baloubet du rouet son approved by Holstein - question

[AlterEgoME]

In an earlier thread, which seems to have disappeared while I was in the barn, there was discussion of this stallion.

I am curious, given that all previous BduR foals were determined unacceptable for breeding by Holstein, is the registry concerned about how recessive genes in this approved stallion might be displayed in his offspring? I find genetics very interesting and am not looking to dredge up the old thread or get into a train wreck. I am interested in understanding how the registry thinks about the fact that the stallion is clearly in possession of genes that have consistently failed to produce the correct type. I hate to use the word, fluke. Is this son a “fluke”? I have no knowledge of the stallion. I don’t even know his name and couldn’t get it to come up on google with the limited information in my brain after the disappearance of the original thread.

Also, the previous thread mentioned a stallion that was noted to have “perfect jumping technique behind”. Curious as to the name of the stallion and if there is a link to any jumping video.

[RyTimMick]

Here is the link to him free jumping.

http://www.holsteiner-verband.de/cms/front_content.php?client=1&lang=2&idcat=272&idart=4578&getInfoBox=yes&pageno=

My opinion off your question is that it is possible. That is why he will get a maximum of only 80 mares his first season. They will do this first to make sure he doesn’t. It is kind of like probation.

The stallion they were referring to that had “perfect jumping” technique was Diarado. He is here.

http://www.holsteiner-verband.de/cms/front_content.php?client=1&lang=2&idcat=32&idart=1081&getInfoBox=yes&pageno=3

Tim

edited to say I was confusing threads because it was deleted. Sorry for confusion. I thought you were asking about both stallions.

[AlterEgoME]

Thanks, Tim.

LOL! I had actually passed along the video of Barracuda to a friend. Didn’t realize he was the first BduR approved by Holstein.

As to Diarado. Lovely. Could some one please pick apart the technique for me. I know “better than average” from average, but I doubt I could articulate it to someone else. That being said, perfect versus better than average?

Again, trying to learn.

[Dan]

What I notice in the video is that it looks like the stallion has very good temperment. The Contender cross may have helped. Maybe they are expecting better rideability from this one.

Dan

[Bayhawk]

The “perfect hind leg technique” was applied to Barracuda.

One of the reasons he is the first son of BDR is not only due to temperment concerns but correctness. BDR is not correct.

BDR was entered into the “breeding experiment” and this is targeted breeding to see if they can make an outside stallion work. This is totally different from the book of 80 maximum mares that new young stallions get.

[EquusMagnificus]

@Bayhawk;6018195

The “perfect hind leg technique” was applied to Barracuda.

Phew! Otherwise I thought I was seeing things wrong as I tought Baracuda was better than Diarado in that department… Glad to know I got that answer right.

[AlterEgoME]

[QUOTE=EquusMagnificus;6018253]
Phew! Otherwise I thought I was seeing things wrong as I tought Baracuda was better than Diarado in that department… Glad to know I got that answer right. [/QUOTE]

me too

[andy.smaga]

I prefer the hind legs of Diarado over the fence than that of Barracuda (only seen Barracuda on the posted video)

I think that the Holsteiner Verband is going too far when requesting “correctness”, IMHO.
Because nobody knows what is the best conformation for a top Show Jumper.
The majority of the Show Jumpers “Stars” are not perfectly “correct” but they shine in the ring.
I agree that the Holsteiner breeders are successful and that is due to them sticking to their rules, but they need to be careful not going too far.

[grayarabpony]

Rather than just labelling Baloubet du Rouet as “incorrect”, which IMHO is both inaccurate and insulting, it would be more correct to say that BdR has crossed more successfully with other type mares than Holstein mares up until now. He has sired offspring approved as stallions in other registries (http://www.horsetelex.com/progeny.php?horseid=2859), as well as several successful GP jumpers.

