Barefoot people, please check my eye

[Alterration]

First, I’ll admit these aren’t the best photos. Fatty wasn’t loving me taking photos and kept grabbing the phone from my hands.

Fatty (nickname) is likely an EMS case. His numbers came in under but that was after management. He is on a track system with little grass. Just pulled his shoes because shoeing has become increasingly a no-go, likely due to inflammation.

Left front looks pretty reasonable to me. Small bulge in the hairline self-resolved by chipping and rounding (really amazing). But the right front looks like we have excess toe and the heels look like they are running forward to me. We are 3 weeks out from a trim on a 5 week cycle, so I’d expect to see some growth but I’m not loving that flare. He never was laminitic visibly but I’m thinking that perhaps it was low grade and hidden by the shoes?

Am I seeing correctly? And again, sorry for the pictures - having a horse that wishes he had opposable thumbs is a tricky subject when trying to take photos.

[beowulf]

It’s hard to tell from the photos but is it possible he’s clubby?

At minimum the heel depth is very high and also run forward like your eye is informing you, and the toe is long. But if he had a long standing unbalanced trim, it would take a few cycles to even a year to correct. The chipping is where that hoof wall wants to be.

How does he move?

[Alterration]

Thanks - his natural foot might be a bit clubby. He’s been on a 5 week schedule with the same farrier for quite awhile.

He’s been a little footy, but that doesn’t surprise me since we just pulled them 3 weeks ago and he is in a rocky dry lot. He had a little butt crack/deep central sulcus thrush as well after an extremely wet spring/summer which may be part of the culprit. I’ve mostly got that cleared up and the hole in the back of the foot is closing.

[Bonnie2]

To me he doesn’t look out of line for only 3 weeks barefoot. Get a rasp so you can tidy him up between farrier visits. Nothing drastic, but you can smooth out the chipping and discourage the flare. The best part of barefoot is you don’t have to make a big fix every 5 weeks. You can make a small fix twice a week.

[Alterration]

I did order a radius rasp, and I have a normal rasp. He isn’t the most patient creature in the world so I thought the radius might help me keep those edges under control while working on his compliance considering that I don’t have a lot of strength or control with a rasp. But it’s a good opportunity to work on it, so it’s a gift.

I was just worried about that slight flare to the toe and the heels which seem to be running forward a bit. If I lightly rasp those back, it feels like that might help, as well as the radius to keep the toe controlled.

[PaddockWood]

I’m open to being wrong and tell me why but to me those heels are way too long and the toes need backed up. Appears a very flat foot on the bottom. I don’t use nippers but you could start rasping every day a bit and in a week or two have things tidied up and headed in a better direction.

Would love better pics of the bottom of the foot and a shot from the back showing length of heels.

It is hard getting shots when you are alone.

[Alterration]

I’ll try to put him up today and get better shots. He is tough on that foot since I’ve been poking and prodding on that one the most since he had the thrush in that one the worst.

The other front foot doesn’t the toe that this one does. It may not be right but it isn’t sliding forward like the right front is.

Overall I’m seeing a long toe, heels running forward, and yes, that flatness. Some of that is likely due to the new shoe removal. He lost a lot of wall quickly (you can see where the nail holes are) as we have a dry lot/gravel track.

From what I’m reading, heel pain, likely from the sulcus thrush (?) and/or the crushed heels in concert might have been causing him to weight the toe? So I’m thinking if I can remove heel, we can get his foot back underneath him and get the frog to open up (in concert with the sulcus thrush cure which I’m going to continue since it was so hidden).

[JB]

Good Hoof Photos - How to take Good Hoof Photos

I agree it’s a bit hard to see what’s what, as the current photo angles distort things

One of the simplest ways to help decide how upright a foot is by genetics, or by man, is where the tall heels are. The farther back they are while still being tall, the more upright the foot naturally is. But if they’re really running forward, and just getting tall without crushing, that’s largely a trim issues.

It’s a bit more complicated than that, as a non-upright foot can become upright due to an injury, and the heel may still run forward some, so don’t take that as black and white. But generally, the more forward the heel while being tall, the more man-made it’s most likely to be

The dishing in the toe of the RF lends to the man-made issue. This may be a bit of an upright foot to begin with, but the heels to appear to be too forward, and of course the toe is dished, which strongly points to long-term incorrect trimming.

