Barisone Criminal Case Update

[SillyHorse]

@Inigo-montoya

By way of example, you can see that the usual suspects are already here doing their “thing” first thing Sunday morning.

Hey, are you the Maestro? she asked, adjusting her bathrobe.

[trubandloki]

@SillyHorse

@Inigo-montoya

By way of example, you can see that the usual suspects are already here doing their “thing” first thing Sunday morning.

Hey, are you the Maestro? she asked, adjusting her bathrobe.

I admit this made me giggle, but IM is way, and I mean WAY too literate to be the Maestro.
There is no way IM could ever write as poorly as the Maestro.
I would guess in his every day life he is typically a very logical and caring person (unlike the Maestro).

IM, I appreciate your response to @3PonyFarm, and I some what get what you are saying. But (you knew there had to be one), LK acting like that happened on her social media long before this shooting ever took place. Long before these threads that are blamed for her being like this.

It has to be hard to be so angry at the world all the time. I do hope you are helping her get some help on that front. Her life would be that one step even more wonderful.

[MHM]

@Knights_Mom

The post really isn’t worth responding to.

That’s true of many posts. Sometimes it requires quite a bit of restraint.

The downside is that then the person who made the ridiculous post gets the idea that since no one disagreed with them, they must be right.

[BrendaJane]

well, I for one read it in the vein it was intended.
But then again you are talking about somebody who does not take instructions on how to quote properly without attitude.
I think you cast thyne pearl before swine as attention is the primary goal for some. The Kardashians made billions of this.

[Knights_Mom]

@MHM

@Knights_Mom

The post really isn’t worth responding to.

That’s true of many posts. Sometimes it requires quite a bit of restraint.

The downside is that then the person who made the ridiculous post gets the idea that since no one disagreed with them, they must be right.

Well we can’t save the world. I totally do get your point though.

[LilRanger]

Yes the human element is very important. I’ve seen nearly identical fact patterns have vastly different outcomes because of the attorneys in the cases. The facts don’t actually speak at all, much less for themselves.

[Knights_Mom]

@Inigo-montoya

You owe no apologies, in my opinion. I read your post to be supportive and in the spirit of the kindness Mrs Kanarek suggested.

I believe LK misinterpreted your post and if I can get a message to her I’ll let her know that.

The only thing I can say in defense of LK is that she is so used to being attacked by the usual suspects every day is that she overreacted.

By way of example, you can see that the usual suspects are already here doing their “thing” first thing Sunday morning.

Yesterday a poster…CHT…laid out a scenario that might explain what happened and was somewhat sympathetic to LK. As usual…no…as always…the usual haters are already here mocking the CHT post and suggesting it be ignored.

What a sick, pathetic agenda to start one’s day!

Thank you for your kind post and I’m sorry it was misinterpreted.

Oh I’m sorry. Shall we check with you before we post in order to get your approval? Perhaps schedule a time that is acceptable to you?

[rothmpp]

@Inigo-montoya

The only thing I can say in defense of LK is that she is so used to being attacked by the usual suspects every day is that she overreacted.

By way of example, you can see that the usual suspects are already here doing their “thing” first thing Sunday morning.

Yesterday a poster…CHT…laid out a scenario that might explain what happened and was somewhat sympathetic to LK. As usual…no…as always…the usual haters are already here mocking the CHT post and suggesting it be ignored.

What a sick, pathetic agenda to start one’s day!

You’re kidding, right?? The scenario laid out by CHT is not how you act in a professional, business relationship. If your attitude is “boss, beat, and outdo” someone who you are paying for their training and expertise, the relationship has very clearly disintegrated beyond repair. Gross-ass adults would seek to sever that relationship, ASAP. Which MB was attempting to do. But LK, per her own pre-shooting commentary was seeking to destroy his life, rather than find a more palatable training arrangement.

Of course, this in no way excuses her getting shot.

As much as we can find LK’s behavior before, during, and after the shooting to be abhorrent, I think the reality is, depending on the options given to the jury, he’s going to be found guilty, because you can’t shoot people as part of a business dispute.

[IPEsq]

Assault and battery are torts (civil claims) also. Assault (criminal) doesn’t seem to carry very stiff penalties as far as jail time, relatively. Especially simple assault. So, perhaps strategically, if the government can’t get an attempted murder charge, they’ll leave it up to the victims to get some compensation out of a civil suit.

[CurrentlyHorseless]

@Knights_Mom

@CurrentlyHorseless

@Knights_Mom

@CurrentlyHorseless

@Knights_Mom

@CurrentlyHorseless

@MHM

@Knights_Mom

double jeopardy/in relation to charges,

That would be my question. If he’s acquitted on the current charges, could they turn around and charge him with some variety of assault? And then hold him in jail awaiting trial for another two and a half years?

