baloubet du rouet son approved by Holstein - question

[rodawn]

[QUOTE=NOMIOMI1;6026067]
There is no need to find out how and why

Look at the racetrack… Horses of perfect conformation winning and ones that look like ole nag jack winning… But more of the former. That doesnt mean you should rush and breed to Jack, BUT if he proved to be an EXCEPTIONAL horse he’d be worth consideration…But that is the crux of the matter, you CONSIDER Jack, but you DONT change your entire breeding program or thoughts about your herds goals:no:.[/QUOTE]

Raises the theory about Northern Dancer, doesn’t it. He was little, had terrible feet, some soundness issues, but he won some important races and many people bred their mares to him. He had some good things to offer, sure. But he also introduced his bad points to the whole lineage… and hmmm, however many generations out they got from that, dang it, some of those bad points STILL show up.

Hence what Tim, and Bayhawk and a few others (many others) have said on here. Baloubet du Rouet had an extraordinary gift for jumping, I swear the horse had wings hidden somewhere on that thar body. But conformation … yeesh. He kinda looked like a cross with a giraffe.

So point taken… people JUDICIOUSLY bred to him, including Holstein. But, even now… what… 2 or 3 generations out from him, owners of the descendants of BdR still need to look carefully and consider the future mate to their horse…because his bad points are STILL hiding in the genetic pool, as dilute as they are, the gene can pop up some 15 generations later out of the blue. It just needs the right companion gene to turn it on and poof there it is.

[andy.smaga]

@rodawn;6032249

Raises the theory about Northern Dancer, doesn’t it. He was little, had terrible feet, some soundness issues

I have no dog in this fight, just trying to question some breeding habits.

Please note that opposite from Northern Dancer, Baloubet have a perfect soundness history that allowed him to perform for a very long period at the very top of the sport.

The only thing that I’m hearing is that he doesn’t look “trendy” or look like a Girafe, and I have to agree that if you are breeding to address 95% of the market (amateurs) then forget about Baloubet.

But if you are interested in the remaining 5%, then here are listed his sons who contributed to his ranking as 2nd best producing stallion in the world. (remember his first crop is 12y/o only)

(name of offspring, SB, mare sire, Points earned in International competitions)
CHAMAN KWPN I LOVE YOU 1500
NAPOLI DU RY OLDBG SILVIO I 1135
VDL BUBALU KWPN NIMMERDOR 640
IMPERIAL WEST SIDE BWP APOLLONIUS 630
TALOUBET KWPN QUIDAM DE REVEL 415
WIVINA BWP GRANDEUR 380
PALOUCHIN DE LIGNY SBS CHIN CHIN 365
ULENA KWPN INDOCTRO 290
SOUTHWIND VDL KWPN AHORN 285
PALLOUBET D HALONG SF MUGUET DU MANOIR 225
SKYLUBET OLDBG DOMINO 210
KORRIGAN D’OLEN SF VENEUR DU DEFEY 200
MURAT DE REVE (BE) 200
BONZAI H SWB CALETTO II 190
BALOURADO KWPN CORRADO I 180
BELLA BALOUBET LANDADEL 167
RAHMANNSHOF’S BOGENO SBS ELANVILLE 155
ARAGON ROUET BWP REMONDO 115
QUERLYBET HERO STX SBS DARCO 105
WALOUBET BWP JALISCO B 95
BALOUFINA CONTINUE 90
NUMBER ONE D’ISO UN PRINCE SF SI TU VIENS 90
DIABLESSE DE MUZE BWP NABAB DE REVE 70
NOUMEA DEUX SF 70
LIBERTE COURCELLE SF SIOUX DE BAUGY 65
TRILLION SBS ELANVILLE 65
BILLY KING OLDBG QUILOT 62
BALAHE SWB FLAMINGO 55
BAQUITA QUITO DE BAUSSY 55
NABAB DES CHARMES SF 50
BALOUPETRA OLDBG PILOT 46
BALYON OLDBG GRAND CANYON 45
BALOUZINO OS ZEUS 40
TALOUBET KWPN BURGGRAAF 40
UNDERCOVER KWPN AHORN 35
MALOUBET DE PLEVILLE SF ROX DE LA TOUCHE 30
MALOUBET DU TEMPLE SF OURAGAN DE BAUSSY 25
RAHMANNSHOF’S BALUGA WESTF DARCO 25
BRODY RHEIN GRANDEUR 23
CORAL REEF BALOUFINO OLDBG CONTEUR 20
BALOUBET JUNIOR Z DARCO 15
TALOUBET KWPN G.RAMIRO Z 15
BAJOU DU ROUET HOLST CALANDO 10
RIWALS BUGATTI OLDBG CORDANO Z 10
AD BABOUCHE ALDATO 5
BALOUETTE OLDBG ALDATUS 5
BARON PKZ OLDBG CONTENDER 5
LASSERGUT MOON DE REIS SF J’T’ ADORE 5
MONTREAL TREFLE SF 5
SOTHEBYS PC DE GANEX SBS CONCORDE VAN DE HELLE 5
BALISSIMO OLDBG 2