His soles look thin as well as being fairly flat. I think it would be an excellent idea to get a set of lateral rads, with the coronet and true apec (I know it’s spelled wrong, the right letter isn’t currently working on my keyboard and I can’t get spell check to recognize the right spelling ) of the frog marked. For sure, no vertical height can come off the toe, this is a horizontal length issue, not vertical. The heels are both - removing excess vertical height will also move them back.

[PaddockWood]

@Alterration

Overall I’m seeing a long toe, heels running forward, and yes, that flatness. Some of that is likely due to the new shoe removal. He lost a lot of wall quickly (you can see where the nail holes are) as we have a dry lot/gravel track.

From what I’m reading, heel pain, likely from the sulcus thrush (?) and/or the crushed heels in concert might have been causing him to weight the toe? So I’m thinking if I can remove heel, we can get his foot back underneath him and get the frog to open up (in concert with the sulcus thrush cure which I’m going to continue since it was so hidden).

OK yeah I missed all that. You’re dealing with a lot right now. What are you using for the thrush? I’ve had good luck with Red Horse Hoof Stuff - it has the thread in it and really stays in. Yeah, getting that thrush under control is going to help so much. He’s lucky to have you. How long have you had him?

[PaddockWood]

Yeah I do now see funky funky heel bulbs. Ouch!

[Alterration]

Thanks JB.

Appreciate it as that’s what I felt was going on but I’m a layperson who has just looked at a lot of feet and taken a few courses and said “this doesn’t look right”.

This is an ASB who was barefoot with no soundness issues, spent less than 6 months with an ASB farrier and now I’m still trying to get the foot back after 3 years out of those shoes. He then went to a dressage farrier, who had the feet looking ok, but I think the shoe was masking some evils, and then this farrier who was keeping him sound with shoes but he popped up with a slight hitch on this front, which was promptly declared as “oh he must have navicular” and everyone missed the central sulcus thrush because it was just in the buttcrack and a tiny hole where it shouldn’t be.

All along I kept saying “those heel bulbs don’t look right to me” but I wasn’t sure if I was falling down a bua rabbit hole and didn’t want to be “that” customer.

However, it’s gone on way too long at this point and the trim and the heels reveal the dish.

I’ll try to get some better pics but the fact that it can be seen in these despite him wiggling and trying to grab my phone out of my hand make it pretty clear to me that this needs to change and might be the root of some heel pain. Easy way to test is just to rasp them a bit.

[Alterration]

I started typing this on my phone and decided to switch.

It’s been a long saga. I’ve owned this horse for 7 years. I bought him at a time when I wasn’t capable of training him myself due to some issues related to my back and hips, as a 5 year old. He’s an ASB sport horse. I had him with an ASB trainer after having some negative interactions with two trainers regarding him (a third did love him, but I had to leave the area…boo!)

So, he went into ASB training briefly, and that’s where I think the root of our issues started. His foot literally never smelled, but as the foot got taller (as ASB trainers are wont to prefer) and the heel bulbs crushed, a hole actually showed up in the back of the foot. Having never seen a thrush like that, I was baffled (I’m used to seeing it show up as the normal under-foot ick).

He was still an ASB hunter, so he wasn’t ever saddleseat, but they do still prefer a longer foot, and I wasn’t game. So I took him out of saddlebred training, found yet another dressage trainer for riding/training while I had hip surgeries, and then the dressage farrier got a hold of him. Feet looked so much better almost immediately but I think the thrush was just lurking in there underneath. That trainer lost her barn, so eventually I bought my own facility (almost literally just for this horse) and went with another farrier.

Literally no one has flagged the heel bulbs. Seriously. I’m the one who kept looking at them going…ummmm…“nah, this isn’t right”.

And he was getting more and more sensitive for shoeing. He was never a very patient guy, but he’s generally pretty compliant, and he would yank his foot out of your hand and rear and carry on for nailing, telling me something was going on in the foot, but my CJF farriers kept telling me “he’s fine, it’s all behavioral”. Which - sure, there’s a behavioral component to it too, but he is the horse I would pick hooves for in the stall or pasture with him loose prior to this, so the reaction seemed a bit extreme. Then it was “he must have navicular now” (which would surprise me tbh) and can’t be barefoot.

