baloubet du rouet son approved by Holstein - question

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=NOMIOMI1;6025716]
There has to be a rule. Conformational standard cant change based on one horse… Or even 100 horses. The standard has been ideal for far too long and holding that measurement against stallions, mares, and their foals with so much success has proven itself abundantly clear on more levels then breed or even discipline.

You dont change something that MASSIVELY compiled because of this one jumper.

Your eye is trained to associate beauty with correctness and thats why people use the word “ugly” but really it is “incorrect” and thats a fact, not an objective ideal, no, because there is a standard set and so we cannot willy nilly decide what is and isnt correct. Fact is, against the standard he falls far below in terms of conformation. Therefore he HAD to go and be as successful as he was for this thread to even exist.

If there was no standard, there would not BE the effective breeding programs that PRODUCE horses like him.

If everyone chose conformation based off of their own experience or successful show pony we’d be in a heck of a lot of trouble because a horse that toes in can still do grand prix ;)[/QUOTE]

Good post.

Ive said it over and over…he’s only one horse. You don’t let one horse willy nilly into your gene pool. It must be done very carefully. It doesn’t matter if he’s the #2 sire in the world or not.

People tend to forget. When you breed to any given stallion ,you are INJECTING his traits , good and bad , into your mare base. There is plenty bad about BDR that they obviously don’t want on the Holsteiner mare base. There is also good jumping , soundness, ability and desire to perform etc. that they are trying to get , thus the fact of a very methodical approach , thus only one son so far.

BDR would have never been close to garnering approval from Holstein , KWPN , Hann. etc. when he was just a 3 yr old stallion without his performance record. He would have never even been invited.

The system works…when you’re not good enough to stand on your own, go off into sport and prove you need an additional chance to prove yourself worthy to breed.

[grayarabpony]

[QUOTE=AlterEgoME;6025591]
Really? Where in my post do I say that he would be unsuccessful and lame? Equestrianism said . The horse DOES NOT have good conformation, yet he remained sound, therefore he is an exception to that rule. I said nothing about dismissing him.

Of course we should figure out why a horse so poorly put together remained sound and jumped so well. I wrote one simple sentence and you extrapolated it into an opinion that I do not hold.[/QUOTE]

Instead of being unfair and insulting you could just answer my question. You said that given his conformation he should not be able to do what he has done, that he is an exception. Well, why is that? It’s perfectly relevant to your original question.

[AlterEgoME]

Please, show me where I said that! Unfair and insulting? What are you talking about?

ETA: You have inferred something that I did not imply. I addressed that incorrect inference earlier. You are being placed on ignore as you are clearly more interested in picking a fight than in discussing the actually genetics and breeding implications.

[JB]

BdR SHOULD be viewed with a critical eye to figuring out why he is so successful, both in performance and soundness, despite what appears to be less than ideal conformation

That doesn’t mean one should (always) breed to a horse like this, and it surely doesn’t mean one should breed FOR a horse of this build.

But if he, and others of similarly “bad” conformation but high performance and longterm soundness, can be studied to figure out what it is about his combination of parts, then perhaps others who are looking at some less than runway model pretty horses might be able to pick out those same combination of traits and view them as more of a performance prospect than they might otherwise do.

[grayarabpony]

Post #71. You are being unfair when you say I’m twisting what you say. Honestly I’m not trying to twist things or pick a fight. That’s just how I read your post.

As with any actual living horse there are things to improve. There’s always that balance of breeding a top athlete and breeding a beautiful horse, since I don’t believe that everyone’s idea of beautiful matches with the conformation of a top athlete. People who ride hunters definitely wouldn’t like him! Perhaps one day there will be more homogeneity in type with jumpers but that day has not yet come.

I wonder if it is possible to find pictures of mares that he has crossed well with. He’s crossed well with a lot of mares but I kind of doubt their pictures are on the internet. That would be an interesting exercise.