[NOMIOMI1]

@rodawn;6032249

Raises the theory about Northern Dancer, doesn’t it. He was little, had terrible feet, some soundness issues, but he won some important races and many people bred their mares to him. He had some good things to offer, sure. But he also introduced his bad points to the whole lineage… and hmmm, however many generations out they got from that, dang it, some of those bad points STILL show up.

Hence what Tim, and Bayhawk and a few others (many others) have said on here. Baloubet du Rouet had an extraordinary gift for jumping, I swear the horse had wings hidden somewhere on that thar body. But conformation … yeesh. He kinda looked like a cross with a giraffe.

So point taken… people JUDICIOUSLY bred to him, including Holstein. But, even now… what… 2 or 3 generations out from him, owners of the descendants of BdR still need to look carefully and consider the future mate to their horse…because his bad points are STILL hiding in the genetic pool, as dilute as they are, the gene can pop up some 15 generations later out of the blue. It just needs the right companion gene to turn it on and poof there it is.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=andy.smaga;6032644]I have no dog in this fight, just trying to question some breeding habits.

Please note that opposite from Northern Dancer, Baloubet have a perfect soundness history that allowed him to perform for a very long period at the very top of the sport.

The only thing that I’m hearing is that he doesn’t look “trendy” or look like a Girafe, and I have to agree that if you are breeding to address 95% of the market (amateurs) then forget about Baloubet.

But if you are interested in the remaining 5%, then here are listed his sons who contributed to his ranking as 2nd best producing stallion in the world. (remember his first crop is 12y/o only)

There are plenty of successful horses from Norther Dancer as well, but that was not the point.

Baloubet doenst fall into “not trendy” catagory, and there are plenty who have seen him in person who have said that those pics are showing him in a good light. Ive been told his legs are pretty crooked and he has one that toes in from the shoulder :eek:

Ive also seen a horse from one of his sons that toes in pretty bad (who knows if thats from him) but its too hard to rule things out when you put a horse in the lineage with so many faults… Now you cant pinpoint exactly WHO is causing what.

That is the point.

He could have 1000 great sons making him number one sire and that would not erase his bad conformation.

And these stallions in the list Id pay to see just how nice the mares were that helped clean up THAT act

[AlterEgoME]

[QUOTE=rodawn;6032249]
because his bad points are STILL hiding in the genetic pool, as dilute as they are, the gene can pop up some 15 generations later out of the blue. It just needs the right companion gene to turn it on and poof there it is.[/QUOTE]

100% agree.

[andy.smaga]

You’re certainly right, forget about Baloubet.

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=andy.smaga;6032644]
I have no dog in this fight, just trying to question some breeding habits.

Please note that opposite from Northern Dancer, Baloubet have a perfect soundness history that allowed him to perform for a very long period at the very top of the sport.

The only thing that I’m hearing is that he doesn’t look “trendy” or look like a Girafe, and I have to agree that if you are breeding to address 95% of the market (amateurs) then forget about Baloubet.

