GAP…
I didn’t say he could not jump, I said he is UGLY, because he IS. I will be the first to admit that those pictures surprised me because all of the other pictures I have seen are of him over a fence where he looks fine…but on the ground, yep, he’s UGLY.
That’s just your opinion. :winkgrin: He is holding his head very high but to me on the ground he’s not ugly at all. Could his head and neck be prettier? Sure. But overall I think he’s a beautiful horse.
We’ll have to agree to disagree on this one.
Yes, I hardly see the “OMG he’s UGLY”. His head is held high - which is very normal for the way they pose stallions for pictures in other countries. He doesn’t have the prettiest head or neck but hardly the worst I’ve seen. Methinks the shock and horror is a wee bit much 
That being said, of course one would want him to cross well with a mare before using him & be cautious about using him willy-nilly on all types of mares. That is breeding 101, regardless of registry no? Caution makes sense and it looks like he has produced at least one phenomenal offspring for this registry and many, many fantastic offspring for other registries.
Any thoughts on Bella Baloubet? He has a tremedous spring but seems unorthodox in his jump (does not seem to use his back?) I thought BDR was unorthodox in how he used his front end but had plenty of bascule and spring so it is not what i would expect from the cross. (But Bella B is cettainly a handsome boy.)
We know that a stallion will not produce the same level of quality regardless of the mare base he is bred to.
It’s a fact that the Holsteiner mares are probably not the best fit for Baloubet du Rouet, because if you look at the performance of his offspring then it’s clear that his ranking as second producer in the world is not due to horses out of Holsteiner mares.
Baloubet is not the most gorgeous horse when standing, but if you look at him moving, then athleticism, harmony, coordination are at an outstanding level, this is the main reason all studbooks want to incorporate some of his genes in their own gene pool. Breeders are not aiming at producing a photographic beauty but instead producing a sport horse that moves, because sport is not about standing still.
I’m glad that Barracuda is so highly appreciated in Holstein, but the real proof of his quality will be when he will perform at the GP level, I’m not a believer in the stallion approval systems (more of a marketing and show system as opposed at sport selection)
Baloubet will improve on the right mares and will produce crap with the wrong ones, as any other stallion… But I’m a great fan of Baloubet and his Sire.
[QUOTE=grayarabpony;6021040]
You think that horse is ugly with a capital U? I mean, really?
Take a good look because that’s what one of the best showjumpers of all time looks like. :winkgrin:[/QUOTE]
“Best showjumper” doesn’t mean he’s a conformation model.
Conformation model doesn’t mean best showjumper.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. A horse CAN be ugly/fugly/Ugly/UGLY/whatever you want to call it, and still jump the moon.
I am SURE BdR isn’t the worst looking horse to do well at a high level
[QUOTE=dani0303;6020374]
Here is a link to under saddle and conformation shots of Baloubet
http://www.studforlife.com/photochevaux.php?id=2853&nom=Baloubet%20du%20Rouet[/QUOTE]
Thanks! I can see why they would have to be careful which mares he was used with, however I don’t think he’s “ugly”. Not put together as well he should be , but not “ugly”.
BDR is perfect, IMO.
I’ll have to start another thread on this, but conformation is not about beauty or standing pretty in a book. It’s about function and this horse was at the very top of the game. He functionned perfectly.
[QUOTE=JB;6021257]
“Best showjumper” doesn’t mean he’s a conformation model.
Conformation model doesn’t mean best showjumper.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. A horse CAN be ugly/fugly/Ugly/UGLY/whatever you want to call it, and still jump the moon.
I am SURE BdR isn’t the worst looking horse to do well at a high level ;)[/QUOTE]
Horses like BdR means that people may need to reform their “conformation model”. Or admit that there’s more than one!
In my opinion, I just don’t see ugly when I look at him, that’s all I’m saying. Yes, he’s doing a wonderful impersonation of a giraffe, but that doesn’t say ugly to me. When I look at him I see a bright shiny well-muscled athlete and to me that is beautiful.
I think he looks angular and athletic vs the uphill musclebound type… But ugly? Not IMO
There are horses with type AND jump so it would make sense (since there are so many choices) to try and get the full package. If it were an all or nothing choice then I’d say pick the athlete over the confo… But you can have it all in the world we live in so 
However, you see them breeding these more angular horses with successful careers BACK into the type time and time again so that shows they have their place in the lines as well :yes:
So I have a rather ignorant question for the folks who seem to be hip to the jive with the verband happenings…
Was Balou du Rouet ever presented to the verband? What didn’t they like about him? And how do you think he compares with Barracuda?
