Barisone Trial This Month

[rothmpp]

@CurrentlyHorseless

LOL. Dogs are territorial animals and their behavior depends on whether they are on what they consider their territory. Do you imagine the dog determined its territory by reading property records and leases? LOL.

No, but I do expect that the responsible parties for the dog has read the records and leases and does not allow their charge to intimidate or block access to parties with legal access to the premises. That party is responsible for either properly training such animal or properly securing an animal with marginal or non-existent training or tendencies for aggressive behavior.

We share an entrance to a housing unit? Your dog is not allowed to be “territorial” and block my access to my residence. Pretty much every public safety authority and insurance company will back me up on this one.

ETA - If you have not ensured that your territorial dog in under direct control at all times, d*mn straight I’m going to have something - pepper spray, a bat, a electric prod, maybe even a gun depending on the dog - to protect myself and family.

[OneBellBoot]

I’ve never commented on these threads before, but I have a professional interest in the case, as a forensic psychologist, and have been following along with the news since the shooting occurred.

I can’t speak for the judge on this case or this county, but I have participated in jury trials via zoom since the onset of pandemic related restrictions.

I will also say (of course noting that I’m not an attorney, but have spent a great deal of time as an expert witness) that I would be very surprised if testimony from people who have had negative interactions with the victim, but were not directly involved in the actions of the day of the crime, are brought in as witnesses. I have been instructed by attorneys to avoid speaking of events which are relevant to me as a clinician, but clearly have been disallowed from the testimony. So while I can’t speak to this case, in my experience, even if something is relevant to someone’s mental health it is not necessarily allowed as testimony.

[Knights_Mom]

@rothmpp

@CurrentlyHorseless

LOL. Dogs are territorial animals and their behavior depends on whether they are on what they consider their territory. Do you imagine the dog determined its territory by reading property records and leases? LOL.

No, but I do expect that the responsible parties for the dog has read the records and leases and does not allow their charge to intimidate or block access to parties with legal access to the premises. That party is responsible for either properly training such animal or properly securing an animal with marginal or non-existent training or tendencies for aggressive behavior.

We share an entrance to a housing unit? Your dog is not allowed to be “territorial” and block my access to my residence. Pretty much every public safety authority and insurance company will back me up on this one.

ETA - If you have not ensured that your territorial dog in under direct control at all times, d*mn straight I’m going to have something - pepper spray, a bat, a electric prod, maybe even a gun depending on the dog - to protect myself and family.

Or a Summons and Complaint for personal injury after the bite!

[hut-ho78]

So I guess the insanity defense is to bring his his past abuse and show he was so triggered that even though a responsible person would not find the situation threatening enough to shoot, in his mind and in that moment the threat was real to him. Then, if the threat is real in his mind, the shooting may be self defense.

That could be tough to sell. That plea bargain may have been a good deal. Plus, then is he committed to an institution until he is deemed no longer a threat to himself or others?

I guess witnesses for his state of mind when he drove over there will be on the list. Was anyone else scared and, if so, how much?

I don’t know how anything in her past would help much. What would people say? Testify she she can trash talk with the best of them? Everyone just went on that in this topic/subject a large number of the forum is trash talking.

Sure wish he waited until she had already agreed to leave or had her formally evicted. For him to say now that he was scared and shot her in self defense kind of contradicts that he never filed an eviction under New Jersey eviction laws which has an immediate eviction concerning safety.

Sure wish she left when it started getting heated. We’ve probably all either moved horses or known friends who moved horses or both in a day. Maybe it never was a thought to anyone that such a prestigious and well liked trainer could go off like this.

This whole situation is just sad.

Too much has been sad in horse sports and Olympic sports.

[soloudinhere]

@hut-ho78

That plea bargain may have been a good deal. Plus, then is he committed to an institution until he is deemed no longer a threat to himself or others?

Yes, generally, if you are found not guilty of a serious offense by reason of mental disease or defect, you are sent to a state facility, often for significantly longer than your penal sentence would have been.

It’s a risk, for sure.

[Angela_Freda]

@hut-ho78

a responsible person would not find the situation threatening enough to shoot

We don’t know what “the situation” was, in order to judge.

[Scribbler]

At this point I can’t even follow the debate here.

I just want to make a few points.

The “true crime” blog or YouTube video is an established convention, people comment widely and freely, but the novelty here is the victim getting into the mix. Many true crime chats are much more virulent agsinst the players than anything on COTH.