But if you are interested in the remaining 5%, then here are listed his sons who contributed to his ranking as 2nd best producing stallion in the world. (remember his first crop is 12y/o only)

(name of offspring, SB, mare sire, Points earned in International competitions)
CHAMAN KWPN I LOVE YOU 1500
NAPOLI DU RY OLDBG SILVIO I 1135
VDL BUBALU KWPN NIMMERDOR 640
IMPERIAL WEST SIDE BWP APOLLONIUS 630
TALOUBET KWPN QUIDAM DE REVEL 415
WIVINA BWP GRANDEUR 380
PALOUCHIN DE LIGNY SBS CHIN CHIN 365
ULENA KWPN INDOCTRO 290
SOUTHWIND VDL KWPN AHORN 285
PALLOUBET D HALONG SF MUGUET DU MANOIR 225
SKYLUBET OLDBG DOMINO 210
KORRIGAN D’OLEN SF VENEUR DU DEFEY 200
MURAT DE REVE (BE) 200
BONZAI H SWB CALETTO II 190
BALOURADO KWPN CORRADO I 180
BELLA BALOUBET LANDADEL 167
RAHMANNSHOF’S BOGENO SBS ELANVILLE 155
ARAGON ROUET BWP REMONDO 115
QUERLYBET HERO STX SBS DARCO 105
WALOUBET BWP JALISCO B 95
BALOUFINA CONTINUE 90
NUMBER ONE D’ISO UN PRINCE SF SI TU VIENS 90
DIABLESSE DE MUZE BWP NABAB DE REVE 70
NOUMEA DEUX SF 70
LIBERTE COURCELLE SF SIOUX DE BAUGY 65
TRILLION SBS ELANVILLE 65
BILLY KING OLDBG QUILOT 62
BALAHE SWB FLAMINGO 55
BAQUITA QUITO DE BAUSSY 55
NABAB DES CHARMES SF 50
BALOUPETRA OLDBG PILOT 46
BALYON OLDBG GRAND CANYON 45
BALOUZINO OS ZEUS 40
TALOUBET KWPN BURGGRAAF 40
UNDERCOVER KWPN AHORN 35
MALOUBET DE PLEVILLE SF ROX DE LA TOUCHE 30
MALOUBET DU TEMPLE SF OURAGAN DE BAUSSY 25
RAHMANNSHOF’S BALUGA WESTF DARCO 25
BRODY RHEIN GRANDEUR 23
CORAL REEF BALOUFINO OLDBG CONTEUR 20
BALOUBET JUNIOR Z DARCO 15
TALOUBET KWPN G.RAMIRO Z 15
BAJOU DU ROUET HOLST CALANDO 10
RIWALS BUGATTI OLDBG CORDANO Z 10
AD BABOUCHE ALDATO 5
BALOUETTE OLDBG ALDATUS 5
BARON PKZ OLDBG CONTENDER 5
LASSERGUT MOON DE REIS SF J’T’ ADORE 5
MONTREAL TREFLE SF 5
SOTHEBYS PC DE GANEX SBS CONCORDE VAN DE HELLE 5
BALISSIMO OLDBG 2[/QUOTE

And this is exactly what I eluded to earlier Andy. What happens if you don’t hit the 5 % ? You are left with a horse no one wants.

If you breed a correct , attractive horse for the sport and it doesn’t have the capabilities of performing at the very top of the sport…we are left with a horse that we can sell to many sporthorse markets.

The Baloubet that doesn’t hit the top 5 % more than likely winds up on a dinner plate somewhere near you.

[NOMIOMI1]

[QUOTE=andy.smaga;6032995]
You’re certainly right, forget about Baloubet.[/QUOTE]

I thought you had no dog in this fight

Honesty is a breeders best friend. He is fantastic, but lets be honest about his faults like every other stallion out there.

No stallion is untouchable.

