Barisone assessment

[Seeker1]

Please review above clarfication

[CurrentlyHorseless]

@Virginia_Horse_Mom

@CurrentlyHorseless

Reciprocal, tit for tat bullying and harassment between the sides is my basic view of the tragedy.

If you view it as all harassment and no bullying, that’s fine.

I view it as neither harassment nor bullying

What do you think MB meant in the July 13 text when he said that he would make their lives so miserable they would be begging to leave?

I think MB meant he wanted to avoid a messy and combative eviction procedure. He wanted to avoid formally kicking her out as a boarder. Perhaps because both things would have certain problematic future implications for LK. For instance, if he formally kicked her out as a boarder and client, if future barns called to ask for references, he would be professionally obligated to disclose this. It would make things hard for LK to find places to train and board. If she voluntarily chose to leave… when hypothetical future trainers or boarding barns called and asked if there were issues, MB could be noncommittal if that seemed wise, and simply say that LK chose to move on. Honestly… I have ALWAYS thought that MB was actually trying to do LK a favor by trying to get her to ‘self select’ and just leave, and LK comes off as an ignorant petulant child in terms of how she (and her supporters) still fail to grasp the full implications. I think MBs text meant he was going to get everyone at the farm to be cold as ice, and do NOTHING extra for her or her horses… which is often an effective way of getting unwanted people to choose to leave a barn or training relationship. But this is not the same thing as harassment or bullying

When I first listened to his 911 calls, I was puzzled as to why someone would call 911 to report that a bizarre FB post had been posted the previous night, or that his clients were refusing to sign a document. He called police because they were in the barn after 9:00 to wrap legs.

I think he was terrified by her bizarre FB rant. Maybe because of his delusional disorder. Maybe because she is a legitimately extreme person, and some folks do find her frightening and unstable. He legitimately was experiencing fear about what she might be doing in the barn at night. So he called 911. Is it dramatic and extreme? Maybe. We have the benefit of hindsight though

I now think the calls were designed to harass and intimidate them. Possibly it was just a show to convince MHG that he was actually trying to get them out “by making them miserable”. He reciprocated on the call to SS. He reached out to anyone who had had a SM feud with LK. He compiled a 750 page complaint to get her banned from USEF. Told the farrier not to shoe her horses.

I think he called 911 because he was legitimately in a panicked state about how LK and RGs behavior might escalate. Maybe the panic was a result of his worsening delusional disorder and underlying anxiety and depression issues. But the 911 calls weren’t a calculated harassment campaign, in my opinion. I think the complaint that MB and MHG made to SS regarding LK was 100% legitimate. She had displayed aggressive conduct (made statements on social media) concerning MHGs children. LK has a lengthy arrest record. C’mon. It’s a legit complaint. Not part of a harassment campaign. And he might have told the farrier not to shoe her horses that day because ED (the lawyer hired by JK) had literally just arranged for LK and all her horses to leave the farm in the next few days.

Since the recording operation was concealed, that was not designed to harass him, but understandably angered him when it was discovered.

I call COMPLETE BS on this. The recording operation was MOST CERTAINLY designed to harass him. She was routinely posting details of his recorded private conversations with 3rd parties on social media in a cryptic manner, for weeks leading up to the shooting. The whole point of this behavior was to intimidate him, make him feel paranoid, etc. It’s obvious harassment.

I’ve said for months that at any time, either side had multiple opportunities to deescalate, but each side escalated instead.

I suppose MB could have deescalated and just allowed LK to continue to stay at his farm, while she continues to create havoc and be a total PITA. Or… he could have escalated and just gone through an attorney and done a formal eviction. If he had gone with option #2… let’s be honest… LK still would have pitched a fit and caused more issues. LK was NEVER going to leave in a dignified, mature, and normal manner. That much is obvious.

That’s why MHGs text of Aug 3 is crucial- he’s called the police several times on them, which I interpret as intimidation and harassment, but no one has told them to leave. It’s established that the demand to vacate was not issued until August 5 or 6. Everybody (except me) assumes they were verbally and informally told to leave well prior to Aug 3. Maybe they were. But it has not been established that they were asked to leave.

I still disagree that calling the police was calculated harassment. He was panicking and freaking out, and desperately wanted them to go. I think you are deliberately ignoring that.

Of course the idea that MB wanted them gone and would omit to ask them to leave but chose instead to “make their life miserable” so they “would beg to leave” just defies logic, right? It makes no sense. It’s just inconceivable that he would not have asked them to leave.

