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baloubet du rouet son approved by Holstein - question

Sport Horse Breeding
#21

[QUOTE=equestrianism;6019989]
I have an additional question for you - what has the KWPN to do with any of my original question I posted your way regarding your comments of Baloubet du Rouet?!!

Obviously you like many other who obviously has German breeding as your religion and can not see any wrong doing on their behalf can not stand the fact that the KWPN has succeeded in everything they’ve done lately. Even so I did not even mention them!!

Also I do wonder where Holstein would be today without the influence of i.e. the French stallion Cor de la Bryere? Without him - who were born in 1968 - there would be no Calypso I-V, Caletto I-III, Calando I-IV, Calvados I-II and Corrado I-II.

In the long run that also would mean that the al mighty and very much popular Cornet Obolensky ex. Windows van het Costersveld (which is a product of the BWP) wouldn’t exist neither as part of the international show jumping circuit nor as a breeding stallion.

Also Diarado by. Diamant de Semilly (another Selle Francais) wouldn’t exist.

The point is ALL and any modern sporthorses are a mix and match of the other. Some studbooks and registries may have stricter rules but in the end of the day they still are nothing but a mix and as a breeder you need to know how to deal with it and what to mix with what, when and how.[/QUOTE]

The real point is that the difference between what you are describing above and Holstein is that Holstein would NEVER compromise its mare base. The introduction of new blood comes from the sires.

Furthermore, you mention Corde here. Yes, he was French, but without the Holstein mare base that he was put to there would be no Calypso I-V, Caletto I-III, Calando I-IV, Calvados I-II and Corrado I-II either. He was an impressive sire no doubt, but I hardly think that all of the success of his offspring in this case can be attributed entirely to him. In fact, Holstein would not have had him at all if he would have been able to work the same wonders with a different mare base. I just ran the numbers on another thread comparing the influence of the mare being put to him and there was quite a difference…

#22

Mares are always part of the equation when breeding horses. That’s no secret and not exclusive to Holstein nor any other studbook!

If you don’t do a proper selection of animals for reproduction you’ll never succeed no matter what you breed.

#23

[QUOTE=skydy;6020017]
I can’t find a conformation photo of BDR anywhere on the web.One photo of him standing still, but taken at an angle that makes it impossible to see all of him. Does anyone have a link to a good conformation photo of BDR?[/QUOTE]

I don’t know if there are any photos free online, but there is a shot of him in Judy Wardrope’s e-book Ten Conformation Myths. Not the prettiest horse just standing around, but he was poetry in motion and competed at the top until 18 years of age.

#24

Diarado and Barracuda are both lovely and they both have good technique in back, but they are different. Diarado has an athletic, neat and tidy “clear tight and kick” and for doing courses he might end up a more consistent performer (or not). But Barracuda frickin EXUDES athleticism - if you hit the wrong spots with a bad turn and it was all falling apart, that’s what you’d want under you. The question on a performance front is whether he overdoes too much to settle down to consistent courses, but good lord, he looks like he could get his hocks up over his tail tiein if he made the effort. It’s not something you see often.

The Barracuda Experiment (sounds like the title to a Ludlum novel) will be interesting. Fingers crossed for it to be successful.

#25

I think people forget that you can’t see the strength of soft tissues. Conformation helps lessen the stresses put through the soft tissues but if they are weak they will still fail even with perfect conformation. The only way to tell if a horse has tendons and ligaments that will stand up to the job is to look at the horse’s competition record.

And this is where BdR shines. Because he is so proven in competition his conformation is of secondary importance. His soft tissues are top quality. He worked incredibly hard and stayed sound. And he passes on his talent. No wonder every studbook, even Holstein, wants his blood in their studbook.

#26

[QUOTE=mbp;6020117]
Diarado and Barracuda are both lovely and they both have good technique in back, but they are different. Diarado has an athletic, neat and tidy “clear tight and kick” and for doing courses he might end up a more consistent performer (or not). But Barracuda frickin EXUDES athleticism - if you hit the wrong spots with a bad turn and it was all falling apart, that’s what you’d want under you. The question on a performance front is whether he overdoes too much to settle down to consistent courses, but good lord, he looks like he could get his hocks up over his tail tiein if he made the effort. It’s not something you see often.