Just to clarify something kind of OT - Diarado is a lovely stallion with great technique - by no means chopped liver! I’d love to have a Diarado offspring and I’m not sure he wouldn’t make the better “1st to last” jump horse of the two. If you want to gamble on infusing athleticism for your mare, my chips would be on Barracuda. but Diarado is a really compelling stallion in his own right as well.
EquusM - I hope you start that thread.
I’m going to play devils advocate a bit for BayHawk (which he can shoot me for if I am not representing his point accurately) Let’s say you are breeding for the best agility dog. Border Collies have excelled and so you breed them, but you aren’t wedded to AKC and will introduce outside blood if you think it will help you produce the best agility dog. Along comes a flat out outrageously great Gordon Setter. Even though you are breeding for “the best” agility dog, and even though he is better than the current top Border Collies competing, at what point does it make sense to introduce the Gordon to your breeding program? You have to really think through what makes them outrageously great and how that is likely to work with your Border Collie base. If the Setter is great because he utilizes his long legs in a particular manner, how likely is that trait to imprint on your breeding base? In particular, if he is really great because he is non-standard for Gordons, maybe a different gait style, a different temperment and demeanor, etc how likely are those to carry forward. And if they don’t - then what do you have?
Obviously, it’s different and more flexible with sport horse breeding. The Holsteiner mare base, while bred to a fair degree of consistency, is not as consistent as a fully separate dog breed, like a border collie. And it is a base that has consistently used infusions of certain kinds of outside blood. While I disagree with BH on a fair number of things, the clear message I’ve always gotten from his comments (most of which I think are really informative even when we disagree) is that he is breeding not just for the freak of nature best jumping horse, but for a reproducible type of animal that is likely to give you, on a fairly consistent basis, a very good jumper who might be great, with the choices of “outside” stallions focused on what that stallion can add to the greatness, without taking away the reproducible, consistency elements.
I don’t think that’s the same as BH saying he thinks some stallions who are great jumpers are not great jumpers when he says he doesn’t think they would be a good stallion for the Holstein mare base.
fwiw
^Well said.
Personally, I think BdR is UGLY. I am also a believer in handsome is as handsome does and if the pony is FUGLY and it babysits my daughter then it is a beauty in my eye, but I am not going to breed for it.
As I have mentioned, my dad bred working dogs for the MP’s and police force and home and business protection. Those dogs did their job and then they tolerated anything the kids in the family threw at them. I ran over their toes with my baby bouncer, rolled off the couch on their backs and did all the stupid things kids do. And in the morning, they stood alert and attacked a threat on command. SELECTIVE breeding - whatever you are selecting for - is the important part. You have to know what you have in each parent and something about the dominant and recessive traits they have. You don’t breed for flukes and you are very careful when you breed to flukes.
[QUOTE=mbp;6021875]
Just to clarify something kind of OT - Diarado is a lovely stallion with great technique - by no means chopped liver! I’d love to have a Diarado offspring and I’m not sure he wouldn’t make the better “1st to last” jump horse of the two. If you want to gamble on infusing athleticism for your mare, my chips would be on Barracuda. but Diarado is a really compelling stallion in his own right as well.
EquusM - I hope you start that thread.
I’m going to play devils advocate a bit for BayHawk (which he can shoot me for if I am not representing his point accurately) Let’s say you are breeding for the best agility dog. Border Collies have excelled and so you breed them, but you aren’t wedded to AKC and will introduce outside blood if you think it will help you produce the best agility dog. Along comes a flat out outrageously great Gordon Setter. Even though you are breeding for “the best” agility dog, and even though he is better than the current top Border Collies competing, at what point does it make sense to introduce the Gordon to your breeding program? You have to really think through what makes them outrageously great and how that is likely to work with your Border Collie base. If the Setter is great because he utilizes his long legs in a particular manner, how likely is that trait to imprint on your breeding base? In particular, if he is really great because he is non-standard for Gordons, maybe a different gait style, a different temperment and demeanor, etc how likely are those to carry forward. And if they don’t - then what do you have?
Obviously, it’s different and more flexible with sport horse breeding. The Holsteiner mare base, while bred to a fair degree of consistency, is not as consistent as a fully separate dog breed, like a border collie. And it is a base that has consistently used infusions of certain kinds of outside blood. While I disagree with BH on a fair number of things, the clear message I’ve always gotten from his comments (most of which I think are really informative even when we disagree) is that he is breeding not just for the freak of nature best jumping horse, but for a reproducible type of animal that is likely to give you, on a fairly consistent basis, a very good jumper who might be great, with the choices of “outside” stallions focused on what that stallion can add to the greatness, without taking away the reproducible, consistency elements.