Again… I disagree. I think that as of July 2019, the strategy on MBs part to make LK miserable and just decide on her own to go elsewhere with RG and her horses - well - That was to LKs long term benefit. Seriously. She just wasn’t mature enough to think this all the way through, and take the exit ramp in a dignified and mature manner.

Well, it’s inconceivable that he would drive over to their residence and shoot her, as has been established in a court of law. We now understand that he was delusional and legally insane, which excuses him from criminal responsibility for the shooting.

If the insanity and delusions explain the inexplicable shooting, it can also explain why he, inexplicably, omitted to simply tell her to leave before Aug 5 or 6.

On “others really wanted her gone”, if it’s true that JK and Tarshis had been negotiating a new arrangement during that last week, that can also be interpreted as her having decided it was time to go, based on her own preferences, and negotiating the terms. I’ve always said that the sloppy financial deals complicated a final reckoning of exactly what each party owed the other.

I’ve always said that RG was a complete grifter, and part of ‘the plan’ was to use the lack of formal documentation as a way to shake down MB for cash on their way out. It’s pretty obvious to me. So we are just going to have to agree to disagree on how we see this one.

Seeker is now saying that JK was not involved in these negotiations, and it’s true that JK did not testify. I had been assuming JK had been involved in the Tarshis negotiations, but now I have doubts, given what Seeker said.

So I guess this means Seeker is de facto accusing ED of lying on the stand as well? That’s interesting.

Lots of people here cheered the verdict of NGRI.

I have to wonder if people think he was never insane at all, and his brilliant lawyer established the insanity finding to get him acquitted, or whether people think he was delusional for a 12 hour period in which he shot her, but was completely sane and rational for all of July through the morning of Aug 7.

I think his behavior in those final weeks is evidence of delusion at that time. That makes what is otherwise inconceivable - that he omitted to ask her to leave- conceivable to me. Just my opinion.

Huh. So you think he was insane in those final weeks… but you also keep trying to say that his desperate 911 calls are evidence of a calculated harassment campaign. Frankly… I don’t think those two positions work together. It seems to me that you don’t think he was REALLY all that insane, and you are just a touch bitter that the verdict was NGRI…

strong text = all my responses to CH’s arguments.

Actually, we agree on some issues, I think.

I think we agree that his behavior, not just on Aug 7 but in the weeks leading up to it, was strongly affected by his delusions. I guess we can’t say he had “intent” to harass her in the same way that we can’t say he had “intent” to murder her, due to the delusions.

I just don’t buy that he was refraining from evicting her out of kindness to protect her future options in the sport. He went to considerable effort to attempt to get her a lifetime ban.

You’re right that given that LK was posting about what she had heard on the recordings that that was meant to harass him - I agree.

I don’t think a rational person thinks that it’s a kindness to decline to tell someone it’s time to leave and vow to make them so miserable they will be begging to leave. Most people over the age of 14 know that if a personal relationship breaks down, you try to tell the person you’re quitting the client relationship because it’s just no longer a good match, you need the stalls for other new clients that are clamoring to train with you, whatever. You don’t say “you need to leave because my girlfriend hates your guts and every else does, too.” He would not have needed to put an eviction on her record if he had given her 30 days notice before July 1 and let her vacate. I think he couldn’t use the demand to vacate route because he was not clear in his mind that we wanted her gone as of July 1, didn’t provide notice, and did not want to wait 30 days when he later did want her gone.

So some, but not all, of his “negative” treatment of her may be down to the delusions.

It’s the demonstrated delusional behavior that makes me think that the inconceivable is conceivable - that he hadn’t asked her to leave sooner than Aug 5 or 6.

But there is evidence that he also had something of a bully personality. I’m thinking of the COTH member who posted in about 2015 that she did not recommend him as a trainer because she in her experience he was abusive and dishonest, and he had shipped her horse to Florida without her knowledge and consent because he wanted to campaign the horse himself.

[Angela_Freda]

@hut-ho78

Not following the logic here. Just typing a transcript is indicative of what?

Knowledge.

[DownYonder]

@FitzE

@DownYonder

And I can’t help but wonder why Bilinkas wanted to explore it. Perhaps he knows where the money came from, but revealing the source would have cast LK in an unfavorable light. And since she wasn’t on trial, Taylor wouldn’t allow that discussion to proceed any further.