It’s evident to anyone who has followed the thread from the start that LK is a piece of work with a long history. Much of what she says online or in personal messages is either just not true, or exaggerated to the point it has little resemblance to the truth. This has been shown multiple times.

The fact that a respected trainer shot her is the mystery and the puzzle that keeps this case interesting. If she had been shot by an intimate partner or a drug dealer or a person in a bar after an altercation or in a road rage incident, we would never have heard of it or care. It would barely make a couple of paragraphs in the local paper.

Thus our fascination is: how does a respected established high level trainer end up doing this? What pushed him over the edge? Since MB’s team has wisely maintained silence outside of court hearings, we really don’t know. And honestly the trial may or may not give us an answer.

I think for most of us, the fascination is in the question of how someone suddenly does something so wrong, and so life altering. LK is not a mystery. We all know people on the LK spectrum, both IRL and online. If we’re savvy and lucky we duck them IRL and block them online before they dox us. If we’re unlucky or careless, we get drawn into direct conflict.

If we are very unlucky or make very poor choices, we can end up being the person who breaks the law. Just like in elementary school, in a situation of bullying or mutual taunting, the child who threw the first punch was the trouble maker sent to the principal’s office for discipline even if they were the clear target of bullying and intimidation.

Anyhow, much of these threads has circulated around the central mystery of: why did MB end up shooting? Thus all the background info has been very relevant, and LK adding her own voice to the mix has certainly reinforced conclusions drawn from other sources.

How does a shooting happen? What does it take to make a respectable established trainet make such a poor choice? And, once that choice is made, how will the law treat him? What defense is possible?

Last week I was following completely random bail hearings for Canadian trucker convoy fools. Very interesting, I learned a lot, and it drove home to me that you need to be a lawyer in that field, in that jurisdiction, and apprised of all the particular facts of that case, to be able to speak meaningfully. And of course the lawyers who are in that position are all extremely partisan, prosecution and defense. Obviously. So both are putting a big spin on things. The relevant document is really the judge’s decision, the precdent.

A lawyer in another field will have a better understanding of the process than a lay person but will likely be circumspect because they know enough to know what they don’t know. For most of us lay people, though, especially if we’ve watched too much fictionalized law and order on TV, we actually know nothing about the specific wording of law in any jurisdiction.

[eggbutt]

@hut-ho78

I guess witnesses for his state of mind when he drove over there will be on the list. Was anyone else scared and, if so, how much?

Well, scared enough they were sleeping outside their horse’s stall. Scared enough to call the keystone cops multiple times.

Yeah, it’s a real shame he didn’t wait 30 days or whatever for her to leave since the previous week or so had been a nightmare.

It’s really a shame LK didn’t leave when she was told to, or when she made her dramatic FB posts about how afraid she was…such a dramatic post that quite a few people offered to pick her and her horses up to get the hell out of Dodge. But that’s not LK’s style. It’s fight to the brutal end for what she wants…always.

So when this is over, regardless of the criminal trial outcome, she and daddy have said MHG is next. Sounds like a legitimate threat to me.

[OneBellBoot]

I’m sorry, I can’t seem to figure out how to quote on mobile, but hut-ho said:

“So I guess the insanity defense is to bring his his past abuse and show he was so triggered that even though a responsible person would not find the situation threatening enough to shoot, in his mind and in that moment the threat was real to him. Then, if the threat is real in his mind, the shooting may be self defense.”

If the NGI (not guilty by reason of insanity) plea hinges on a trauma-related diagnosis, I think this is a reasonable guess as to the defense’s approach.

New Jersey has a very stringent NGI statute from the brief review I did (more so than the state where I practice), so I will be interested to see how the defense witnesses frame the defendant’s functioning and mental health to meet those requirements.

I recall reading in a previous thread a comment from a poster that the defendant was diagnosed with C-PTSD, which will be even more fascinating to see how that is fit into an NGI defense. I don’t know the accuracy of that post and, of course, I’ve never met the defendant nor evaluated him, but the constellation of symptoms that are encompassed by C-PTSD could also fit with the broad strokes of the account recounted by the victim, from what I’ve read. I could see both the state’s and the defense’s experts agreeing on the diagnosis, if they did diagnose C-PTSD but using them to defend different scenarios.

