Badminton 2017 Cross-country

For whatever it is worth, I read years ago that about 30 horseshoes are picked up from the course at Badminton every year. Shoes are also collected from the course at Rolex KY and etc. Horses lose shoes, especially in an environment like Badminton, and a LOT of horses are out on the course on XC day. That also happens in the Kentucky Derby, and it affects outcomes there as well. Until there is a horseshoe that can’t be lost, it’s one of the jeopardies to the final score. :slight_smile:

Back to the horses … I have to agree with those who find the America fandom commentary on the American riders to be unproductively boresighted on the placing and performance in the one current competition. Even as we remain wrapped around the axle of also-ran teams at WEG and the Olympics.

The real team-building benefit of Badminton and other 4*'s for the U.S. pairs is if horse and rider come away from the course a more confident and able 4* pair. Part of confidence-building is a horse feeling it was not over-faced or over-exhausted. We all know that those two problems have the potential create long-standing issues, thus degrading the potential for a future team.

There is a lot of ground for the U.S. to make up in fielding a podium-contender WEG team in only a year. Over the past many years this is where we chronically seem to be positioned, re team-building. Even though I personally think we have a greater number of very promising pairs at the top of the U.S. sport than we have had in many years, and yet the best of them are still not what we need to fight for a spot on the podium if WEG were running this summer.

And this is where this concept of ‘respect’ for opinions and input may be breaking down the inability of the U.S. to develop a better team, from one WEG/Olympics to the next. Like others who comment, I can’t begin to tell anyone how to ride the London bank at Badminton. But many of the opinionaters have something important to add in terms of things other than riding that are crucial for team development , re universal basics of building up individuals that can make up a future successful team. And, building a cooperative and competent team structure, both among the athletes and the organization.

We’ve got top raw talent in horses and riders, raw talent is NOT the problem. The problem is our skills in team development, starting with developing the talent over the long term. So that we have a continuous pipeline of successful pairs for team selection, as do the other nations who are the usual faces on the podium at WEG and the Olympics.

And, the development has to be done with the type of resources that we have available in the U.S., not some ideal European model that we don’t have. Or, just accept our lack of access to better instruction and training at earlier stages of development, as well as multiple annual 4*'s for a much larger base of riders, and therefore adopt more modest priorities and goals suitable to less-adequate resources. Especially the necessary limitations of competing in Europe to give far more riders and horses more 4* experience.

Finding people to blame, boring down on individual riders, is no help. Finding a better team development model is what is needed. And I think there have been significant improvements in the last 8 to 10 years, it just hasn’t been spread widely enough. We do have more resources and more pairs that are better prepared. Just not nearly enough pairs that can go top-3 against Jung, Todd, Klimke, etc.

Did Veronica come away from Badminton a more confident and able 4* horse, capable of a more competitive future performance? If the answer is yes, then Lauren did her job. Did Lauren add to her own skillset that will make her an even better rider over 4*'s to come? Did the two of them cross the finish line with a new experience that will make them even more competitive in the future as a pair? The same question holds for each of the American pairs - how did the Badminton experience improve the horse and the rider, both individually and as a pair, as part of the pool of the best pairs for team selection? Re team-building, that is really all that matters at this point in time.

How different the team-building perspective is for some of the other countries. Country teams can only choose four, and certain have more than that who would also comprise a credible gold-medal contender team, thanks to the country’s organized team-development skills, as has been discussed at length on this board. They aren’t running on good fortune or fairy-tale careers, but on a system that works. Clearly the U.S. is not at that rank, in international team eventing, at this point in time. The real topic is not the micro-view of picking apart each performance, but the macro view of how much the Badminton experience improved the pairs for future team selection.

And I’ve mentioned this before … part of team-building in this day and age is coaching BNR’s who may be in the team selection pool in how to handle today’s news and social media. Someone has recognized this as both HSB and EW came out with quickly-released, but still carefully crafted statements, just after they got the heaviest early criticism. I doubt either of them handled that on their own. The public needs some images to believe in and follow and there are methods of creating and sustaining those images that are well-honed and available. These days it seems to be as important to being a team candidate as the riding, and that can’t be wished away.