The Barracuda Experiment (sounds like the title to a Ludlum novel) will be interesting. Fingers crossed for it to be successful.[/QUOTE]

Thanks. I would appreciate any additional analysis on their jumps. Compare and contrast is good.

#27

Thanks Grayarabpony! I took a look at the site that has the e-book. Looks like a great book, but I can’t justify spending the $33.00 at this time.Oh well…

#28

I am a TB (racing) breeder, not a WB breeder. To sell a yearling for good money, the horse must be very correct AND have good bloodlines. But, time and again, these multi milion $$ horses are failures at the track; they are pretty and correct, but are they athletic?

I think that any one who puts correctness at such a premium that athleticism and ability are discounted entirely are missing the point. We are not breeding for a beauty pagent. We are breeding athletes – THAT is the end all and be all of the TB as a breed.

Before he ran, no one wanted SUnday Silence because he was a conformational mess. His breeder had to keep him. After winning millions of $$, no farm wanted to stand him because he was crooked and ugly, so off to Japan he went.

He is the #1 stallion over there and has single handedly revived their breeding business. And his foals look just fine, thank you.

From what I am reading here, the Holstein registy feels the same way about Baloubet? I looked at a link and out of 300+ foals, he has 30 some approved sons. So his offspring cannot all be bad. It seems that other registries have approved him and he bred and got his sons registered. It looks like the Holstein registery is the poorer for its stance; the rest of the WB world has been happy to embrace him and his talent.

So sad for the Holsteiners.

#29

[QUOTE=Lord Helpus;6020279]
I am a TB (racing) breeder, not a WB breeder. To sell a yearling for good money, the horse must be very correct AND have good bloodlines. But, time and again, these multi milion $$ horses are failures at the track; they are pretty and correct, but are they athletic?

I think that any one who puts correctness at such a premium that athleticism and ability are discounted entirely are missing the point. We are not breeding for a beauty pagent. We are breeding athletes – THAT is the end all and be all of the TB as a breed.

Before he ran, no one wanted SUnday Silence because he was a conformational mess. His breeder had to keep him. After winning millions of $$, no farm wanted to stand him because he was crooked and ugly, so off to Japan he went.

He is the #1 stallion over there and has single handedly revived their breeding business. And his foals look just fine, thank you.

From what I am reading here, the Holstein registy feels the same way about Baloubet? I looked at a link and out of 300+ foals, he has 30 some approved sons. So his offspring cannot all be bad. It seems that other registries have approved him and he bred and got his sons registered. It looks like the Holstein registery is the poorer for its stance; the rest of the WB world has been happy to embrace him and his talent.

So sad for the Holsteiners.[/QUOTE]

I think you are misunderstanding about the feelings of the Verband toward BdR. The verband has included BdR in their breeding experiment for many years. If they did not think he had potential in breeding at all they never would have done this. His offspring, out of Holsteiner mares, are Holsteiners and registered. What is being said is that because of his performance, the registry is interested in seeing what he can bring to the table using the Holsteiner mare base, however because of his conformational issues they are doing this cautiously. Out of all of the years he has been a part of this experiment he has had only one son who has been approved by Holstein, and this son is phenomenal. Everyone in Holstein concurs with this and he received high marks at his licensing. I would say that Holstein has embraced the potential of BdR but that he has not been as compatible with the mare base in Holstein as some of his proponents may have wished.

#30

Here is a link to under saddle and conformation shots of Baloubet
http://www.studforlife.com/photochevaux.php?id=2853&nom=Baloubet%20du%20Rouet

#31

[QUOTE=dani0303;6020374]
Here is a link to under saddle and conformation shots of Baloubet
http://www.studforlife.com/photochevaux.php?id=2853&nom=Baloubet%20du%20Rouet[/QUOTE]

Whoa. I can certainly see why Holstein would want to be cautious about using him, even with their very strong-typed Holsteiner mares.:eek:

#32

Great link, thanks!

I also prefer Barracuda to Diarado based on the short free jumping clip. Barracuda is looser through his body and opens up more behind, IMHO.

