhorse.com/article/a-rolex-rookie-and-her-cookies
Look, I’m just saying is that what you’re asking for from EN and COTH? Those stories exist. Those outlets are giving you what you’re asking for. Madeline wasn’t the only non-BN rider getting some decent press leading up to Rolex; the stories were so overwhelming in the weeks before that I couldn’t keep up with reading all of them.
We’ll have to disagree about posters here having thin skin. Many posters here seem to take it as a personal affront whenever some BN rider comments on internet criticism (not even specifically COTH, but internet criticism in general), or when someone calls for a little more understanding from the general public. Perhaps everyone should remember that respect is earned, not given.
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A lot of the time they are directing their articles at CoTH. Not sure if this recent one was because the general consensus here was that Lynn and Donner were a strong pair and we were happy she made it home safe with a shoe missing.
If the riders spent more time reflecting in their programs and training rather than trying to push the notion that ammies know nothing and we better leave it to the pros to make all the comments and decisions than maybe we wouldn’t get so worked up all the time.
What respect are we talking about here, respect from BNRs? Are they better than us now for some reason and we have to respect them by keeping quiet? It goes both ways. Maybe the BNRs who are upset with the internet should have some respect for the riders who fund their sport.
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I fail to see how Symanski could be offended by what was said about her on this forum after the shoe business got out. Everyone was both sympathetic and complimentary. If she is concerned about the treatment of her fellow BNRs, it ain’t her dog in the fight.
Remember years ago when she first appeared on the scene with Donner, how her father posted here, and how supportive everyone was?
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Do you genuinely think UL riders spend so much time agonizing over the criticism of ammies who ‘know nothing’ that they are neglecting their programs and training? I’m not afraid to voice my political opinion but I’m not neglecting my job or my horses or my social life while voicing said opinion. It doesn’t take up time or energy to have an opinion or to speak said opinion.
And again…of course they don’t love getting criticized by the masses. Of course they want us to stop. Why is this continually a source of confusion? No one likes getting piled on, and we all know COTH loves a good pile-on. Does that mean it is going to stop? No. Should it stop? I don’t necessarily think so. Are the riders going to always be disgruntled by it? Yes.
Yes, respect from BNRs is earned. You seem to want their respect of your opinion. Why is it surprising that BN riders don’t necessarily give much weight to the opinion of vaguely anonymous posters on a bulletin board? If you want your voice respected, you don’t have to compete at 4* but you do have to earn the respect of the riders by being involved with the sport in a way that causes the riders to respect you. Max Corcoran, Emma Ford, Marilyn Payne. Rob Burke, Kevin Baumgardner, Joanie Morris. Farriers, vets, phsyios, countless others. These are folks who have never run a 4* and yet I’d bet money that when they speak, UL riders listen and consider their thoughts.
Respect is earned. You don’t earn it by sitting behind a keyboard and competing quietly in your own corner of the world. You don’t earn it by ‘supporting’ the sport through a member fee and a few entries every year. No one cares how many 4* you have watched in person or on the Internet, how many books you have read, or how many clinics you have taken with Jimmy Wofford. These riders have to learn who you are, have to hear you out, and have to listen to what you say as an individual whose name and maybe face they know to decide whether they should respect your opinion.
Does that mean you have to have competed 4* for them to respect you? No. But people respect your opinion based on their individual evaluation of your knowledge. A lot of the COTH posters here have some very strong opinions and yet clearly lack in basic knowledge of the sport. Other posters have a huge amount of knowledge, and probably when they speak privately to UL riders they know, their opinions ARE respected. I’m not surprised that collectively though, COTH and viral FB posters get tossed into the ‘they don’t know what they are talking about’ basket.
And to be hurt that they don’t accept the collective opinion of COTH…well most of the time COTH can’t even figure out it’s own collective opinion.
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Again, I suspect that Lynn’s blog was aimed more at the viral FB post that Patrick McGaughan wrote, which heavily criticized her and LK for going slow, and HSB for retiring. It lauded Bea di Grazia’s run w/two falls decades ago as a shining example of what we should do and gave EW a pass for pushing Simply Priceless past his fitness capability because she apologized with no mention of her behavior afterwards.