Feet are not my area of expertise, but none of this seemed right. As I mentioned, I’ve taken a few courses and I’ve read a lot, but most of my experience with feet has been just asking farriers questions over the last 30 years. Soooooo, finally this year I happened to think “maybe there’s some thrush in there” and squirted some Groom’s Hand (I think that’s what it’s called? It’s got that cool WD-40 like sprayer on there) in there and treated the whole crack with artimud. While he was extremely resistant to that at first, things seem to be sealing up and he’s letting me poke around the foot more. But I’d get it cleared up, and then it would show up again. His stall, when he is in it, is immaculate and he is not a muck-loving horse. He is in a track system that is 1/2 surfaced, so his feet should be pretty dry.

So then I thought maybe it’s a really DEEP case of central sulcus thrush that we’ve just never cleared up fully which called into question the supposition that he always needs shoes and that it’s navicular etc. etc.

Last cycle, I noticed a little dishing near the end (even before we pulled shoes) and mentioned it to the farrier, but she just kinda said “eh, it’s normal”. This cycle, I thought to myself, ok, if it’s the thrush, why don’t we try to let the foot decontract since he’s not doing much right now other than wandering around the track. So we pulled the shoes, and 3 weeks in, I see more dishing and I’m thinking…nah…can’t be right.

So - yes, I feel so badly for him. He’s been trying to let me know and I keep poking at the professionals but no one wants to be that client that loses their farrier because they ask the wrong questions.

[PaddockWood]

@Alterration

So - yes, I feel so badly for him. He’s been trying to let me know and I keep poking at the professionals but no one wants to be that client that loses their farrier because they ask the wrong questions.

I’ll read your reply later tonight where I can really digest it but good on you for realizing it’s the thrush. I’ve certainly been there over the years making mistakes. If only we knew then what we know now.

I too have taken some courses and a year ago starting trimming mine after 25 years of rasping here and there in between the farrier/trimmer.

Interestingly, just this spring attended a lameness lecture with a vet who literally said there is a CRISIS in seeing bad trimming. I raised my hand and asked how is this happening? Right? These people are all trained and going through certification, right? She just shook her head.

[OzarksRider]

Have you consulted your vet about this? It would be nice to get a definitive diagnosis, a treatment plan, and professional followup.

From your description, it seems that he may have an infection that has never really cleared up. Could the original hole that you saw have been caused by a puncture wound? If so, that could have planted bacteria down deep where normal thrush treatments wouldn’t reach, and the dishing you see now may be caused by infection eating at the tip of the coffin bone. Obviously I don’t know–I’ve never seen the foot and I’m certainly not a vet. But considering how long this has been going on, I think it’s time to call the vet.

[SusanO]

I am going to second or third the suggestion to get rads done. Sensitive feet may not be behavioral in trimming - it might be due to subclinical laminitis. And I would think whoever is trimming should know if you are dealing with a low grade club foot, or not. You need to see the bony alignment to know if you are trimming that foot correctly.

[Alterration]

@OzarksRider

From your description, it seems that he may have an infection that has never really cleared up. Could the original hole that you saw have been caused by a puncture wound? If so, that could have planted bacteria down deep where normal thrush treatments wouldn’t reach, and the dishing you see now may be caused by infection eating at the tip of the coffin bone. Obviously I don’t know–I’ve never seen the foot and I’m certainly not a vet. But considering how long this has been going on, I think it’s time to call the vet.

The way the hole was situated did not appear to be a puncture wound. This is going to be really hard to explain because I’ve never seen anything like it, but I’ll give it a shot.

This is NOT his foot. But it’s a taller hoof so you can sort of mentally picture it.

So if you can see in that picture where the frog has kind of hole in the back of it, it was somewhat like that but higher, and it was sealed below it. The foot was significantly taller than this. At the time, there was nothing for him really to get punctured on, he was confined to a run and a stall (long story, and there’s a reason he’s no longer there). The foot basically appeared to “split” and then re-seal. No poke like I’d expect to see with a puncture. The frog cleft did not go the whole way to the top.