That’s the issue of lesser included charges. If they are going to consider a lesser included charge like assault, I think that would happen as a menu of charges (attempted murder or assault, but not both) at the conclusion of the original trial. If assault is not included as a possible option for the jury in the original trial, I don’t think they could bring it up later.

In a prior post I think we determined NJ for a murder charge wouldn’t include assault with a weapon as a lesser included offense due to the Elements issue of a weapon not being a necessary part of the definition of murder.

If I’m wrong please someone correct me.

Well, I didn’t agree to that statement; we’re not talking about murder here.

The main charge is attempted murder. If it’s proven that he stood there and shot her, but they can’t prove intent to kill, that sounds like the elements of assault to me. But IANAL.

That’s not how it works.

The places that use the Elements standard maintain that a charge includes a lesser included offense if that offense is a necessary component of a crime. I’m thinking murder and attempted murder would be similar. The element in question is that a weapon is not a necessary element of murder. Meaning the definition of murder (and/or attempted murder) does not necessitate a weapon being used. The weapon isn’t included in the definition of murder.

The definition of murder is causing someone intentionally to die or acts that are done in order to get the desired outcome and intention of having someone die.

The weapon part isn’t part of the definition therefore using Assault with a deadly weapon would NOT be a lesser included offense using the Elements standard.

Likewise Attempted murder would follow suit as it’s just the attempted/tried to version of murder which is already defined above.

If I have this wrong please correct me.

Who said anything about a weapon? You can attempt to murder someone without a weapon and you can assault someone without a weapon. Seems to me the difference is whether or not there was an intent to kill.

The weapons charge is a separate charge.

You are misunderstanding. Read what @SummerRose posted.

Thank you @SummerRose

Nope. Not misunderstanding. What I wrote is exactly consistent with the concept of the elements test, I just didn’t use the term “elements test”.

The charged offense is attempted murder (not murder). IPEsq has said several times that NJ does not have a charge of “murder with a deadly weapon”. NJ has assault and aggravated assault.

So let’s talk about “attempted murder” and “assault”, instead of the Nolo example of “murder” and “assault with a deadly weapon”.

Suppose the crime of assault in NJ has 2 elements, and the crime of attempted murder has those same 2 elements plus a third element of “intent to kill”. Then by the elements test, if the jury found the two elements of assault were present, but was not convinced that he intended to kill her, assault would potentially be a lesser included charge.

From what I’ve read (as a non lawyer), I think it might be up to the judge as to whether he instructs the jury that they have the option of convicting on assault vs attempted murder, or whether their menu of choices is just guilty of the charged offense or acquittal.

@Inigo-montoya Can you shed some light on how lesser included offenses such as assault or aggravated assault could come into play in the trial?

I can’t speak for all posters here, but I have always valued your info.

[3PonyFarm]

Thank you, when I reread it yesterday I did see how it could be taken in an entirely different manner.
Some of the posters here have a beautiful writing style that I do not have, rather than trying to fix it, I thought it best to just delete it. I also felt bad, as the creator of this thread that it was causing pain for anyone. That was not my intention when I started it.
Have a wonderful day everyone!

[CurrentlyHorseless]

@SillyHorse

@Inigo-montoya

By way of example, you can see that the usual suspects are already here doing their “thing” first thing Sunday morning.

Hey, are you the Maestro? she asked, adjusting her bathrobe.

The accusation that IM is Maestro is based on the genuine commonality that both have “pushed back” on what they perceive as gratuitous personal attacks on non anonymous people. I am aware of the multiple, thousand post long threads on Nick Peronace (they are often among the most active threads on the Dressage forum). I have never posted on them, or flagged any posts on them, and don’t look at them much, but I am aware of them.

I’ll risk the inevitable attacks by stating that as a long time Coth reader, it’s the typical content of both the Peronace threads and the Barisone threads that, like IM, I strongly dislike about this forum.

“So why are you here?” (I’ll say the lame refrain for you). There’s a lot in these forums I really value. A lot.

So attack away ladies! I can’t ride because I’m CurrentlyHorsesless, but I have Christmas shopping to do and will be blissfully logged off!

[BrendaJane]

you are a kind soul.
Do not feel bad for posting a link to an article discussing legal matters we are interested in.
Some folks choose to be upset, regardless (or use your gentleness against you)

I for one appreciate your thoughtful contributions!

[Inigo-montoya]

Thanks, I appreciate that.

I really don’t know much about NJ criminal law or how criminal trials are run so I don’t want to speculate about that. I’ll venture a guess (is that different than speculating…lol).