If he was a mare you’d have no problem calling his confo as it is seen :yes:

[rodawn]

[QUOTE=NOMIOMI1;6032886]

There are plenty of successful horses from Norther Dancer as well, but that was not the point.

[edit]

He could have 1000 great sons making him number one sire and that would not erase his bad conformation.

And these stallions in the list Id pay to see just how nice the mares were that helped clean up THAT act ;)[/QUOTE]

And that was my point, well said Nomiomi1. The mares were superior because his price was kinda high so only the best mares were sent to him. But that STILL does not erase his genetic heritability to the lineage. Some of his stallion sons and grandsons are spectacular. But genes are a funny thing. Sometimes a grandson or great-grandson might not carry any of his bad genes at all and their kids will be spectacular. And another one might carry hidden (dormant) ones and you won’t know until it shows up in a few of their kids. The point is, 50% of his kids carry the bad conformational genes and, to pick on a random number, let’s say 35% of his sons carry those bad genes in a dormant fashion. Their own personal conformation is beautiful, lovely talent, and they produce pretty kids… say 75% of the time. Let’s pick on another number, say some 15% kinda have the appearance of granddad - okay those boys are gelded, the mares not bred, and we’ve successfully weeded those out. Great. Well, not so great… because there is STILL an unknown percent of mares and approved stallions who don’t look like granddad, but hidden in their genetic makeup are the dormant genes of everyone else in their family tree.

I would like to hear from a bonified medical geneticist - I bet they would tell you the genetic traits carry forward for a hundred generations or more. Maybe longer. The field of genetics is relatively new and there are many things we don’t know.

Horses genome are still being unravelled, but there is a guess that they carry a similar number of genes that humans do - which is 30,000. They have 32 pair chromosomes (64 all total) upon which all the various genes reside. Some are turned on and show in the physical and psychological traits of the horse. Most are dormant.

Each foal gets exactly 15,000 genes from mom, and 15,000 from dad. Then there are some markers that come along with the ride that tell the chromosomes which genes to turn on and which to turn off. Some are only turned on for a little while before they’re turned off at a certain time - to manipulate growth factors, for example.

Let’s try to do the math (not my strong suit here) … if you want to trace ONE gene that tells the coracoclavicular ligament to be a tad shorter on the right side, which in turn puts enough pressure to twist the shoulder and carry it through to the toe in the hoof (I doubt it is just one gene that does it, but let’s just say it does)… since half go to each kid… so kid 1 gets 1:7500 chance to get it, kid 2 gets a 1:3500 and so on… I got to generation 19 and the number was 0.0286102294921875… but that’s not an eradication. It’s a small chance, but it’s still there. You keep dividing by 2 and see how far you get… it’s infinity. You NEVER get to 0.

EACH gene you are contributing to the family tree is there FOREVER.

Granted, by the time you get to generation 19 your chances are pretty slim and most of the kids are not going to have the gene. But one always will and will always carry it.

The factors are erased immediately upon the gene becoming awake and active. It starts right back at 100% again.

We try to do our best to manipulate the genetics of a horse but because humans understand so LITTLE about genetics, the best thing we can do is simply - RIGOROUSLY test our stallions (who contribute the heaviest due to sheer numbers of foals sired by them, to the overall equine genome), strictly adhere to good conformational, athletic and temperament standards in our mare pool and provide the very best environment (feed, social interactions and lesson plans) to the foals.

That makes you think, doesn’t it? We breeders have a heavy responsibility. We can make or break our breed just by the very choices we make.

That’s why the mantra of every responsible breeder is: Breed the best of the best mares to the elitest of the elite stallions.