Very interesting points made here. I look forward to seeing how Barracuda develops and produces. I already love the name and the jump. :slight_smile:

#33

There are some fundamental differences between The Holsteiner Verband and The KWPN. First and foremost, it is essentially a closed book of mares, unlike KWPN which allows for outside mares to be approved and registered. 2nd, Holland derives the majority of their success from outside stallions, Holstein success derives primarily from Holsteiner stallions. 6 of the top Holsteiner sport horses were by Holsteiner stallions. Only 3 of the top 6 Dutch horses were by Dutch Stallions.

You speak of Cor de la Bryere back 1968. Since then, very few outside stallions have had success in Holstein. A few TB’s and QDR, and thats about it. This past few years they have opened their book just a little more, but they will approve few, and use even fewer. 10 years from now we will look back and see a handful of halfbred stallions that had any impact at all. This is no different then Cor de la Bryere. You can count the number of direct stallion offspring on two hands that had an impact. From your own list the ones that matter are only Calypso I/II, Caletto I/II, Calando I, Calvados I/II, and Corrado I. Thats 8 stallion sons from probably one of the best outside stallions Holstein has ever seen. From Ladykiller xx we pretty much see Lord and Landgraf. If you look you will see that only a handful of stallion sons were used with success. Holstein survives on its mares, and maintaining the breed type. They didn’t get there by following the Dutch model, in fact just the opposite. This is why they can breed nearly 1/3 the number of mares and produce nearly the same # of top competitors. And with the exception of Nimmerdor who is half Holsteiner, they have done it completely without Dutch bred Stallions. KWPN clearly can not say the same.

So no, they are not nearly the same, they are in fact very different.

Tim

#34

Well, about everything great I have ever known Holstein goes back to Corde or Ladykiller. Or both. Perhaps the key is not just the mare base, but a combination of the mare base used in a few special outside stallions. That seems to me why “experimenting” will continue to be important to Holstein–to move forward you need to look for the next Cor de la Bryere to complement the mares and keep te project moving forward.

Baracuda is lovely. Maybe he’s the one, maybe not.

#35

You know…

BDR…he IS UGLY just standing around, I am surprised. That is the only pictures I have ever seen of him with all 4 feet on the ground. He is pretty pitiful, he looks more like a llama than a llama does!! Wow…

#36

I hate to say I told you so…

Who were those that argued about him being correct ?

According to Andre Nepper , nowhere in Europe will you find a BDR son standing in a better type than Barracuda. This is a shining example of the very patient and selective breeding approach that has made the Holsteiner horse what it is.

One should be very careful when using BDR. When he doesn’t transmit that incredible jumping talent , whatcha gonna do with it then ? It will be very difficult to market and sell.

There is far more to breeding horses than just breeding to one that had a tremendous show career.

I hope BDR can endure a stallion line for Holstein. I just hope it doesn’t take as long to produce another son this nice.

#37

[QUOTE=Lord Helpus;6020279]
I am a TB (racing) breeder, not a WB breeder. To sell a yearling for good money, the horse must be very correct AND have good bloodlines. But, time and again, these multi milion $$ horses are failures at the track; they are pretty and correct, but are they athletic?

I think that any one who puts correctness at such a premium that athleticism and ability are discounted entirely are missing the point. We are not breeding for a beauty pagent. We are breeding athletes – THAT is the end all and be all of the TB as a breed.

Before he ran, no one wanted SUnday Silence because he was a conformational mess. His breeder had to keep him. After winning millions of $$, no farm wanted to stand him because he was crooked and ugly, so off to Japan he went.

He is the #1 stallion over there and has single handedly revived their breeding business. And his foals look just fine, thank you.

From what I am reading here, the Holstein registy feels the same way about Baloubet? I looked at a link and out of 300+ foals, he has 30 some approved sons. So his offspring cannot all be bad. It seems that other registries have approved him and he bred and got his sons registered. It looks like the Holstein registery is the poorer for its stance; the rest of the WB world has been happy to embrace him and his talent.

So sad for the Holsteiners.[/QUOTE]

“So sad for the Holsteiners” ? I’m sorry but this made me spit my toddy all over my computer. Why are you sad ? Are you sad that we just produced the most correct son of Baloubet in all of Europe earning a premium designation with a 10 on jump ? Are you sad that we have such a strict selection process that we did this with the very first son that was presented for approval ?