This article may provide some insight (scroll down to bottom):
http://www.horsemagazine.com/thm/great-stallions/?gs=1068

Check out andy smaga’s comments on this thread as well: http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-276033.html

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=grayarabpony;6019069]
Rather than just labelling Baloubet du Rouet as “incorrect”, which IMHO is both inaccurate and insulting, it would be more correct to say that BdR has crossed more successfully with other type mares than Holstein mares up until now. He has sired offspring approved as stallions in other registries (http://www.horsetelex.com/progeny.php?horseid=2859), as well as several successful GP jumpers.

This article may provide some insight (scroll down to bottom):
http://www.horsemagazine.com/thm/great-stallions/?gs=1068

Check out andy smaga’s comments on this thread as well: http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-276033.html[/QUOTE]

Once again , you are repeating the exact words someone used earlier. You have no opinion on the subject because you have never seen BDR. If you had , you would see that YOU are inaccurate. He is full of mistakes from feet to ears , from nose to tail.

What’s insulting is the fact that the MOD’s continue to let you post here. You never have anything positive or constructive to offer. You do nothing but argue with everyone and everything.

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=andy.smaga;6018818]
I prefer the hind legs of Diarado over the fence than that of Barracuda (only seen Barracuda on the posted video)

I think that the Holsteiner Verband is going too far when requesting “correctness”, IMHO.
Because nobody knows what is the best conformation for a top Show Jumper.
The majority of the Show Jumpers “Stars” are not perfectly “correct” but they shine in the ring.
I agree that the Holsteiner breeders are successful and that is due to them sticking to their rules, but they need to be careful not going too far.[/QUOTE]

“nobody knows what is the best conformation for a jumper”. Andy , this is true but Holstein knows what is the best conformation for THEIR breed to perform.

“Showjumper stars” are absolute sporthorses but may not necessarily fit into a particular breeding model.

There are far more important concerns to Holsteiner breeding than just putting a horses at the top sport. They must take care of their breed. When they don’t , you wind up with the Jockey Club and QH type scenarios with no stallion approvals , no breeding stock inspections period. This would be disaster for Holstein if you had breeders breeding willy-nilly without rules. If you turned stallions like Baloubet du Rouet loose on the Holstein mare population without rules they would no doubt destroy the breed.

I prefer the hind end technique of Barracuda over Diarado at the same age. Could be that I had a different perspective as I was on the front row with him in the chute 5 feet from me and that gives a much clearer picture than a video.

Another thing the video won’t tell you is the sound…or lack there of when he is coming to and thru the chute. Very light on his feet and very athletic. I like him.

[imajacres]

OK I am ready for a killing:-)

What about Bratt Z here in Canada? he is BdR-Capitol.

http://www.angelfire.com/ca6/MatchmakerEquine/Brattz.html

He lives down the road from me.

What would have made him not an option for Holstein- he didnt get presented before importation.

I have my own ideas but I would like to hear from experts.

OMG I am already ducking my head, lol

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=imajacres;6019255]
OK I am ready for a killing:-)

What about Bratt Z here in Canada? he is BdR-Capitol.

http://www.angelfire.com/ca6/MatchmakerEquine/Brattz.html

He lives down the road from me.

What would have made him not an option for Holstein- he didnt get presented before importation.

I have my own ideas but I would like to hear from experts.

OMG I am already ducking my head, lol[/QUOTE]

Why would you get killed or have to duck your head ? This is the kind of dialogue that is needed when breeding horses.

You need to decide if he is right for your mares. I don’t see anything in his bonits or jumping scores that would warrant anything negative to be said by me as I don’t know alot about him. He had average scores in his type and conformation but he was obviously good enough to get approved by the AHHA.

The only thing I will say is that the quote on his website is ludicrous…“Bratt Z is a must for all breeding programs”. We all know this is not true regarding ANY stallion.

Go see him. Look at his offspring. Watch him in the showring. Discern if he is right for YOUR mares or not.