[_Tradewind]

[QUOTE=rodawn;6033354]
And that was my point, well said Nomiomi1. The mares were superior because his price was kinda high so only the best mares were sent to him. But that STILL does not erase his genetic heritability to the lineage. Some of his stallion sons and grandsons are spectacular. But genes are a funny thing. Sometimes a grandson or great-grandson might not carry any of his bad genes at all and their kids will be spectacular. And another one might carry hidden (dormant) ones and you won’t know until it shows up in a few of their kids. The point is, to pick on a random number, let’s say 35% of his sons carry his genes in a dormant fashion. Their own personal conformation is beautiful, lovely talent, and they produce pretty kids… say 75% of the time. Let’s pick on another number, say some 15% kinda have the appearance of granddad - okay those boys are gelded, the mares not bred, and we’ve successfully weeded those out. Great. Well, not so great… because there is STILL an unknown percent of mares and approved stallions who don’t look like granddad, but hidden in their genetic makeup are the dormant genes of everyone else in their family tree.

I would like to hear from a bonified medical geneticist - I bet they would tell you the genetic traits carry forward for a hundred generations or more. Maybe longer. The field of genetics is relatively new and there are many things we don’t know.

Horses genome are still being unravelled, but there is a guess that they carry a similar number of genes that humans do - which is 30,000. They have 32 pair chromosomes (64 all total) upon which all the various genes reside. Some are turned on and show in the physical and psychological traits of the horse. Most are dormant.

Each foal gets exactly 15,000 genes from mom, and 15,000 from dad. Then there are some markers that come along with the ride that tell the chromosomes which genes to turn on and which to turn off. Some are only turned on for a little while before they’re turned off at a certain time - to manipulate growth factors, for example.

Let’s try to do the math (not my strong suit here) … if you want to trace ONE gene that tells the coracoclavicular ligament to be a tad shorter on the right side, which in turn puts enough pressure to twist the the shoulder and carry it through to the toe in the hoof (I doubt it is just one gene that does it, but let’s just say it does)… since half go to each kid… so kid 1 gets 1:7500 chance to get it, kid 2 gets a 1:3500 and so on… I got to generation 19 and the number was 0.0286102294921875… but that’s not an eradication. It’s a small chance, but it’s still there. You keep dividing by 2 and see how far you get… it’s infinity. You NEVER get to 0.

EACH gene you are contributing to the family tree is there FOREVER.

Granted, by the time you get to generation 19 you’re chances are pretty slim and most of the kids are not going to have the gene. But one always will and will always carry it.

The factors are erased immediately upon the gene becoming awake and active. It starts right back at 100% again.

We try to do our best to manipulate the genetics of a horse but because humans understand so LITTLE about genetics, the best thing we can do is simply - RIGOROUSLY test our stallions (who contribute the heaviest due to sheer numbers, to the overal equine genome), strictly adhere to good conformational, athletic and temperament standards in our mare pool and provide the very best environment (feed, social interactions and lesson plans) to the foals.

That makes you think, doesn’t it? We breeders have a heavy responsibility. We can make or break our breed just by the very choices we make.

That’s why the mantra of every responsible breeder is: Breed the best of the best mares to the elitest of the elite stallions.[/QUOTE]

Great post, rodawn. Point well stated (with much objectivity)! :yes:

[stolensilver]

The thing is I think there are far more damaging stallions available to breed from than Baloubet du Rouet. As has been pointed out BdR had an exceptionally long career and stayed sound. Those are two very big things in his favour: long term soundness and proven ability.

The same cannot be said of many, many others who do not have a top competition career. As well as being unproven beyond the young horse levels many have partly heritable diseases or trainability issues or OCD or navicular or PSD at an early age or laryngeal hemiparesis or box walking or crib biting or wind sucking or… or… or…

Worst of all is that most of the above problems are very well kept secrets. The breeders aren’t allowed to know about them.

Yes, I completely agree that breeders should strive to breed the best horses they possibly can but I think long term soundness and outstanding trainability and a top class sports career (not just young horse competitions) should be given far more weight than it currently is.

I also believe that years from now some of the big name stallions of today will have fallen into disfavour and breeders will look back and ask “why did they use them?”, just as the top Trakehner stallions of the 70s are largely forgotten because they were bred to be beautiful rather than athletic.

Today the trap I believe breeders are falling into is breeding for the flashy foal and the young horse classes rather than the horse who will have a long term career. Without the top performers any studbook or breeding farm will find it is being overtaken by people who are breeding the Olympic horses of tomorrow.