(Oh no! I just saw that I’m being placed on ignore by Alter! :lol: He or she never did answer my question about BdR …)

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=grayarabpony;6025850]
Post #71. You are being unfair when you say I’m twisting what you say. Honestly I’m not trying to twist things or pick a fight. That’s just how I read your post.

As with any actual living horse there are things to improve. There’s always that balance of breeding a top athlete and breeding a beautiful horse, since I don’t believe that everyone’s idea of beautiful matches with the conformation of a top athlete. People who ride hunters definitely wouldn’t like him! Perhaps one day there will be more homogeneity in type with jumpers but that day has not yet come.

I wonder if it is possible to find pictures of mares that he has crossed well with. He’s crossed well with a lot of mares but I kind of doubt their pictures are on the internet. That would be an interesting exercise.

(Oh no! I just saw that I’m being placed on ignore by Alter! :lol: He or she never did answer my question about BdR …)[/QUOTE]

Do you EVER have anything constructive to offer ? Do us all a favor and just go away until you can contribute something positive and without arguing with everyone no matter the subject.

[AlterEgoME]

So, cannot figure out, despite my desperate attempts, how to place GAB on “ignore”.

Post #71 says…

Originally Posted by equestrianism 
it’s kind of a more than well known fact you do need a good conformation in a horse to make it stay fit and sound!
Yes, but BdR defies this rule.

You said that given his conformation he should not be able to do what he has done, that he is an exception. Well, why is that? It’s perfectly relevant to your original question.

It does not say what you claim above.

What is the difference?

I said, if the RULE (per equestrianism) is that you need good conformation in a horse to make it stay fit and sound, then BdR defies this rule.

He does not have good conformation. I do not say that he should not be able to do what he does. I say “if the rule, as quoted by equestrianism, is that a horse needs good conformation to make it stay fit and sound” then BdR defies the rule.

Why does he defy the rule? I don’t know. I said it is perfectly valid to investigate. We SHOULD investigate if we incorporate his genetics into the gene pool.

You ask why I think he should be unsuccessful and lame (post #72). I don’t EVER say I think he should be unsuccessful and lame. I SAID he defies the rule as quoted by equestrianism. It is EQUESTRIANISMS rule. ASK EQUESTRIAMISM.

Do you think the horse has classic conformation? If not, then you agree, he defies the rule as presented by EQUESTRIANISM. I was making no other point than to counter the following …

Me - and many with me - find it hard to believe he would be on that list for his performance as a breeding stallion if he didn’t have any good qualities but scope and jump since it’s kind of a more than well known fact you do need a good conformation in a horse to make it stay fit and sound!

Of course he has good qualities. Good conformation is not one of them.

I have noted that in the past you were one to admonish others to read for comprehension. Pot, meet kettle.

[NOMIOMI1]

There is no need to find out how and why

Look at the racetrack… Horses of perfect conformation winning and ones that look like ole nag jack winning… But more of the former. That doesnt mean you should rush and breed to Jack, BUT if he proved to be an EXCEPTIONAL horse he’d be worth consideration…But that is the crux of the matter, you CONSIDER Jack, but you DONT change your entire breeding program or thoughts about your herds goals:no:.

[Equilibrium]

For some strange reason I looked up BdR in the SJI as a stallion just to see what some of the kids have done and to see if I could find any nicking patterns.

Baloubet Diamond and Diamond Rouet are full siblings. Both out of the Diamond Lad mare Ballynahia Diamond by Diamond Lad. Both Grade A’s

Another out of a Diamond Lad mare, Miss Baloubet, was successful to the 1.20’s and I think she is a broodmare now.

Found 1 out of the Contender mare Irisett who was clear in the 1.30’s and 1.20’s.

Baloufina is out of the Continue mare Confina. Did some small GP’s and success at the 1.30’s

My favorite is the pony Thorn. He measures in at 148 and is out of the Quick Star mare, Olympik. This guy was registered with the KWPN. He is a full horse and still active having already clocked up 315 points! I must try and find out more about him!

Those were just some of the highlights. I’d say some have been sold and some of the mares have gone off to have babies.