[SueL]

Baloubet is an ungainly individual with prodigious ability. I can see why Holstein would like to use his genetics. I also understand their reservations. Personally, I think they have strong enough mares to negate the negatives and complement the positives.

I think submitting Barracuda (great name :-)) to the program is a good idea. If you do not think Holstein experiments in breeding, you are very unaware of the direction of the registry. Their main thing (and a great thing) is in the marelines. They seem to noodle around with a lot on the sire side.

And breeding for type hardly is limited to pretty heads. And it is a good thing.

Sue, who has a Galoubet grandson with great rideability and is also a good-looking horse

[equestrianism]

[QUOTE=Bayhawk;6018195]
The “perfect hind leg technique” was applied to Barracuda.

One of the reasons he is the first son of BDR is not only due to temperment concerns but correctness. BDR is not correct.

BDR was entered into the “breeding experiment” and this is targeted breeding to see if they can make an outside stallion work. This is totally different from the book of 80 maximum mares that new young stallions get.[/QUOTE]Lets see if I got this right - Bdr would be a shortening for Baloubet du Rouet one of the greatest show jumpers in the history of time and also number two of the WFBSH stallion ranking of 2011! And you put him in the same sentence as “breeding experiment” and not correct!?

Maybe you can define a correct horse in the international world of showjumping of today cause according to old school grading of conformation of the horse there are few. P

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=equestrianism;6019675]
Lets see if I got this right - Bdr would be a shortening for Baloubet du Rouet one of the greatest show jumpers in the history of time and also number two of the WFBSH stallion ranking of 2011! And you put him in the same sentence as “breeding experiment” and not correct!?

Maybe you can define a correct horse in the international world of showjumping of today cause according to old school grading of conformation of the horse there are few. P[/QUOTE]

Yes , Baloubet du Rouet was put into the breeding experiment in Holstein to see if he would match up to the holstein mare base , as was For Pleasure , Diamant , Ephebe for ever , Quick Star , Hermes d’ Authieux etc. etc. Maybe you should pick up a Holstein stallion roster and there you would see these sires listed as being “in the breeding experiment” . Maybe you should have peered in his stall and evaluated his type and conformation just like the breeders of Holstein did and you would clearly see that this stallion is anything but “correct” ? Maybe if you did this you wouldn’t need to produce 500 of them to get a few top ones ? Maybe you would only have to produce 100 of them to get a few top ones ?

He is a phenomenal jumper and has proven himself as an inheritor. Doesn’t mean he is correct , nor does it mean that he should be used willy-nilly based off of these two facts. Why is it so hard for most of you to understand that maintaining a breed is very different than just trying to create a top sporthorse ? If it weren’t for Holstein maintaining it’s type all these years , you wouldn’t have a KWPN !!! The KWPN is not a breed. You are in fact a sporthorse registry. This is why you are becoming a “European warmblood”. You can’t distinguish yourself from other studbooks anymore.
What works for you won’t necessarily work for Holstein.

KWPN has their own way of doing things. Their own way has almost made their original Dutch stamm’s extinct and their own way requires them to breed twice as many horses as the other studbooks to achieve nearly the same results.

[imajacres]

[QUOTE=Bayhawk;6019338]
Why would you get killed or have to duck your head ? This is the kind of dialogue that is needed when breeding horses.

You need to decide if he is right for your mares. I don’t see anything in his bonits or jumping scores that would warrant anything negative to be said by me as I don’t know alot about him. He had average scores in his type and conformation but he was obviously good enough to get approved by the AHHA.

The only thing I will say is that the quote on his website is ludicrous…“Bratt Z is a must for all breeding programs”. We all know this is not true regarding ANY stallion.

Go see him. Look at his offspring. Watch him in the showring. Discern if he is right for YOUR mares or not.[/QUOTE]

Bayhawk, I am joking about the getting killed part. No worries I am of German/Dutch descent, and am fine with facts.
I was asking more because I really understand that breeding for a sport horse is not like breeding for a stallion, and that suits me fine, I dont want to make a stallion; not my game.