This picture might be more like it (although the bottom of his foot never had any visible thrush and NO SMELL). Where the hand-drawn tool is, there was an opening, but then there was more hard horn above it. So it looked like a normal foot (albeit tall) with a slight split in the back of it like a zipper popped open, and then more horn.

This all happened during COVID, so I wasn’t there to watch his feet grow into monstrosities.

Anyway, because he went immediately sound when he was shod by the dressage trainer, and I was in the process of having dual hip surgeries, I assumed it was being taken care of and was just the result of the crappy shoeing he had undergone. He’d been totally sound since, with shoes, it was only when I pulled the shoes that I started to get the “it’s likely a touch of navicular, put shoes back on him” schpiel. And he is a “hard” mover, as many ASBs are (he moves kind of like an Iberian horse if you can picture that - lots of knee action, we call it angry at the ground).

He has NEVER been unsound enough to get a head bob. He is tender right now, which I can see just in a general reluctance to be his normal leg-flinging self, but again, I just pulled shoes and he’s on a really rocky and gravelly track. I can’t keep boots on his feet because he flings them off or removes them manually, so we’re living with it while I try to figure out what’s going on.

@SusanO -
Could he be subclinally laminitic? Yes - it would go hand in hand with my suspicions of his insulin-status. But his numbers were ok last vet check. No heat in the feet so there was nothing that screamed “feet issues”. My suspicion of insulin-status was due to his slightly cresty neck and studdish behaviors. They did not recommend treating for any insulin-resistance at this time.

I might just have to force the issue with the vets. Now that he’s actually visibly a bit tender I might get a better answer, but I have been unimpressed with the local group. They seem great with the big things but the more subtle things are not in their wheelhouse. Although we did have a hind hoof puncture and I was very not impressed with their response to that at all.

What I really need to find is a trimmer who will work hand in hand with good rads. However, the only ones I know are from far away and $250 per trim. Which is fine if that’s what we have to do, but if I can knock that heel back and see if I can get the heels to widen and clear up the thrush, I’d be hard pressed to pay yet another professional to tell me my horse is “fine” or “just has a touch of navicular”.

[Alterration]

I think the thing that frustrates me is that I don’t want to become an expert in feet. I’ve specialized on the training end (though I’m not a trainer, I used to break greenies and now I’m just a broken old lady that has my own barn and works my own horses) and the feet end I always left to the experts…because they are the experts and I have a bad back so I thought - trimming is not a good idea for me. I mean, sure I’ve knocked off a ragged edge here or there, but that’s different from really trying to affect a trim.

If I have to go to get a good barefoot certification to do it myself I will - I’ve done online work and I have books that I’ve studied throughout the years, I’m not completely out of my depth. I generally understand how the hoof functions and what a healthy hoof looks like. I’ve watched dissections and I have a hoof with coffin bone (de-horsed) that I’ve shown people to explain the structures. But my knowledge is very theoretical as I’ve never taken an active role with the rasp other than to swipe it a few times to try to get a green bean to accept rasping and to knock off a chip. And as we all know, there’s a gap between theoretical knowledge and practical experience.

I just feel completely let down by my professionals, which I’m sure is coming through in my posts.

[PaddockWood]

I feel for you - so much. Your situation is one where I feel you do need help and I agree xrays make sense. I don’t want to trim either - it’s hard work and pressure mentally.

My thought in this moment for you is right now you aggressively work on the heel bulbs and cracks. Get some Hoof Stuff and start stuffing in there.

[Alterration]

I just got some more stuffage stuff so hopefully we’ll be able to clear this up. I just don’t know how deep it went. What’s amazing (or weird) is that it still doesn’t smell like thrush.

[rulex]

@Alterration

I think the thing that frustrates me is that I don’t want to become an expert in feet.

Me either, yet I’ve been trimming my own going on 3 years now. PTSD from having other “professionals” butcher my horse’s feet.

I’m not a professional and those photos are not ideal angles. But I would suspect the heels are too high only because it looks like there are an awful lot of dead layers of frog built up. That would give thrush a nice place to hang out. I think an incorrect trim can definitely exacerbate thrush issues.

Are you able to find a good barefoot trimmer in your area? Or a keen up and coming trimmer or farrier who would be open to doing exactly as you ask?