But Diamond Lad seems to be a decent choice! Irish mares can be short backed and necked and lack necessary athleticism so not surprising BdR could be a good choice for Irish mares.

If I had the right mare I wouldn’t hesitate to use him. I have a rectangle TB mare that just wouldn’t be right for him but that’s just common sense.

Anyway fun thread.
Terri

[stolensilver]

I feel there is a difference between successful racehorses and successful sports horses though. Racehorses, generally, only need to stay sound for 18months or so in order to have a career. Sports horses need to stay sound for 10 or more years.

IMHO there are two reasons why some horses with less than classical conformation can excel. Firstly the general consensus on what is good conformation is too narrow and, as JB suggests, the horses who excel but lie outside our ideas of what a horse should look like need to be studied to see what other types of conformation work.

The second reason is that conformation is not the same as the internal structure of the horse. The muscle attachments to the bone, the thickness and strength of the tendons and ligaments, the neural connections in the brain. The quality of the elastin in the tendons, the ratio of fast and slow twitch muscle fibres in the skeletal muscles. These things are all more important than conformation but humans are very visual learners and because these things cannot be seen they are not discussed and frequently not considered.

I absolutely believe that if a horse has poor quality tendons and ligaments it will break down, no matter how beautiful it is conformation-wise. I also believe the converse is true, that a horse with top quality tendons and ligaments will stand up to the life of a competition horse for many years despite having “bad” conformation.

Some things considered to be bad conformation are less mechanically challenging than others. Being back at the knee is bad, being over at the knee is not. (I think BdR is over at the knee, it’s why he’s standing so far under himself to try to minimise how it looks on the photo) There are many other examples such as a sloping croup. If it is allied with a supple lumbosacral connection I think it is good sports horse conformation, but many people would disagree.

All this is why it is so important to look at the soundness and competition records of any horse you are considering buying or breeding to.

[Equilibrium]

SS,

Depends on the racehorse. The valuable ones bar a few all retire early for breeding. There are horse’s still running and winning in England that I broke as yearlings. They are running through their 8yo years. Can’t do that unsound. And most NH horse’s have long careers as well. While they don’t have to be perfectly conformed the sure as heck have to have the parts to work functionally to stay sound. And most of this evaluation is going to take place at yearling age. So as at yearling stage you have to properly evaluate the conformation and type and spend other people’s money. Any idiot can look through a catalog and pick out a horse based on all the black type. But picking out a horse that hopefully stays sound for at least 4 years of racing, different ballgame. You better be able to look beyond a catalog!

Most racing is not Zenyatta and Frankel. Bread and butter horse’s probably need better conformation to last the test of time all the while being competitive.

Terri

[Equilibrium]

Sorry, keep messing up on phone. Glad you pointed out over at the knee because that never bothers me. Back at the knee and straight behind, I always pass. That is just MPO, but those are 2 no no’s for me. In my experiences too many problems with those types.

I got into a quiet blazing row with my husband at a yearling sale one year. Was looking for a horse for a client and my husband was on about this amazing filly he found. So I traipsed over and they pulled her out of the box. The straightest hind legs I’d ever seen. I wrote in my catalog, are you effin serious!!! Nice front, terrible behind. We didn’t buy her after heated go rounds and she went for 30k. So all inlistened to on the way home was how someone else thought she was worth 30k. I told him if she won a race I’d buy him dinner. Needless to say no dinners bought 5 years later. We did get client a filly the next day that won a couple of races for less money. I should have saved those catalogs for the lively banter going back and forth!

Terri

[andy.smaga]

[QUOTE=stolensilver;6026290]
the general consensus on what is good conformation is too narrow and, as JB suggests, the horses who excel but lie outside our ideas of what a horse should look like need to be studied to see what other types of conformation work.[/QUOTE]
This is exactly what I think.
Our knowledge of perfect conformation is limited to traditions coming from the time that a horse was used for carriage, maybe it’s not exactly what is needed for the top of the sport of Jumping.
Some elements are certainly the same but other details are certainly different and need to be scientifically studied.

