balance of wildlife and barn cats/feral cats

I grew up with indoor/outdoor cats. As an adult, I’ve only had indoor cats. At first that was due to the shorter average lifespan of our cats that had been able go outside. Later on, I read the studies that show how much species diversity is reduced by cats in areas where they are allowed to roam. I loved my cats and wanted them to live long, safe lives, and even so, I didn’t want to favor my little buddies over the dozens of other species that lived around my home.

Some friends of mine let their cat out all she wanted, in a suburban neighborhood. My friends knew my point of view, but denied that their cat killed more than the occasional lizard. When I brought my young dog over to visit, we sat in the back yard and let her run around. My pup found something on the ground and was going to eat it, but I’d taught her to Trade, to bring me the thing she had in exchange for a treat. I called her over to trade and it was a delicate little ball of bird bones and feathers, remnants of a bird that had obviously been consumed by a cat. My pup kept finding them and trading until I was out of a big handful of treats. More than 20 in their little yard.

They were a bit shocked, having never spotted these tiny remains before. They had no idea. I didn’t say anything about it, but within a couple months their cat became an indoor cat, and they built an enclosure that the cat could access through a window.

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You guys must have much more athletic cats than I do. One of mine can’t get on the sideboard (where her food is) without a step stool. I’ve never seen either of them climb a tree (although I’m sure I will be told that they do it when I’m not looking.)

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I have read a lot about this topic and have come to the conclusion that the effect of cats on bird populations is exaggerated. It’s a lot easier to blame cats than the real problem which is habitat destruction and global warming, because you know, that actually requires human beings to make sacrifices to their lifestyle and who’s going to do that?? As long as cats are being TNR’d they are not going to cause mass extinction of bird species the way these bird conversation organizations make it sound like. There are lots of people out there who hate and torture cats, it’s really sad.

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Let me get it finished and I will happily show off my haphazard and totally unprofessional monstrosity ! :lol:

How is it being exaggerated?

None of us that are concerned about the large decline of birds are blaming it solely on cats, nor are we saying that cats are the largest cause of the decline.

Humans are the largest reason of their decline from the multitude of things we do that causes devastating problems and issues for all wildlife. Cats are just one of the multiple problems we have introduced that causes part of the decline.

I personally want to be to be a part of slowing/ stopping the decline of our bird population and I choose to do whatever I can to support it. If I keep my cats contained I can possibly stop how many bird deaths, and each of those saved birds have how many babies a year? It may seem to be a small impact but if everyone did it, wouldn’t it be a much larger positive impact? It would definitely help counter-act the other issues that are killing larger numbers of birds.

I liken this to the people that still use toxic insecticides and weed killers. They think what they do is insignificant as well.

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Yes, but a larger impact on birds would be for me to get rid of my horses and stop mowing my lawn. One 5 acre field of hay being baled probably affects more birds and small animals than my cats can affect in a lifetime.

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Because even though we know that cats kill wild birds, there is no scientific evidence that it is affecting bird populations. and the"studies" aren’t based on actual measurable data. It’s all based on assumptions, estimates and extrapolations. Also they are run, funded and published by biased parties such as wildlife conservation groups. I keep my cats indoors, but I don’t think cats do the level of damage that warrants ferals to be euthanized, and unfortunately that’s what happens. TNR, and let them live their live out their lives outdoors, or in the barn!

There is a great deal of scientific evidence over decades which do indeed establish the enormous damage of cats. The reason the scientific method exists & the reason papers are published with a “methods” section is to show that hypotheses were indeed tested correctly without bias. While, just like everything else, there are good studies & bad ones, on this particular topic, there is a clear & overwhelming amount of data showing the issue is very real. Including video from cameras attached to cats.

Here is a very good systematic review of past data, with quantitative mortality analyses, from the world’s leading natural science journal, for some starter reading (from 2013, there has been quite a bit of work since then, but everyone here is capable of using Google Scholar). Note that “un-owned cats” includes farm/barn cats.
“We estimate that free-ranging domestic cats kill 1.3–4.0 billion birds and 6.3–22.3 billion mammals annually. Un-owned cats, as opposed to owned pets, cause the majority of this mortality. Our findings suggest that free-ranging cats cause substantially greater wildlife mortality than previously thought and are likely the single greatest source of anthropogenic mortality for US birds and mammals.”
Even on the lowest end of the modeled ranges, those are appalling numbers.
https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms2380?fbclid=IwAR1f4AXrbSQLCw-PbK4FuY5Y4SmBsz6Li5FzggXP50rHyzRUz-vBTdGy1ww

While not the only factor affecting native populations, cats are very much a huge & significant factor. As I stated before, dealing with one problem doesn’t mean ignoring the others. It means addressing what we can, when we can. As a rough analogy, keeping your horse’s hooves healthy by making sure he gets quality farrier care doesn’t mean that you ignore the role played by nutrition.

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Thank you, much easier for you to find and post proof than for me.

I strongly agree and support your words.

addressing what we can, when we can
…for all plant and wild life.

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I’m sorry but I don’t believe the first part of your reply is true.

I am quite torn with the 2nd part of your post. I don’t think feral cats have earned or deserve the “sh!t show” they have been dealt and have to fight every day just to survive because of stupid and uncaring humans. At the same time it is what it is and in some largely overpopulated areas it needs to be dealt with properly and/or humanely.