And yes that statement is a bit over the top the “must for all programs” part, but hey, I write what the SO wants me to write:-)

He is throwing all kinds of babies, but has been bred to all kinds of mares too.
Kind of understandable.

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=imajacres;6019778]
Bayhawk, I am joking about the getting killed part. No worries I am of German/Dutch descent, and am fine with facts.
I was asking more because I really understand that breeding for a sport horse is not like breeding for a stallion, and that suits me fine, I dont want to make a stallion; not my game.

And yes that statement is a bit over the top the “must for all programs” part, but hey, I write what the SO wants me to write:-)

He is throwing all kinds of babies, but has been bred to all kinds of mares too.
Kind of understandable.[/QUOTE]

see , there you go. If you’re just trying to create good sporthorses…there are many roads that lead to the show ring. Trying to create breeding horses can be something entirely different but the goal is to get both in the same horse…i.e. Casall .

It doesn’t surprise me Bratt Z is making all kinds of babies with different mares. He is in fact a half bred stallion and this makes sense. The best way to find out about his ability to inherit would be to breed the same breed of mares to him generationally. It would be interesting to see him in the second and 3rd generations.

[equestrianism]

[QUOTE=Bayhawk;6019719]
Yes , Baloubet du Rouet was put into the breeding experiment in Holstein to see if he would match up to the holstein mare base , as was For Pleasure , Diamant , Ephebe for ever , Quick Star , Hermes d’ Authieux etc. etc. Maybe you should pick up a Holstein stallion roster and there you would see these sires listed as being “in the breeding experiment” . Maybe you should have peered in his stall and evaluated his type and conformation just like the breeders of Holstein did and you would clearly see that this stallion is anything but “correct” ? Maybe if you did this you wouldn’t need to produce 500 of them to get a few top ones ? Maybe you would only have to produce 100 of them to get a few top ones ?

He is a phenomenal jumper and has proven himself as an inheritor. Doesn’t mean he is correct , nor does it mean that he should be used willy-nilly based off of these two facts. Why is it so hard for most of you to understand that maintaining a breed is very different than just trying to create a top sporthorse ? If it weren’t for Holstein maintaining it’s type all these years , you wouldn’t have a KWPN !!! The KWPN is not a breed. You are in fact a sporthorse registry. This is why you are becoming a “European warmblood”. You can’t distinguish yourself from other studbooks anymore.
What works for you won’t necessarily work for Holstein.

KWPN has their own way of doing things. Their own way has almost made their original Dutch stamm’s extinct and their own way requires them to breed twice as many horses as the other studbooks to achieve nearly the same results.[/QUOTE]I have an additional question for you - what has the KWPN to do with any of my original question I posted your way regarding your comments of Baloubet du Rouet?!!

Obviously you like many other who obviously has German breeding as your religion and can not see any wrong doing on their behalf can not stand the fact that the KWPN has succeeded in everything they’ve done lately. Even so I did not even mention them!!

Also I do wonder where Holstein would be today without the influence of i.e. the French stallion Cor de la Bryere? Without him - who were born in 1968 - there would be no Calypso I-V, Caletto I-III, Calando I-IV, Calvados I-II and Corrado I-II.

In the long run that also would mean that the al mighty and very much popular Cornet Obolensky ex. Windows van het Costersveld (which is a product of the BWP) wouldn’t exist neither as part of the international show jumping circuit nor as a breeding stallion.

Also Diarado by. Diamant de Semilly (another Selle Francais) wouldn’t exist.

The point is ALL and any modern sporthorses are a mix and match of the other. Some studbooks and registries may have stricter rules but in the end of the day they still are nothing but a mix and as a breeder you need to know how to deal with it and what to mix with what, when and how.

[skydy]

I can’t find a conformation photo of BDR anywhere on the web.One photo of him standing still, but taken at an angle that makes it impossible to see all of him. Does anyone have a link to a good conformation photo of BDR?