Who said that “correctness discounted athleticism and ability” ? Who said anything about breeding for beauty pageants ? Did Barracuda’s correctness keep him from being an unbelievable athlete with perfect hind leg technique and achieving the top score of 10. Did the fact that he was a premium stallion keep him from garnering a 10 for his jumping ?

“It looks like the Holstein registry is poorer for it’s stance” . They produced the best young son of Baloubet in all of Europe , with a premium physique and a 10 on jump. This is not a poor stance ,this is brilliant. They now have a breeding horse.

Your arguement makes absolutely no sense considering the results.

#38

I have seen one filly over here by BDR out of an Irish mare and she was gorgeous. I remember thinking, “how did that happen?” She won the 3yo loose jumping at the RDS back in 2003. Part of which is judged on type and conformation. BDR is a nightmare to look at but his jumping talent is undeniable and he did stay sound. But you just have to be careful with your mares. Just like the Holsteiner Verband is doing. They do not deny he was a super jumper, but they want that jump with the whole package.

Honestly I don’t understand the kerfluffle. The Holstiener book does things the way they want and it works. Other studbooks do things a different way which works for them. The main focus of Holsteiner is jumping. There are some dressage breeders too but very small, I’m assuming, compared to the jumping. When you look at other books say the Irish book you breed for jumpers, eventers, riding horses, show horses, field hunters, and a little dressage. Not surprising then it’s a book all over the place. If you had 30k to spend on buying youngstock, future mares, to breed from for jumpers for the future, what would you do? Buy one super filly foal from Holsteiner or buy 10-20 somewhere else and hope you get lucky? Yup all breeding is a crapshoot. For a start I’m saving money with the one and should actually make money.

But at the end of the day Barracuda says it all. With the right mare he can work. So I don’t understand the arguing. People seem to think BDR can work on anything because he was a top jumper.

As far as the TB sales go, lot more going on than just correct babies with pedigrees. Incorrect with a pedigree makes money too. And big sales results aren’t always big sales results but it looks good on paper. I miss the days people actually bred racehorses instead of sales horses.

Terri

#39

[QUOTE=paintjumper;6020478]
BDR…he IS UGLY just standing around, I am surprised. That is the only pictures I have ever seen of him with all 4 feet on the ground. He is pretty pitiful, he looks more like a llama than a llama does!! Wow…[/QUOTE]

You think that horse is ugly with a capital U? I mean, really?

Take a good look because that’s what one of the best showjumpers of all time looks like. :winkgrin:

#40

[QUOTE=stolensilver;6020151]
I think people forget that you can’t see the strength of soft tissues. Conformation helps lessen the stresses put through the soft tissues but if they are weak they will still fail even with perfect conformation. The only way to tell if a horse has tendons and ligaments that will stand up to the job is to look at the horse’s competition record.

And this is where BdR shines. Because he is so proven in competition his conformation is of secondary importance. His soft tissues are top quality. He worked incredibly hard and stayed sound. And he passes on his talent. No wonder every studbook, even Holstein, wants his blood in their studbook.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Lord Helpus;6020279]I am a TB (racing) breeder, not a WB breeder. To sell a yearling for good money, the horse must be very correct AND have good bloodlines. But, time and again, these multi milion $$ horses are failures at the track; they are pretty and correct, but are they athletic?

I think that any one who puts correctness at such a premium that athleticism and ability are discounted entirely are missing the point. We are not breeding for a beauty pagent. We are breeding athletes – THAT is the end all and be all of the TB as a breed.

Before he ran, no one wanted SUnday Silence because he was a conformational mess. His breeder had to keep him. After winning millions of $$, no farm wanted to stand him because he was crooked and ugly, so off to Japan he went.

He is the #1 stallion over there and has single handedly revived their breeding business. And his foals look just fine, thank you.

From what I am reading here, the Holstein registy feels the same way about Baloubet? I looked at a link and out of 300+ foals, he has 30 some approved sons. So his offspring cannot all be bad. It seems that other registries have approved him and he bred and got his sons registered. It looks like the Holstein registery is the poorer for its stance; the rest of the WB world has been happy to embrace him and his talent.

So sad for the Holsteiners.[/QUOTE]

:slight_smile: LOVE these posts.

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