I suppose a lesser charge could be offered as part of a plea but I’m guessing the prosecutor feels the case against MB is so “open and shut” that there is no reason to include lesser charges.

While American juries tend to be incredibly stupid (as in the OJ and Trayvon Martin cases) I’d much rather be the prosecutor than the defense attorney in this case.

Good luck with your shopping. Merry Christmas.

[SillyHorse]

@CurrentlyHorseless

The accusation that IM is Maestro is based on the genuine commonality that both have “pushed back” on what they perceive as gratuitous personal attacks on non anonymous people.

Accusation?

It must be awful to go through life with no sense of humor, unable to recognize a joke when it’s as plain as the nose on one’s face.

[eggbutt]

I keep thinking back to a somewhat bitter post IM made in another thread basically saying MHG would be destroyed once everything comes out and vowed she will never make an Olympic team (words to that effect). Other than apparently wanting LK & Co off the property, how will she be destroyed? I assume the thought is something she may have said on the recordings will hurt her. But, as of now none of us know if they will be admissible. He also eludes if LK could push a button she would swap MB out of jail for MHG taking his place.

For sure this trial will be interesting.

[CanteringCarrot]

I also slightly intrigued by this MHG thing. Was she really that instrumental in all of this? I also don’t understand the jealousy angle, but jealousy is an odd thing.

[Angela_Freda]

Instrumental or the unaware impetus?

[Inigo-montoya]

Let me clear up a few things since I really don’t want to be back here. I only intended to come back because Scribbler misrepresented something I had said and to thank 3 PonyFarm for her act of kindness.

1. I have no idea if you contacted any media…I assume you did not…whatever…not something I think about

2. I may have given the wrong impression about MHG being destroyed criminally. If I did, then, my bad. However, I believe she will be extremely limited as to how far she can advance in the sport. I can’t imagine given the revelations about Olympic swimming and gymnastics that the USOPC (which doesn’t care about admissibility) will want to touch MHG with a 10 foot pole.
   We shall see.

3. There is much discussion about the admissibility of the audios. In my opinion, that’s a waste of time. I’m thinking the prosecutor believes the case is in excellent shape without the audios. The audios may be much more useful to SafeSport, USOPC, 48 Hours, etc., wherein the rules of evidence do not apply.

4. You like to preach here about the multitude of witnesses who will testify about LK’s character. Do you not think the prosecutor has at least as many witnesses who have come forward to speak about MB’s violent, erratic temper and how they lived in fear of him while working for him or training with him? People who immediately thought, “thank God MB’s ex wife, Vera, got out alive. People who heard about the shooting and immediately thought…” there but for the grace of God go I."

In my opinion none of those witnesses ON EITHER SIDE should be admissible. People hate LK, people hate MB. So what? The jury’s job is to determine what happened on 8/7/19…not to be prejudiced by stories about either the plaintiff or defendant’s character or popularity.

I have no idea who or what the judge will allow…but you can be sure for every anti LK witness there’s an anti MB witness.

Happy Holidays, Merry Christmas to all.

[Angela_Freda]

@Inigo-montoya

Let me clear up a few things since I really don’t want to be back here. I only intended to come back because Scribbler misrepresented something I had said and to thank 3 PonyFarm for her act of kindness.

1. I have no idea if you contacted any media…I assume you did not…whatever…not something I think about
2. I may have given the wrong impression about MHG being destroyed criminally. If I did, then, my bad. However, I believe she will be extremely limited as to how far she can advance in the sport. I can’t imagine given the revelations about Olympic swimming and gymnastics that the USOPC (which doesn’t care about admissibility) will want to touch MHG with a 10 foot pole.
   We shall see.
3. There is much discussion about the admissibility of the audios. In my opinion, that’s a waste of time. I’m thinking the prosecutor believes the case is in excellent shape without the audios. The audios may be much more useful to SafeSport, USOPC, 48 Hours, etc., wherein the rules of evidence do not apply.
4. You like to preach here about the multitude of witnesses who will testify about LK’s character. Do you not think the prosecutor has at least as many witnesses who have come forward to speak about MB’s violent, erratic temper and how they lived in fear of him while working for him or training with him? People who immediately thought, “thank God MB’s ex wife, Vera, got out alive. People who heard about the shooting and immediately thought…” there but for the grace of God go I."

In my opinion none of those witnesses ON EITHER SIDE should be admissible. People hate LK, people hate MB. So what? The jury’s job is to determine what happened on 8/7/19…not to be prejudiced by stories about either the plaintiff or defendant’s character or popularity.

I have no idea who or what the judge will allow…but you can be sure for every anti LK witness there’s an anti MB witness.

Happy Holidays, Merry Christmas to all

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