[CurrentlyHorseless]

@Sdel

@RND

You could be right; without actually seeing the layout, and not being an expert, I have no idea what is or is not impossible in this situation. I still don’t see how any of this matters when the purpose of the trial is to determine if MB was insane at the time he shot LK and/or if he was acting in self defense.

Wow. You don’t see how independent physical evidence that may contradict an eye witness’ report of what happened is relevant?

A standard plain vanilla defense in which the defendant pleads “not guilty” is a negative defense in the sense that the prosecutor must proves all elements of his (the prosecution’s) case beyond a reasonable doubt and the job of the defense is to poke holes in, or “negate” the prosecutor’s case. OJs defense “if the glove don’t fit, you must acquit” was a standard negative defense.

I was wrong to say that the “affirm” in affirmative defense meant that the defense was explicitly affirming they committed the physical deed. Instead “affirm” is in distinction to negating the prosecution’s case. Instead, the defense is taking an affirmative stance in claiming a particular circumstance — insanity or self defense— which removes criminal culpability even if the prosecutor can prove his case on the physical act of the shooting.

The defense does not literally affirm the physical shooting. On the other hand, the defense typically does not bother disputing (or negating) the elements of the prosecutor’s case; instead the defense actively and affirmatively tries to establish the circumstance of insanity or self defense.

In a negative defense the defendant is presumed innocent until proven guilty, and the prosecutor has the burden of proof to establish his case beyond a reasonable doubt.

Based on what I’ve read, in terms of the insanity defense, the defendant is presumed sane until proven insane (in most states). In most states the defense has the burden of proof and the standard of proof to establish insanity is by a preponderance of the evidence. In some states it’s the higher standard of by clear and convincing evidence.

[hut-ho78]

Good call on the CPS since there was a shooting on the premises that day.

Other stressors would be divorce, assets split, loss of income and barn management skills from prior spouse, girlfriend leaving, the ice damage, only one egress from the basement causing the apartments there to be evicted, and others.

Dog-I thought there were 2 dogs, the little yappy biter that the police officer ignored and a larger friendly young dog?

[Knights_Mom]

@Scribbler

At this point I can’t even follow the debate here.

I just want to make a few points.

The “true crime” blog or YouTube video is an established convention, people comment widely and freely, but the novelty here is the victim getting into the mix. Many true crime chats are much more virulent agsinst the players than anything on COTH.

It’s evident to anyone who has followed the thread from the start that LK is a piece of work with a long history. Much of what she says online or in personal messages is either just not true, or exaggerated to the point it has little resemblance to the truth. This has been shown multiple times.

The fact that a respected trainer shot her is the mystery and the puzzle that keeps this case interesting. If she had been shot by an intimate partner or a drug dealer or a person in a bar after an altercation or in a road rage incident, we would never have heard of it or care. It would barely make a couple of paragraphs in the local paper.

Thus our fascination is: how does a respected established high level trainer end up doing this? What pushed him over the edge? Since MB’s team has wisely maintained silence outside of court hearings, we really don’t know. And honestly the trial may or may not give us an answer.

I think for most of us, the fascination is in the question of how someone suddenly does something so wrong, and so life altering. LK is not a mystery. We all know people on the LK spectrum, both IRL and online. If we’re savvy and lucky we duck them IRL and block them online before they dox us. If we’re unlucky or careless, we get drawn into direct conflict.

If we are very unlucky or make very poor choices, we can end up being the person who breaks the law. Just like in elementary school, in a situation of bullying or mutual taunting, the child who threw the first punch was the trouble maker sent to the principal’s office for discipline even if they were the clear target of bullying and intimidation.

Anyhow, much of these threads has circulated around the central mystery of: why did MB end up shooting? Thus all the background info has been very relevant, and LK adding her own voice to the mix has certainly reinforced conclusions drawn from other sources.

How does a shooting happen? What does it take to make a respectable established trainet make such a poor choice? And, once that choice is made, how will the law treat him? What defense is possible?

Last week I was following completely random bail hearings for Canadian trucker convoy fools. Very interesting, I learned a lot, and it drove home to me that you need to be a lawyer in that field, in that jurisdiction, and apprised of all the particular facts of that case, to be able to speak meaningfully. And of course the lawyers who are in that position are all extremely partisan, prosecution and defense. Obviously. So both are putting a big spin on things. The relevant document is really the judge’s decision, the precdent.