Interesting. It hadn’t occurred to me that the source of funds could be something someone would not want exposed. I was thinking more along the lines of how unusual it is to have someone in their 40s who does not manage/have access to their own money, if it is, indeed, their own. My parents haven’t written cheques for me since the pre-uni years.

Agree it is highly unusual that someone in their 40’s needs a parent to manage their money and pay their expenses.

And the source of the funds could be something totally innocuous, such as an inheritance, insurance claim settlement, etc.

Or the source could be something a bit more “interesting” such as a previous lawsuit or shakedown.

The fact that Taylor was absolutely not going to allow it to be discussed does make one wonder.

[CurrentlyHorseless]

@DownYonder

@eggbutt

So @Seeker1 did you sit in on the 48 Hours interview too? If so, was it scripted?

My theory that it appeared as though someone was auditioning for 48 Hours was flagged and removed by the Mods. Not sure why it was flagged - maybe was getting too close to the truth.

Maybe that’s they why it was flagged. But why would the mods remove it for “getting too close to the truth”?

[2tempe]

She said at the trial she “had” 8-9 horses. It is worth noting that she has some arrangement with Ruth Cox re co-ownership of some number of horses, and they have done some breeding together. It is not uncommon for someone to buy or breed a nice horse, give a pro some ownership interest in exchange for the training and competing of said horse with original person still footing the other bills. There is more than one variation of this theme but after the horse is brought along to a certain level and sold, the sale price is then split. SO I stand by my belief that someone was paying board on most of those 8-9 horses but it wasn’t Mary.

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

@Seeker1

Please review above clarfication

OK. I just reviewed it.

Let’s try this another way.

I will state as a fact that I have heard a rumor that a family member of yours, is involved in the movie production business.

Would you care to confirm or debunk this rumor? It’s obviously your choice.

I will refrain from sharing additional commentary about the rumor I heard. Because I don’t what is true or not. Presumably you do. Which is why I am asking you directly, and offering you the opportunity to debunk it.

[MorganSercu]

Jim Butcher has. Raith, Skavis & Malvora families.

I think the Kanareks are mostly Skavis & Malvora but use a touch of Raith to set the hook.

[eggbutt]

Indeed. I have wondered about the entertainment industry for some time, but I have no clue.

LK doesn’t have the credentials to be sponsored by a wealthy dressage enthusiast, so who knows?

[CurrentlyHorseless]

@LilRanger

@FitzE

Meanwhile, once again, other than the GFM updates, the MB side has maintained a dignified silence.

You know, I get your meaning, but at this point, IMHO, the MB side has simply maintained a normal and predictable silence.

Isn’t Eggbutt part of the MB side? She has had personal interactions with LK, and is a long time family friend of MHG.

She has hardly been silent.

[hut-ho78]

@DownYonder

@FitzE

@DownYonder

And I can’t help but wonder why Bilinkas wanted to explore it. Perhaps he knows where the money came from, but revealing the source would have cast LK in an unfavorable light. And since she wasn’t on trial, Taylor wouldn’t allow that discussion to proceed any further.

Interesting. It hadn’t occurred to me that the source of funds could be something someone would not want exposed. I was thinking more along the lines of how unusual it is to have someone in their 40s who does not manage/have access to their own money, if it is, indeed, their own. My parents haven’t written cheques for me since the pre-uni years.

Agree it is highly unusual that someone in their 40’s needs a parent to manage their money and pay their expenses.

And the source of the funds could be something totally innocuous, such as an inheritance, insurance claim settlement, etc.

Or the source could be something a bit more “interesting” such as a previous lawsuit or shakedown.

The fact that Taylor was absolutely not going to allow it to be discussed does make one wonder.

There have been several statements about how LK May have made money or didn’t have any money and lived off her parents ir hasn’t taken money from her parents since she was a young age or her dad managed her money. There have been many statements about her dad that he is a prominent lawyer or was or he now works at an investment firm or crazy claims about nefarious activities. These comments have conflicted each other so they can’t so be true assuming any are and the only consistency is that they have been posted here in order to bait, taunt, and demean one person and her family.

They have nothing to do with pious false innocence of “we only want to discuss the trials.” Who does that?

[hut-ho78]

@2tempe

She said at the trial she “had” 8-9 horses. It is worth noting that she has some arrangement with Ruth Cox re co-ownership of some number of horses, and they have done some breeding together. It is not uncommon for someone to buy or breed a nice horse, give a pro some ownership interest in exchange for the training and competing of said horse with original person still footing the other bills. There is more than one variation of this theme but after the horse is brought along to a certain level and sold, the sale price is then split. SO I stand by my belief that someone was paying board on most of those 8-9 horses but it wasn’t Mary.