[grayarabpony]

[QUOTE=stolensilver;6026290]
I feel there is a difference between successful racehorses and successful sports horses though. Racehorses, generally, only need to stay sound for 18months or so in order to have a career. Sports horses need to stay sound for 10 or more years.

IMHO there are two reasons why some horses with less than classical conformation can excel. Firstly the general consensus on what is good conformation is too narrow and, as JB suggests, the horses who excel but lie outside our ideas of what a horse should look like need to be studied to see what other types of conformation work.

The second reason is that conformation is not the same as the internal structure of the horse. The muscle attachments to the bone, the thickness and strength of the tendons and ligaments, the neural connections in the brain. The quality of the elastin in the tendons, the ratio of fast and slow twitch muscle fibres in the skeletal muscles. These things are all more important than conformation but humans are very visual learners and because these things cannot be seen they are not discussed and frequently not considered.

I absolutely believe that if a horse has poor quality tendons and ligaments it will break down, no matter how beautiful it is conformation-wise. I also believe the converse is true, that a horse with top quality tendons and ligaments will stand up to the life of a competition horse for many years despite having “bad” conformation.

Some things considered to be bad conformation are less mechanically challenging than others. Being back at the knee is bad, being over at the knee is not. (I think BdR is over at the knee, it’s why he’s standing so far under himself to try to minimise how it looks on the photo) There are many other examples such as a sloping croup. If it is allied with a supple lumbosacral connection I think it is good sports horse conformation, but many people would disagree.

All this is why it is so important to look at the soundness and competition records of any horse you are considering buying or breeding to.[/QUOTE]

THANK YOU.

And I agree that while bone structure is important, it’s not everything. You can’t look at two people of the same size and just from their bone structure tell which one is the better gynmast.

In addition, natural lightness of the forehand can make up for faults of the front legs.

My point was not that BdR doesn’t have any faults, my point is that I think it’s incorrect to label such a fantastically successful horse as having overall incorrect conformation in the first place.

[mbp]

SS - good point on the definition of good conformation being too narrow (and, IMO, with emerging knowledge, I think concepts of temperament, ridability, etc can be too narrow as well). A couple of random points.

Some of what has gone into the evolution of the “ideal” conformation has had to do with what makes the horse easier to ride and what makes the horse easier to show off certain aspects of talent at a young age. On another thread there are mentions of a horse that did very well in one kind of a program, but who wasn’t looking all that spiffy in a stallion show when ridden by a rider generated by a different program. So some of what has gone into some conformation (and temperament) analysis has a bias towards things other than jumping talent as an isolated trait. And that is probably as it should be, but there should be an awareness of this aspect. No one wins on an unrideable horse,there reeding towards one type of rider and riding style will not always produce the best jumper, although it will be more likely to produce the horse that those riders handle best. And while many of the top riders can handle a lot of different types of horses, they have typically been developed as riders in a system where certain styles are predominant. I think that one reason for the demise of the tb in sport in the us has been tied to some changes in rider programs, with more and more trainers, coaches and instructors having come from programs that are different than what our rider base was exposed to 40 years ago.

There has also been a focus, understandably, on the “easy to eyeball” aspects. And that has, for better or worse, also achieved an almost “tradition” type of reverence. Like some aspects of some religion, some aspects of tradition can be slow to warm to science and slow to make use of some aspects of science. We are getting to a point where some non-eyeball aspects, like quality of tendons and ligaments, could begin to be in the future evaluated and tracked, but there will have to be a shove against tradition here and there to accomplish that.

I also would like to see a little more discussion of the importance (or not, if that is the belief of some) of trotter blood in sport horses. We discuss tb a lot (and beat it into the ground some, although my personal tradition is tbs and I will always love them best) and Arab some, but rarely is the trotter aspect discussed much.