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all those studies prove is that cats do kill birds. In other words, mortality. That’s not the same as causing a population decline. You’d find similar mortality numbers on caused by Cooper’s Hawks for example, but that is not resulting in a population decline

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Yeah…I love my (indoor) kitties, but as a breed they are ruthless. I remember a barn I worked at for years; when I’d come in to feed in the AM there would almost invariably be a bullfrog in various stages of “murdered” in the aisleway :no: It was awful. The barncat there was a huntress with no equal.I ended up taking one home that she kindly chewed the legs off of; had him as a pet for quite awhile (his stumps healed up).

On the other hand, there’s a staggering number of kitties that aren’t equipped to be inside cats. A conundrum for sure.

ETA: Wonder if these do anything, in reality: https://www.birdsbesafe.com/ :confused:
I always thought if there was a safe way to warn prey about the cats it would be grand.

@Big_Tag the “birds be safe” collars do significantly reduce bird kills. I LOVE them. Their data says 87% reduction in bird kills and I would agree based on my own experience. I use them on my indoor/outdoor house cats. They also have a reflective piping that shows up in car headlights at night. Unfortunately I have never been able to keep a collar on my barn cat, and the collars don’t make a difference for kills of mammals and reptiles/amphibians.

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With up to a 3 billion decline of numbers wouldn’t any type of fatality and its reason be contributing to the population decrease?

As mentioned before, cats are not natural predators of birds and their killing of birds can be stopped and can make a difference.

It simply comes down to who cares and who doesn’t.

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Not necessarily. Habitat destruction would likely be more damaging. Living in the suburbs, eating monocultured crops, mowing and maintaining lawns, etc. are likely to be more of an issue for population than outdoor cats.

Now, feral unaltered cats - yes, I think they are damaging, and the study above suggests the same (“Un-owned cats, as opposed to owned pets, cause the majority of this mortality”) because they reproduce so quickly and have to find their own food sources in addition to killing for “fun.” So finding ways to alter feral cat colonies would be a worthy endeavor for bird lovers.

I am not arguing that cats don’t kill animals, including birds (although mine don’t really seem interested in birds), but focusing only on outdoor cats is probably not seeing the forest for the trees. Again - as a horse owner - it’s pretty hard to shame anyone else’s animal keeping practices and keep 1000lb animals as “pets.”

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No one is focusing only on cats. Or claiming they are the only impact to, and cause in, the decline of bird and other animals species, but this thread is about cats specifically. However, some of those impacts are easier for individuals to have control over than others. Keeping pet cats indoors is one of the easier things people can do to reduce impacts to native wild species. Not just birds, but other mammals, reptiles, amphibians, and other native wild predators that rely on them to survive as well. Although one could argue that free roaming cats actually provide a food source for wild predators which is possibly somewhat of a positive trade off for the competition from free roaming cats.

I still find it just so weird that so many people can be so concerned with climate change, endangered species protection, green vs non green energy, protection of wilderness, monuments, meat consumption, and then not blink an eye and completely disregard the impact from outdoor cats. Ah, who cares, there are other things that kill animals so why bother keeping my cat indoors. It is just a “bird lover” problem.

Managing feral cat colonies in any way other than TNR is met with huge resistance. I would love to see TNR phased out and Trap, Indoor Home, or Euthanize replace it. If feral cats cannot be put into an indoor home, then they should be euthanized rather then released. If that method was put in place everywhere, the population of feral cats would be reduced dramatically. It would be better for the environment and the cats. I would love to see more support for such from “cat lovers” and not just brush it off as a “bird lover” problem. I would think those that cared about cats welfare would not want them running feral at the risk of all kinds of horrible deaths.

By that logic, I should also roll coal in my diesel truck and spray everything with herbicides and insecticides. After all, if I am already hurting the environment what is a little more damage. Look, I love cats, I have had and will have many, these days they are indoor only. Having horses has a negative impact on the environment, so does having cats, or lawns, or cars.
Are outdoor cats the only reason for bird mortality? No. Are they a proven contributor to bird mortality, especially of some of the more vulnerable ground/low shrub nesting types? Yes. Maybe your saintly cats aren’t. Most cats are.
I can’t do anything about some of the bigger aspects of bird mortality any more than I can do anything about some of the bigger aspects of climate change. But, I can do the little things: keep the cat inside, manage my horse’s manure to avoid run off, keep the farm equipment running efficiently and using as little gas as is reasonable, and so on, buy hay from farmers who do the same. Obviously, that is my choice to make.

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I don’t really like cats. I had two indoor/outdoor cats dropped off at my farm because other people didn’t want them. They are not good indoor cats; they’re not great barn cats either (which would be my preference) because they want to come inside to sleep [and they don’t like each other, so that’s not helpful]. So, I let them go out. I don’t support keeping or feeding feral cats, even though a lot of barn owners don’t mind kittens all the time. I also don’t have a bird feeder, because I think that is unfair to the bird population if you have cats.

I certainly think there are worse things people can do than allow their cats to be outside. But, yes, as you say - we can’t change everything.

Agree.

That is incorrect. There are many clear demonstrations of population decline, modeling predation effect of outdoor cats as a model parameter. This allows the calculation of the magnitude & direction of impact attributable to the cat-induced mortality. This is a standard & very basic approach we use to model ANY type of impact on a population (wild or domestic) with the specific goal of answering exactly the question you pose.

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