[omare]

Agree stolen silver–whatever passed along genes BDR may have they were not expressed in him in a manner that affected his longevity or talent…if that is all one needs to be afraid of… why bring it on. :0)

[D_BaldStockings]

My!

The math is simply wrong.

The following generation either inherits a gene from the direct parent or not; there is no percentage loss from generation to generation.
Either a foal inherits an x from the sire, making it a filly, or a y, making it a colt.
Fillies that grow up to become mares do NOT pass on their own sire’s y gene, nor any precentage of it. Genes are not ‘there forever’.

A gray horse is the result of the gene being passed directly parent to child for however many generations back to the original mutation.

That takes care of dominant gene inheritance.

Recessives are still either there or not there on a 50-50 chance inheritance from the parent. Horses of gray parents that are not gray do not have a gray gene to pass on.

Horses with large numbers of successful performing offspring are more likely to have the successful genetic input to offer -whether recessive or dominant -than ‘correct’ horses with large numbers of mediocre offspring.

If your market demands pretty, then recognize that you are breeding for pretty. Condemning a sire of performance horses for not being pretty would be comparable to condemning a pretty horse sire for athletic lack. And that is what the breeder of athletic horses does.

As to the 19 generations comment, please do not look back 19 generations in the warmblood breeding pool or many of the German and Dutch horses will cause you to recoil in terror at their type and conformation. 6 years per generation (being overly minimalist there) 19 times puts us back to 1900.

There are plenty of photos from that era…
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/photodb.php?land=all&letter=L&filter_sex=0&x=48

check Landgraf 1 (Ali x Nanon) 1897 blk/wht photo
understand this horse is much closer than 19 generations behind the great Holsteiner Landgraf foaled 1966 by LadyKiller, only 9 generations back.

I believe the great TB Eclipse (the original) was dsimissed as light muscled, long back and higher behind.
Of course, he could run a bit -as in undefeated- and we now know his sire line came to dominate the modern Thoroughbred. In his lifetime he was a highly successful broodmare sire as well.

As to type and conformation, or ‘eye candy’ , it sells. There is no doubt of that. But not even racehorse people with their more limited gene pool can predict the derby winner off of photos. They like to see speed works and furlong times. REAL accomplishment proof.

On to another can of worms…that pesky 5% of top horses.
If your pretty sires do not get offspring that could go in the 5% you may be ‘breeding for the Sport’, but remember most any horse can wear a saddle and be trained to novice levels.
Do you consider that building a better Sport Horse gene pool for the future?

Different markets, all within the Sport umbrella.

[grayarabpony]

[QUOTE=rodawn;6032249]
Raises the theory about Northern Dancer, doesn’t it. He was little, had terrible feet, some soundness issues, but he won some important races and many people bred their mares to him. He had some good things to offer, sure. But he also introduced his bad points to the whole lineage… and hmmm, however many generations out they got from that, dang it, some of those bad points STILL show up.

Hence what Tim, and Bayhawk and a few others (many others) have said on here. Baloubet du Rouet had an extraordinary gift for jumping, I swear the horse had wings hidden somewhere on that thar body. But conformation … yeesh. He kinda looked like a cross with a giraffe.

So point taken… people JUDICIOUSLY bred to him, including Holstein. But, even now… what… 2 or 3 generations out from him, owners of the descendants of BdR still need to look carefully and consider the future mate to their horse…because his bad points are STILL hiding in the genetic pool, as dilute as they are, the gene can pop up some 15 generations later out of the blue. It just needs the right companion gene to turn it on and poof there it is.[/QUOTE]

Then Holstein breeders must toss and turn at night worrying that an old-fashioned horse will pop out of their mares. And they’re not even 15 generations back.

Worrying about a recessive gene from BdR showing up 15 generations down the line is well, silly. A recessive gene for what, exactly?

What are his bad points again, from a functional point of view?

Oh that’s right, he doesn’t really have any. It doesn’t make any sense to compare him to Northern Dancer.