I think DOC made a very good effort at more professional team management. I think he did add team-based coaching to the U.S. riders at Badminton. But throughout his career as coach, he needed far more cooperation than he got from both the team organization and the individual riders. He was not able to define his role as he needed to do. That’s how I read his story. I expect him to bring his professional approach to FEI safety and I wish him the best in that role - knowing that won’t be easy, either, with some of the same shortcomings in organizational cooperation.

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I disagree. I can be polite and listen to a person and their opinion. But until they’ve proven to me that their opinion has a basis in something, I will not necessarily respect (i.e. give any weight) to their opinion.

Perhaps this is why I am not religious. I have trouble putting any weight in something that has not been proven. If a person proves to me (either through extensive conversations in which I continuously evaluate their statements against my knowledge base or Google if the discussion passes beyond my knowledge base) that they have enough of a foundation to back up those statements, then I will respect their opinion. Until that time, I will listen and be polite and open to hearing their idea but will not necessarily take any action.

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Respect does not mean ‘taking action’.

I wouldn’t want to go through life with such a fundamentally negative opinion of other people.

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Regarding respect and knowledge . . . repeating here briefly a story from Denny Emerson’s FB page about two up-and-coming young riders who were greeted at a competition by an elderly woman who wanted to talk with them about their horses. . . young riders gave this person the brush off, the merest of greetings, the cold shoulder. The elderly woman? An owner and life-long eventing supporter with a wealth of knowledge and connections and still a keen interest. I’m sure she was wise enough to understand, folly of youth and all that, but still, what a terrible thing: who knows, had those two young riders been kind and respectful, they might have learned something, they might have gained a support. We’ll all be that elder someday.

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Maybe I’m skipping a step here. Respect is “a feeling of deep admiration for someone or something elicited by their abilities, qualities, or achievements.” If I respect a person for the subject they are discussing, then I give weight to their opinion and therefore may take action on it.

However, I don’t respect someone for the subject they are discussing until I know I should, through methods I previously mentioned. Politics is a great example of this…lots of politicians try to tell their constituents how best to do something when in fact they have no idea what they are talking about.

Don’t confuse my respect for my manners. I am courteous and will listen non-concomitantly to their opinion. That is not the same as respect. I would be courteous to a buffoon, but not respect them.

You can view it as negative all you want, I prefer to view it as prudent in this age of information (and opinion) overload. It’s not a negative view of people themselves; one can be a lovely person without an informed opinion. It’s a guarded evaluation of information/opinion intake.

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Yeah, that’s not what I’m saying.

I’m pretty polite to everyone I meet face to face, and I would happily take a minute to listen to this elderly woman, regardless of who she is. I would be courteous and listen. Any information or opinions offered I would file away and upon parting ways I would do some digging. If I found out she had reasons to know what she was discussing, i.e. eventing supporter as you say, then the information would remain in my mind and I would evaluate it as worthy of examination and possibly take action in my methods to implement it. This would be an example of my respect of her opinion via her resume essentially.

If I found nothing on her, I would discard the information. Perhaps I could be discarding a valuable bit of information, but if there is risk that it is a total newbie to horses giving me her opinion, I do not want to just believe what I am told blindly. This is an example of me treating her courteously, but not necessarily with respect for her opinion. Notice I still respect her as a human being. This is the difference I am trying to communicate between respecting people and respecting their expertise in a particular topic.

If I found nothing on her but began running into her again and again and she offered more and more conversations, revealing as we talked the reasons for her base of knowledge, all of the information and opinions would then again be regarded as valuable. This is an example of me initially not respecting her opinion but eventually, with time, coming to respect it due to continued exposure to her.