BDR’s conformation reminds me strongly of a whips field hunter at a barn where I stabled when I was younger. This horse could and would jump anything from any angle in the field and oozed scope. Now and then, not often, in the “off” hunting season (i.e., during show season) the owner would let someone take him in a few jumper classes and he alway cleaned up, despite not really ever being schooled. They just had to leave him alone and let him do his thing. He was THE horse that everyone who hunted wanted (and some of the jumpers too) but he would never have been what any of them bought as a young horse.

I’m going to toss in two additional points. One is that ideal conformation and even rideability aspects are strongly impacted by horse keeping standards in an area things from turnout to feeding to shoeing (maybe especially shoeing) . The other is that ideal conformation is tied to the types of course questions a horse is going to have toanswer.

All fwiw

[Catsdorule-sigh]

I hesitate to post here but I have a couple questions and want to learn what, perhaps, worked with this horse.

Management- coupled with a compatible rider. Of course, that goes for any horse. Was there anything specific or different that allowed BdR to compete as he did? Zenyatta comes to mind. As a very big horse, she was campaigned cautiously which her connections were sometimes criticized for. But without their care in this respect, we might never have witnessed her talent.

BdR’s humerous first caught my eye. Thought the shoulder was a little straight but over the years of observation I think that “laid back shoulder” rule might not be the all that and more for jumpers. I think BdR’s humerous is both long and quite open, from the pictures posted. I’ve read that this allows them to fold that front end easier.

His knees and hocks seem to be quite well let down. He has long gaskins. Is there anything there that helps him jump? Given that would tend to make for shorter cannons, is that what helped keep him sound, less length to those tendons? I think of a lot of modern TB’s whose hocks seems to start just below their stifles and knees just below their elbows and wonder how this got predominant in the first place and does that contribute to the soundness problems in some TB’s today?

All of these pictures seem to show a neck that is either a bit upside down or carried that way- but it’s quite long. Does that neck work for him in leverage?

I’m trying to look at this from the viewpoint of what allowed BdR to do what he did. Are there some particular points of conformation that allowed him to overcome others? Could he fold up easier and would that allow him less effort to clear fences?

That being said, even if he has some attributes that work for him, breeding those into offspring would be quite tricky and one wonders how the F1’s and F2’s would breed on? I had a foal throw back to a grandsire, so I’m aware that you won’t know until a few generations down the road and you can’t blame any breed organization at all for being cautious in this respect.

Thanks.

[Elles]

I just watched this horse today win in London under Ben Maher: http://www.horsetelex.nl/pedigree.php?horseid=444984&maxniveau=6

I must say, the mare has quite a lot of those race horse genes in her pedigree but good heavens can she jump. Rantzau, Furioso, Cottage Son, Manometer (twice), Rittersporn (twice), Anblick (twice) and Trebonius.
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/index.php?h=caretino&g=9&query_type=photos&search_bar=photos&inbred=Standard&x2=n&username=&password=&x=0&y=0

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/index.php?h=le+grand7&g=9&query_type=photos&search_bar=photos&inbred=Standard&x2=n&username=&password=&x=0&y=0

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/index.php?h=lacapo&g=9&query_type=photos&search_bar=photos&inbred=Standard&x2=n&username=&password=&x=0&y=0

[LavenderFarm]

FWIW to this conversation, I’m attaching a photo of Baloubet’s paternal grandsire, Alme, from a 1988 French stallion book. Also a photo of a print given to me by Bernard le Courtois from an oil he commissioned of Alme in his later days.

I think he is a noble horse, and certainly contributed mightily to sport breeding in many European books.

[JB]

Alme has certainly had a mark on both Hunters and Jumpers

[Elles]

[QUOTE=andy.smaga;6026296]
This is exactly what I think.
Our knowledge of perfect conformation is limited to traditions coming from the time that a horse was used for carriage, maybe it’s not exactly what is needed for the top of the sport of Jumping.
Some elements are certainly the same but other details are certainly different and need to be scientifically studied.[/QUOTE]

I totally agree. I get to see my share of Gelderlanders and also lots of other types and breeds. And although the Gelderlander genes bring a lot of that nice carriage type they do often not bring the ultimate sporthorse traits. Not on their own they don’t.