I’ve only seen that applied in cases where someone leaves an unsecured gun where there are children. Otherwise, a gun owner cannot reasonably know that an adult will take and use their gun for murder. Of course if they handed him the gun and plotted a murder with him, then that would be another story.
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For someone who constantly rails against other’s theories of what happened, you’ve made some pretty serious assumptions here.
The fact is no one here knows for sure if anyone other than MB has been charged with a crime. No one knows who owned the gun or where it came from. No one knows any details at this point other than what was released by law enforcement (a presumably credible source) or the press (a not always credible source).
It seems to be okay when you present your theories that are not based on anything factual, but god forbid anyone else! Pot meet kettle!
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No not true, and the laws affecting child gun access vary wildly by state.
“Currently, 27 states and the District of Columbia have some kind of child access prevention law on the books. But only 15 of those laws impose criminal liability on people who negligently store firearms and should reasonably know that their guns are vulnerable to being discovered by a child, according to the Giffords Law Center to Prevent Gun Violence.”
"Massachusetts is the only state in the United States that requires firearms to be kept secure with a trigger lock when not in use.
In Florida, where the father of a 2-year-old wounded in an accidental shooting on Feb. 1 was recently arrested, state law stipulates that a person whose loaded firearm is discovered by a child may be charged only if he or she “reasonably should know that a minor is likely to gain access to the firearm” and fails to store the firearm somewhere a “reasonable person would believe to be secure” or to secure the firearm with a trigger lock."
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New Jersey firearm laws are among the most restrictive in the nation. It is a “may issue” state and it is extremely difficult for the average citizen to obtain a permit to carry either openly or concealed. Most applications are rejected–primarily because the applicant cannot prove a justifiable need–so very, very few NJ residents have permits (only about 0.01% of the population have been granted a NJ permit).
NJ also does not have reciprocity with other states, so if RC did not have a New Jersey permit for the handgun, then yes, she would very likely have been cited for violation of NJ firearm statutes. That is assuming she is actually the owner of the handgun used by MB. (Wasn’t LK alleging at some point that the handgun could have up to eight owners?)
Also, there is a big difference between being cited or charged and being arrested. So was RC actually arrested and taken into custody? Wouldn’t there be an official record of that somewhere? (I haven’t looked, but others state they cannot find such a record.)
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This info is with regards to carrying a gun. Obtaining a permit to purchase a hand gun is not that difficult in NJ in my experience. I do not own a gun myself, but many of my friends and family do and they did not find the process particularly arduous. They did not apply for a carry permit only a purchasing permit. Carrying refers to physically carrying the gun on yourself at a place other than your property or place of business with exceptions also made for shooting ranges, etc, and based on what I’ve heard 3rd hand from those who’ve asked State Police other private properties where you have permission to be/shoot.
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Yes, the info I posted had to do with carry. I don’t think I have seen official information regarding ownership or where/when the handgun was purchased, however there is a gray area because even if RC had a purchase permit but did not have a carry permit, she may have been in violation if she was carrying it around or transporting it on the premises since she was an employee and not the business owner. Or perhaps she wasn’t transporting it in her vehicle in accordance with the statutes. For instance, if she admitted that the firearm was hers and that she sometimes (or regularly) took it with her in her vehicle but it wasn’t unloaded and in a secured case separate from the ammo, or she kept it in an unlocked case in the glovebox (even unloaded), she would be cited. We really don’t know at this point exactly what charges were filed against her so we will have to wait for more info to come out.
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@DownYonder I see where you are coming from. Thanks for clarifying. It seemed that LaLa is accusing in her suit that Barisone et al allowed guns on the premises. With 53 acres it would seem possible that either the owners and/or Barisone did allow specific people to shoot on the property. There is 0 information out there about an arrest, and it would have likely been mentioned in the recent news articles if it did happen, so I am doubtful she has been arrested.
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But there were children living with MB, weren’t there?Except that absolutely no one posting here has any idea where the gun came from or where/how it was stored. The only thing we know for sure is that at some point the gun ended up in in MB’s hand on the day in question.
I’m finding it very difficult to believe that anyone other than MB has been arrested up to this point, LKs insistence to the contrary aside. We’ve got people on here whose internet sleuthing skills, frankly, frighten me a little. Some of 'em should be working for Homeland or the CIA. No one has been able to turn up any record at all of an arrest.
I could come up with a dozen different plausible (wild and otherwise) scenarios for where/how/who owned and/or had control of the gun prior to the shooting.
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LKs civil lawsuit over the fact that the gun was on the farm had RC and a bunch of other people named as defendants. I assume (but don’t know for a fact), that that was to ensure that whoever turned out to own the gun was sued, even if it turned out not to be RC.
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The COTH threads showing what he was dealing with.
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Every farm I have boarded at had a gun (guns). Some were for hunting, shooting at coyote or stray dogs. One owners teen son made the mistake of shooting a skunk in the tack room … We wanted to shoot him! And the guns are there to put down a horse, if needed. I live 2 hours from an emergency vet so that might be needed.
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As I remember it, LKs “claim” was that RC had been charged, not arrested.
Thank you
@DownYonder
for the detailed information on NJ gun laws.
Re: the speculation that Barisone or the other owners allowed specific people to “shoot” on the 53 acre property:
Are handguns even useful for “shooting” pheasants and deer as opposed to people? I thought the whole revulsion toward handguns was that they were really only suited to shooting people at close range.
Also seems to me that Barisone or other owners would be running afoul of the NJ laws on handguns, as described by
@DownYonder
if they gave their permission for RC to have the handgun on the premises.
Remember that MB has been indicted on two gun charges having to do with illegal possession, above and beyond the attempted murder charges. The reason I found LKs statement that RC had been charged with gun violations plausible is that, given the charges against the user of the gun, it made sense to me that there would be reciprocal charges against the owner of the gun. But that is just what seems logical to me. I have not seen information from an official NJ LE source that RC has been charged with gun violations.The children were not there permanently. They shared custody with MH’s ex and were not there when the incident occurred. It has been rumored the children were sent back to their father due to the perceived danger they might have been in with the situation but I don’t know that is fact. They definitely were not in NJ.
As far as the 25 lb. dog…that dog had bitten RC several days before and bit a cop the day of the shooting. It was a known biter. It sure did a lot of damage to MB on August 7. Where is that dog now I wonder?
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What state do you live in? Were they handguns?
Does it really make a difference in this discussion?
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What assumptions are you criticizing me for, exactly? The statement that “negligence in not securing a gun” is a serious crime?
What would constitute negligence would vary state to state, but it still seems like a solid proposition to me.
With respect to charges against RC, I have consistently stated that LK has asserted that there were charges filed against RC, and that if people choose not to believe her that is 100% their call.
For myself, in my own little mind, I believe LKs assertion that RC was charged with gun violations. That is not speculation.
All others are saying there is no evidence on record of anyone else being charged other than LK’s statement. That seems strange to those following this. Believe what you will as all of us are doing.
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Yes it does. FDs statement would be relevant to the discussion if she lived in NJ and the guns she is referring to were handguns, and not relevant if she lives in some state with much different gun laws (especially, Texas) and if the guns were rifles.
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Why? She was stating that in her experience guns were common in a barn area. Are we going to debate gun laws at various states now? Once again, YOU are dictating what is and isn’t relevant to this discussion and going off on tangents that make no difference whatsoever.
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