A lawyer in another field will have a better understanding of the process than a lay person but will likely be circumspect because they know enough to know what they don’t know. For most of us lay people, though, especially if we’ve watched too much fictionalized law and order on TV, we actually know nothing about the specific wording of law in any jurisdiction.

As I’ve stated before there are so many nuances at play the outcome is impossible to predict. It might be a matter of untruthful testimony to surprising facts coming to light to the interpersonal dynamics between attorneys and the judge to local political motivations. Heck, a famous case on TV dove into bizarro land with a shriveled glove and a snazzy line “If the glove don’t fit you must acquit” even though every horseman in the world knows wet leather gloves shrivel, shrink and die.

[ASB_Stars]

@hut-ho78

I don’t know how anything in her past would help much. What would people say? Testify she she can trash talk with the best of them? Everyone just went on that in this topic/subject a large number of the forum is trash talking.

I wouldn’t know LK if I fell down across her, and most of the time, I cannot even remember what those initials stand for. I did not trash talk her, but she did send me along a threatening PM. Apparently, because I wasn’t saying “poor dear”, I was on her list. I am not OK with that.

I do have personal friends who have met her, and they have shared with me that they consider her to be a whackadoodle. Their acquaintance with her pre-dates all of this apparently.

Did she get shot? Yep! Did she do anything to provoke it? By all accounts, she did. Does that make it reasonable? Of course not, but we have no idea what the state of mind was of MB at that time. The jury not only is out- it isn’t even empaneled.

I’d say that the kind of responses that LK can and has caused rank way over someone who simply “trash talks”.

[hut-ho78]

@Angela_Freda

@hut-ho78

a responsible person would not find the situation threatening enough to shoot

We don’t know what “the situation” was, in order to judge.

I was making a point about the insanity part of the defense, which you must have missed. If a reasonable person would think this was self defense then they wouldn’t have to drag the complications of the insanity defense into it.

IANAL

[MHM]

@Scribbler

The fact that a respected trainer shot her is the mystery and the puzzle that keeps this case interesting.

I think this is the biggest question for many on these threads.

Here was someone who was smart and rational and successful and driven enough to get to the Olympics not once, but twice, first as a rider and then as a trainer. And over the span of several years in a sport that requires a tremendous amount of organizational skill and planning ability, to boot.

And that same person decided to shoot someone in broad daylight with tons of witnesses on the property, including the representatives from child protective services? How on earth did that happen?!? Or did it happen in a different way that has not yet come to light? Is a puzzlement, indeed.

[Knights_Mom]

@hut-ho78

@Angela_Freda

@hut-ho78

a responsible person would not find the situation threatening enough to shoot

We don’t know what “the situation” was, in order to judge.

I was making a point about the insanity part of the defense, which you must have missed. If a reasonable person would think this was self defense then they wouldn’t have to drag the complications of the insanity defense into it.

IANAL

I think we need to see how the defense works the defenses into this case. No defense is absolute until it is actually presented as a defense.

And I apologize if I’m not totally versed at internet abbreviations as language but is your final all in caps statement have something to do with anal? Oops nevermind someone told me LMFAO

HEHEHE

[MHM]

I Am Not A Lawyer, probably.

[hut-ho78]

@hut-ho78

@Angela_Freda

@hut-ho78

a responsible person would not find the situation threatening enough to shoot

We don’t know what “the situation” was, in order to judge.

I was making a point about the insanity part of the defense, which you must have missed. If a reasonable person would think this was self defense then they wouldn’t have to drag the complications of the insanity defense into it.

IANAL

Just making sure I’m not representing myself as a lawyer in a legal discussion, unlike some people. I learned that acronym on this forum.

[Knights_Mom]

Ha!! I just learned it now. On this forum!

I’m not a lawyer either. I just vacuumed under desks. Strangely, I still told lawyers what to do every day of my career when they wouldn’t know what to do or how to proceed with their case. Weird, eh?

[Sdel]

@OneBellBoot

I could see both the state’s and the defense’s experts agreeing on the diagnosis, if they did diagnose C-PTSD but using them to defend different scenarios.

The big take away statement from the article was that the prosecutions expert agreed something had bad had indeed happened that would cause a reasonable person some amount of fear….they just disagree on if MB blacked out. That could be a misrepresentation…but it seems to get the defense one step closer to reasonable doubt than if the expert thought MB was faking it like some people here like to assert.