[AlterEgoME]

Agree, the allele is either there or not there, a recessive allele is possibly eliminated at the F2 generation, but could STILL be present 19 generations later and a cross with another carrier would cause it to present. And at that point no one would remember the name BdR and it would hardly be attributed to him.

Rodawn is correct however in the probability that the allele still exists, it is not a calculation in the probability that the allele will express. I actually typed a lengthy post on the genetics and the probabilities, decided it added nothing to the discussion and deleted it.

Genetic characteristics carried on the sex chromosomes are a different ballgame. The combinations and permutations are not the same as those for non-sex chromosome alleles.

Some alleles are “there forever”, others get dumped quickly. Rodawns numbers are an over simplification, but so are Blad Stockings. I think both points are valid.

[stolensilver]

The whole discussion here is a massive oversimplification. Genes are not the whole story, probably not even half the story. For starters the majority of characteristics such as “prettiness” and “athleticism” are controlled by many thousands of genes which have different effects depending upon which of them are present and in which order. A bit like making words from single letters. Very few inherited characteristics are simple Dominant or Recessive.

Secondly, and most importantly, this discussion is taking no account of epigenetics. Epigenetics controls which genes that an individual possesses are switched on or switched off. Knowledge of this is in its infancy but it has overarching importance in determining what an individual is like and, more importantly, epigenetic switches are influenced by environmental changes so how a foal is raised and fed and what they experience will alter their appearance and behaviour. Which is something we all know happens as we see it every day. Now we have the start of an explanation about why it happens.

In other words there is no way to bring genetics into inheritance (beyond the very simplest levels of colour inheritance as they are one of the only characteristics that are mostly dominant and recessive) because it is too complex and we don’t know enough about it to be able to predict how it works. All we can do is what we have always done, use phenotype, personal knowledge of the mare and stallion and education about how each stallion crosses onto different types of mare. And pray!

[NOMIOMI1]

I dont understand the whole keep your pretty horses?

Can we all agree that there is a standard of conformation within all breeds?

Can we all agree that sport horses have a standard that even supersedes breed, color, gender, and discipline?

[selah]

[QUOTE=NOMIOMI1;6034838]
I dont understand the whole keep your pretty horses?

Can we all agree that there is a standard of conformation within all breeds?

Can we all agree that sport horses have a standard that even supersedes breed, color, gender, and discipline?[/QUOTE]

Apparently not.

[RyTimMick]

@NOMIOMI1;6034838

I dont understand the whole keep your pretty horses?

Can we all agree that there is a standard of conformation within all breeds?

Can we all agree that sport horses have a standard that even supersedes breed, color, gender, and discipline?

I agree with you NOMIOMI1. We are not talking about pretty, although in my mind good confirmation is pretty. That being said, there is a type, and the breed I breed demands it of its breeding stock. There is such a thing as “Sport Horse Type”. If we as breeders didn’t believe that then we would also believe that we can’t be selective in our breeding towards that end, if there isn’t one.

I believe there is such a thing as Sport Horse Type, and I breed for it. I also happen to think that it is “Pretty”. Pretty isn’t the end game, it is just a byproduct of good breeding.

Tim

[selah]

[QUOTE=Bayhawk;6033000]

And this is exactly what I eluded to earlier Andy. What happens if you don’t hit the 5 % ? You are left with a horse no one wants.

If you breed a correct , attractive horse for the sport and it doesn’t have the capabilities of performing at the very top of the sport…we are left with a horse that we can sell to many sporthorse markets.

The Baloubet that doesn’t hit the top 5 % more than likely winds up on a dinner plate somewhere near you.[/QUOTE]

This speaks volumes.
I had an old trainer who always said that when you started to look for the soft place to land, you would surely land there.
That, and the fact that three of the four TB stallions at the verband are direct sireline to Northern Dancer…and according to the COTH Holsteiner aficionados, one of them doesn’t even jump well.

[Nod_Hill_Farm]

After all this discussion of his sons, any insights into his daughters? I know some stallions are highly regarded as damsires.