That may be so but that is not what was testified to in court.

[CanteringCarrot]

@hut-ho78

@CanteringCarrot

@hut-ho78

Also, a different point, the police did well. No one died. The paper gives the ideal but then explains 1 or 2 officers may have to act and they need life saving equipment to do so. They did.

You have low standards when it comes to the police and them “doing well” and we’ve established that before. I will agree that no lives were lost that day, and that was an example of good work.

“No one died” doesn’t excuse poor crime scene processing though. You cannot use “the rain” as an excuse for everything or that they were busy saving lives (still time to process things after the victims were removed from the scene). Yes, those excuses might work for a few things, maybe, but there were some inadequacies, IMO.

Please read the article for your own edification and stop making comments about my standards. The mods don’t like it when we attack each other.

I didn’t attack you, but ok I’ll make comments about your standards all day long, if it’s true and relevant to the conversation. You can flag my post, if you’d like. No need to read for my “edification” either would you like to further dictate about what I can or cannot post?

Edit: spelling

[Seeker1]

I dont call mocking our family members names on the go fund me page for an attempted murderer “silence”…classy right? We would never engage I such hurtful behavior even thou he tried to murder my first born.

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

@MorganSercu

Jim Butcher has. Raith, Skavis & Malvora families.

I think the Kanareks are mostly Skavis & Malvora but use a touch of Raith to set the hook

Interesting. I’ve never read anything from Jim Butcher.

I’ve said it before, but some of the key personalities totally remind me of a few different Gillian Flynn characters.

In particular, “Amma” from “Sharp Objects.”

[CurrentlyHorseless]

@DownYonder

CurrentlyHorseless:

Since the recording operation was concealed, that was not designed to harass him, but understandably angered him when it was discovered.

VirginiaHorseMom:

I call COMPLETE BS on this. The recording operation was MOST CERTAINLY designed to harass him. She was routinely posting details of his recorded private conversations with 3rd parties on social media in a cryptic manner, for weeks leading up to the shooting. The whole point of this behavior was to intimidate him, make him feel paranoid, etc. It’s obvious harassment.

Hear, hear, VA Mom!

@DownYonder
I responded to VHMs comments on my post, and completely agreed that the recording was meant to harass, given the posting on FB

@Virginia_Horse_Mom I appreciated your response, and you altered my views considerably, particularly on that point.

[CurrentlyHorseless]

@eggbutt

@Virginia_Horse_Mom

@DownYonder

And I can’t help but wonder why Bilinkas wanted to explore it. Perhaps he knows where the money came from, but revealing the source would have cast LK in an unfavorable light. And since she wasn’t on trial, Taylor wouldn’t allow that discussion to proceed any further.

Interesting theory.

Why don’t we just ask @Seeker1 to speak to this issue?

Seeker - do you care to shed any light whatsoever on whether or not there is something unusual, or possibly embarrassing about how your family accumulated sufficient funds to support your daughter’s riding?

For the record… I’m not accusing you or your loved ones of being involved in anything criminal. Just… perhaps there is something about the source of the funds that you all do not wish to make public?

With 100% certainty the source of LK’s money will be brought out in the trial as well as JK’s involvement in it.

How would you know this, Eggbutt?

[jaj]

Also, the Klan keeps acting like this was section 8 housing, and that everyone should know the procedures for eviction. Pretty ludicrous.

[FitzE]

I want to clarify that, in my post, when I say the other side, I mean people directly involved (MB, MHG, RC, JH - really all the barn staff and fellow boarders) have maintained a dignified silence that has served them very well in the trial, will continue to serve them well in the upcoming trial, and speaks highly of their individual characters.

You are objecting to behaviour of random users of this forum or YouTube or facebook. Those people are not what I would consider the other side. I consider them - including all posting here - mere onlookers.

The parties to the trial on the other side have absolutely remained wisely and absolutely silent on social media.

Edit to clarify: I was wrong to say ‘all posting here’ are onlookers; I recognise that you and your daughter also post here (past tense for your daughter) and on YouTube, and LK and RG post on many of the other SM platforms as well.

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

Fair enough CH. Glad we could have a decent discussion today.

Sorry if I a came off as hostile in terms of calling your thought process on that one issue “BS.” It would have been more cordial if I had just said that I saw it through a very different lens.