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McGaughan appears the type who would also make complimentary statements about UK Princess Margaret ride in Olympics a few decades ago where she had a bad fall, was helped back onto horse, and completed the course with no memory of it later.
I apologize if I have some of the details wrong as to place and time
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I agree with DC’s POV here, but I’m going to jump in and mention that the “respect needs to be earned” goes both ways. I’ve volunteered countless hours, I’ve been an event secretary for an FEI level event, I’ve been a stabling manager, I’ve scored at popular Area 2 events for the past 8+ years. I’ve done more than my fair share for this sport as a competitor, volunteer, and member. But as much as I hate to say it, many of these BNRs have giant chips on their shoulders. I’ve seen volunteers being treated rudely and heard BNRs say some seriously nasty things behind their backs simply because they made a mistake. I’ve personally been treated like a second class citizen by an Olympian because he wouldn’t pay his bill. I get it, sometimes people have a bad day, but when I see the same behavior repeated over and over… it hits a nerve.
That’s not to say there aren’t wonderful, thankful BNRs who are classy and respectful. There are plenty, and fortunately the good outnumber the bad. (And I’ve also seen/experienced disrespectful ammys, so it’s not only the pros who are guilty of bad behavior. :winkgrin:) But the more time I spend in this sport and the more I see of eventing becoming a commodity rather than a sport where ammys and pros respectfully share the same playing field, the less tolerance I see between the two groups. And sadly, the gap between ammys and pros will continue to grow wider as a result. :no:
P.S. That being said, the names you added (“Max Corcoran, Emma Ford, Marilyn Payne. Rob Burke, Kevin Baumgardner, Joanie Morris. Farriers, vets, phsyios, countless others, etc”) may have never competed at the 4-star level, but this sport is their profession. They get respect because it’s their job, and BNRs see them as equals (or more). 
Just as an example: there are 2 names on list that weren’t very civil to me when I was working at an event. I may not have been their equal in terms of profession/experience/influence (and it was painfully aware that they had zero respect for me despite the fact my name was even in the damn omnibus for that event), but I smiled and continued to to my job, because that’s what I was there for.
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God, I love this.
[quote=“kcmel,post:719,topic:431532”]
I’m sure a major contributor to this is blind luck, but I’d love an answer too. If at Badminton she really went the fastest she possibly could without the shoe, I don’t like the fact that one of the best xc combinations could be knocked out of the Olympics because of footwear. Is there really no way around this? It’s clearly not that they hadn’t been set in a while, since they re-set overnight and the same shoe went flying in SJ the next day…
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Princess Margaret, indeed. :eek:
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You are totally right, it’s a two way street. I absolutely lose respect for any rider as a person when they treat anyone like second class citizens, and treating volunteers poorly goes over badly in my book. However…I don’t necessarily lose my respect for their skill as a rider. One can be a poor example of a person and a good rider, or a good rider but a bad horseman. How many times have you ever commented that “So and so is nice but she misses a lot” or “I really don’t like X rider but man can he get a horse around XC.”
I’m sorry that some of the names I listed have treated you poorly, I actually don’t know any of those I listed personally. I am simply using them as examples of people who haven’t run 4* but whose opinion may still be respected by 4* riders. It is not as simple as 4* riders not respecting the opinions of those who haven’t run 4*.
Respecting one person in one way doesn’t mean we value their opinion in another. I respect the opinion of my DH in regards to many things but if he tried to tell me how I should best ride to jump an XC fence, I’d laugh him off. If he offered his opinion enough though and it was clear that by watching enough XC fences he actually did have a good point, I’d start to listen. It would take time and many opinions offered for me to respect that opinion. You don’t have to have done the activity in question, but if you haven’t you better be damn well able to prove you know what you’re talking about for your opinion to be listened to…and it will take time for said listener to decide that you do in fact know enough to have a valid opinion.