Asking UL riders to give weight to the COTH opinion, i.e. ‘Smurfs’ is about as effective as the second instance. Probably less so actually, because as a group we have both strong and weak levels of expertise, and those with strong opinions but lack of knowledge are generally the ones that ‘outsiders’ from COTH assign to us. If we engage those riders on an individual basis, we may come to fall into the third example, even if our experience resume is not particularly strong in their eyes.

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That isn’t why I was posting here though. My post was merely about them to please quit whining about the internet opinions…I never said anything about them respecting my online opinion. Like I said a hundred times, I’m just bored of it. They don’t want any person saying anything negative about them and make it out like any opinion other than theres is just incorrect but…that isn’t true. They already have an image of thinking they are better than the “smurfs”, they don’t need to exacerbate it.

If they don’t respect my opinions ranted on CoTH, I’m not losing sleep over it. I was merely commenting along this discussion.

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Yesterday on Facebook, Sara Kozumplink Murphy Equestrian (public page) shared what appeared to be a photo of a Capt Mark Phillips Opinion piece in Horse and Hound re Badminton 2017. The headline is ‘Make the Questions More Forgiving’. The article doesn’t seem to be public facing on the H&H web site, but if you check out Sara Kozumplink Murphy Equestrian FB page, you can take a look there - very interesting read including CMP saying he felt sorry for Eric Winters.

I’m thinking that was written before DOC announced he was stepping down. Not mincing words there, are ya Captain. “A pitiful display by the large US contingent” (large?) In a rare moment, I’d have to agree with the ol chap.

Seeing as CMP tends to also create harsh courses, his tone it down attitude seems a bit off. However his words do seem to support the general feeling that this was not a great course for horses or riders.

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So - you are saying that you are incapable of judging the wisdom or otherwise of an opinion, unless you have studied the resume of the speaker. All that research must take a long time.

Man - that’s sad.

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Who knew snobbery was such hard work? :slight_smile:

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He may make complimentary statements BUT The Princess Royal was concussed and was put back in the saddle. It was always her policy that should she suffer a heavy fall that she NOT be put back in the saddle. She was none to pleased that this occurred. When she asked about the situation, she was told that she asked to be helped back in the saddle…though she does not remember that. She does not believe that she did, indeed, ask for be placed back in the saddle because it was NEVER her policy to remount after a heavy fall.

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As someone mentioned earlier (in a very amusing manner I must say) the Queen’s sister, the late Princess Margaret, had never ridden an eventing horse (or any other horse for that matter) in the Olympics.
Princess Anne, the Queen’s daughter however, has done so. Remember her? Zara’s mum…:yes:

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As snoopy said; The Princess Royal. https://www.royal.uk/the-princess-royal

Yes, Anne not Margaret. I was referring to the earlier post (the amusing one) which is why I didn’t quote snoopy (who did not include the link that you did) No one has mentioned the confusion since the one amusing post and I was surprised by that. Sorry if I didn’t make myself clear.:slight_smile:

Clearly I don’t have a very good knowledge of the various members of the British Royal Family.

At least my confusion was able to bring some levity to this thread.

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It is difficult to keep all the titles straight and it was a long time ago when Princess Anne rode in the Olympics.

I thought Equibrit’s comment regarding Princess Margaret’s “riding” was very funny, so thanks for your post. I’m sure no one means to offend you by making fun of your confusion between the two Princesses.:yes:

1976 Olympics at Bromont. I like to think we have evolved as a sport since then:

http://montrealgazette.com/sports/montreal-olympics-photo-flashback-concussion-didnt-stop-princess-anne-in-equestrian-competition

Elisa Wallace has put up her first vlog since Badminton -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIDKIHVP3dY&feature=youtu.be

Not really any big reveals in what she says, but she does address what happened. I respect and commend her for putting it out there in her own words.

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I think that was honest and heartfelt. It shows that not all is as it seems and I truly feel that she did feel hurt, letting her horse down like that. Life lessons are not always pleasant, but this seems to indicate she got the message. I look forward watching them again down the road.

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