I don’t think that’s the same as BH saying he thinks some stallions who are great jumpers are not great jumpers when he says he doesn’t think they would be a good stallion for the Holstein mare base.
fwiw[/QUOTE]
This is right MBP.
Folks tend to forget that when Code la bryere was introduced he was outright boycotted by the breeders. Change comes extremely slow in Holstein. They have a clear bullseye at what they are aiming for.
This conservative breeding approach is one of the reasons they have the most condensed jumping gene in the world encased in one of the smallest mare herds in Europe. They are consistently ranked in the top 2 studbook rankings. They currently supply 40% of breeding stallions on the WBFSH top 100 list and they own 12 of the top 25 ranked mare families in the world for the production of international showjumpers including #1 and #2 .
Unbelievable production from an area not much bigger that one of our counties.
[QUOTE=Darden19;6021740]
So I have a rather ignorant question for the folks who seem to be hip to the jive with the verband happenings…
Was Balou du Rouet ever presented to the verband? What didn’t they like about him? And how do you think he compares with Barracuda?[/QUOTE]
I’m also very interested to hear what others have to say about this…
I’m fairly certain BdR wasn’t presented to the Verband but approved based on performance. I’m not sure it would have done much for him, considering his record as a performance horse.
[QUOTE=AlterEgoME;6021936]
^Well said.
Personally, I think BdR is UGLY. I am also a believer in handsome is as handsome does and if the pony is FUGLY and it babysits my daughter then it is a beauty in my eye, but I am not going to breed for it.
As I have mentioned, my dad bred working dogs for the MP’s and police force and home and business protection. Those dogs did their job and then they tolerated anything the kids in the family threw at them. I ran over their toes with my baby bouncer, rolled off the couch on their backs and did all the stupid things kids do. And in the morning, they stood alert and attacked a threat on command. SELECTIVE breeding - whatever you are selecting for - is the important part. You have to know what you have in each parent and something about the dominant and recessive traits they have. You don’t breed for flukes and you are very careful when you breed to flukes.[/QUOTE]
I hope you’re not calling BdR a fluke, because if you are that just doesn’t make any sense. Not from a standpoint of where he came from or what he has produced either one.
Because it’s taken some time for Holstein to get what they want from BdR doesn’t make him a fluke. Maybe that’s not what you’re saying, but there’s more than one way to breed successful horses other than the Holsteiner method.
[QUOTE=grayarabpony;6022124]
I hope you’re not calling BdR a fluke, because if you are that just doesn’t make any sense. Not from a standpoint of where he came from or what he has produced either one.
Because it’s taken some time for Holstein to get what they want from BdR doesn’t make him a fluke. Maybe that’s not what you’re saying, but there’s more than one way to breed successful horses other than the Holsteiner method.[/QUOTE]
Using a quote from my own post to answer your question
SELECTIVE breeding - whatever you are selecting for - is the important part.
I did not say/imply BdR was a fluke. Nor did I say/imply Holstein’s way is the only way. Making inferences will get you into trouble and also start train wrecks. Breeding is something you do with a plan, not because a mare of unknown pedigree falls into your lap, or your 3’6" jumper goes lame or because some stallion is the fashion du jour. Nor do I think you can base your program on taking average animals and producing a spectacular one. Sure it happens, wouldn’t create a business plan on it. Nor would I take one spectacular animal and expect it to produce a barnful of spectacular animals. Again, it probably happens. Not where I am putting my hard earned cash.
What people breed would be their business except for all of the neglected/useless/ill tempered horses out there.
Whether you like Holstein’s program or not, you have to respect the discipline with which they execute it. They have a goal and a plan for reaching that goal. I have respect and admiration for that discipline where ever I find it.
Since your intention wasn’t to call BdR a fluke then you can disregard my post. But if it had been I was just going to point out all of the international showjumpers produced by the top and bottom of his family and by himself.
[QUOTE=Darden19;6021740]
So I have a rather ignorant question for the folks who seem to be hip to the jive with the verband happenings…
Was Balou du Rouet ever presented to the verband? What didn’t they like about him? And how do you think he compares with Barracuda?[/QUOTE]
No he has not been presented. I can’t compare him with Barracuda as I haven’t seen Balou… but Barracuda is a beautiful , modern , and very correct son of BDR , hence his premium stallion designation. He is a superb jumper and seemed to be very clear in the mind on his day. The rideability issue with Baloubet should be much better now coming from a Contender mother.
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