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Guilty as charged (on the good person/bad rider and vice versa). :winkgrin:
It’s funny, when I was working at that event where I had those interactions, I mentioned to someone who is very well-respected person in eventing but not a BNR that I didn’t understand if it was me or whether people were weird and rude. She said, “No, a lot of people in this sport are just weird and rude.” :lol:
Isn’t that the truth! :lol:
Well first of all I have competed in many corners of the world, 5 countries, 2 continents actually. I have spoken with 4* winners, ridden with some yes, but introduced myself and discussed things with them when I get the chance. For people to just assume everyone on the internet has a worthless opinion is pretty ignorant. I would think any eventer who knows anything would be able to sort through the garbage and the good stuff on this forum. I’m not saying my opinion is right, but they can decide for themselves without making out like we are all trolls. Didn’t think I had to hand out resumes to have an opinion.
Not sure why you keep going back to saying hurt…I am certainly not hurt by their whining about people on social media. Bored of it yes. I just think it’s tacky and a waste of energy for them to include it in every single article lately…I get it, you don’t want to hear the opinions of the internet. But don’t make it out like the opinions of others are nothing simply because they are not big name riders.
To be honest there are some ULRs I could care less about whether they respected me or not. Others, I would gladly do what I can to be respected by them. Horsemanship and horse care are the most important to me, and sadly these days a lot of Pros put that as a not important part of their program…horses are just a way to make money. So I’m not really sure why you are on a tangent about respect. This is merely a place we can come and discuss what we want for our sport, I don’t write on here and hope that TPTB are reading it and making changes. If I want something done I act on it.
You don’t have to have done the activity in question, but if you haven’t you better be damn well able to prove you know what you’re talking about for your opinion to be listened to…and it will take time for said listener to decide that you do in fact know enough to have a valid opinion.
as for this comment well, it goes both ways too. The other side shouldn’t just assume someone knows nothing because they don’t know the person. Perhaps they should be looking for respect from the crowd as you suggest we look for respect from them.
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We’ll have to differ here because I think the default one should take with any fact or opinion on the Internet should be that the opinion shouldn’t be taken seriously unless they can prove they actually have some solid knowledge or experience with said subject. It’s the Internet for crying out loud. Filled with trolls on every comment thread. Maybe that makes me cynical but I’d lean more towards the term realistic.
And for the record, I love reading the opinions on the Internet. I clearly love posting them myself. I’m on Reddit every day too. I’m not saying we should shut up in anyway. But my reaction when UL riders cry about armchair quarterbacks is to shrug and keep offering my opinion. I don’t really give a fig if a UL decides to take it seriously or not.
Fine, you’re not hurt, you’re bored with it. So gloss over it when articles mention it, then we can stop talking about it and focus on the actual substance in articles and blogs like Lynne’s.
I’m not getting into horsemanship and horse care, I’ll agree they are paramount and also that I have seen both wonderful and awful examples of horsemanship at UL. And at LL. This is unrelated to the topic we were discussing IMO.
The respect tangent isn’t a tangent. You were complaining about Lynn complaining that we need to be quiet. Very clearly Lynn doesn’t respect the opinion of the collective Internet. As she shouldn’t. You complained about it multiple times on this forum, as well as mentioned how EN wanted us all to shut up. So with all the times you mentioned it, it seemed to me that you were tired of them not respecting the Internet’s opinion. You didn’t use the word respect, but I brought it in because lack of respect is the reason why they want us to shut up.
And as I said before…no, I disagree that I should assume that someone knows something about the subject they are discussing. That may lead to me giving weight to an opinion from a person that has no clue what they are talking about. That’s why we are in the mess we are in today in politics. It’s less dangerous to accidentally disregard the opinion of someone with knowledge than to give serious weight and make changes based on the opinion of someone who has no idea what they are talking about.
Guess we will have to agree to disagree.
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Isn’t this literally what COTH does with 99% of unknown thread starters? Assumes troll until proven otherwise?
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One thing I’ve learned in a lifetime with horses is that wisdom, knowledge, insights, and solutions can come from just about anywhere.
Another thing I’ve learned is that you should respect other people and their opinions until they’ve done something to earn a lack of respect. Respect should be the norm, not the exception, and not a pre-requisite.
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Sort out your Princesses ! Princess Margaret may have ridden a lot of things but an Olympic eventing horse was not one of them.
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