Barn dogs- to doodle or poodle?

[Brookes]

Ran into a labradoodle in the feed store yesterday. I have never seen a more poorly conformed dog! Mixing two breeds without any type of standards is a complete crap shoot. No two puppies are going to look the same. Mixing health issues from two different breeds can turn into a very expensive crap shoot health wise.

There are hundreds and hundreds of fabulous purebred dogs to choose from. I can’t believe someone can’t find one of these hundreds of dogs that will suit their needs.

All you have when you breed a poodle to anything other than another poodle is a mutt, period.

Mutts aren’t healthier than purebreds, that is an old wives tale. Especially when reputable breeders are working their butts off trying to eliminate health issues in their breed of choice. Careful and selective breeding of purebreds is the best way to preserve a specific breed of dog.

If you want a mutt go to the pound and find a nice pup that will suit your needs. Don’t go designer dog. It’s too much of a shot in the dark that your new pup will be healthy. Anyone that is breeding designer dogs doesn’t give a good God damn about the quality of their pups. They are in it for the money and that is all.

No respectable breeder of poodles will allow any of their pups to be used for doodle purposes. There is a reason for this. No one wants to be associated with crappy dogs coming out of their lines. Especially crappy dogs that aren’t purebred.

Now Standard Poodles are amazing dogs. I have a friend who breeds and shows standards. Her dogs are lovely! They are sociable and very smart! I’m impressed with all the titles she has on her dogs. From conformation to obedience to therapy dogs, her dogs do it all. She keeps her older dogs in the puppy cut to make life easier for herself. They are adorable. Big fluffy goof balls.

[xeroxchick]

@SnortyPants

Putting in my standard exhortation to adopt and save a life. Greyhounds are amazing dogs that seem to fit the criterion you’ve listed. You can easily find unraced ones who were used as breeding bitches if you worry about them chasing too much.

All the dogs at the animal control in my area are pit bulls. I won’t have one, so adopting is a problem there. And I don’t want a gray hound either. Would love to save a life, but those lives don’t fit in. they just don’t. Not trying to be cold, but real.

[knightrider922]

I have three standards on a farm. I keep their coats short and honest they are easier to maintain than my border collie, don’t shed and are extremely smart. They are great on the farm, with all people yet are big enough to bark loudly and some are pretty protective. I’ve had one that was prey driven but only for birds and deer. Great great dogs. The doodles are not being bred well and you get the worst health issues from the breeds… go poodle all the way!!

[sophie]

I’ve always been a mutt kinda girl…until I got my first standard poodle. She far out performed all the dogs I’d known before her. Smart, well behaved, sensitive, off leash all the time (most days I didn’t even put her collar on), great with horses, great to take trail riding with me. It was so easy to train her, it didn’t even feel like I was training her. Just tell/show her things once or twice, and she’d retain them. I adored her, she really was the perfect dog, and still miss her.

My current Std poodle came to me as a 3 yo, and we’re still working on training, but she’s getting there. She is smart and quick but has her own mind at times. She’s got a great sense of humor and loves to learn new tricks.

Grooming-wise, it’s a pro-groomer every 2 months or so, I keep the coat fairly short with trimmed paws. I don’t like a shaved face so the groomer knows to do a “mustache cut” for me

I never understood the “doodle” thing, when Std poodles are such great dogs.

[Sugarwells]

Team Poodle all the way!!!

[luna17]

@vxf111

Why would someone take a 10-15 inch dog (miniature poodle) and breed it to a much larger dog (standard poodle is 18-24 inches, golden is about that)? That’s just asking for trouble. That’s quite a lot of mixing of phenotype there. I don’t know how you can expect much consistency?! And by the time you’re 3/4 poodle, doesn’t that beg the question why “why not get a poodle?”

[soapbox]

The whole point of crossing back is to get the traits of that breed… so if you mixed a poodle and a golden, and it’s not poodly enough for you… rather than add more poodle… why not start with a poodle?

We preferred the puppies with the golden than the pure poodle puppies. They’re purely companion dogs, they’re a great size, very cute, and are very people oriented. That’s what we wanted. If that doesn’t float your boat, fine, but it’s not your right to condemn my ownership of doodles because you don’t like the breed. Are they perfect? No. Would the shelter dogs we would have otherwise gotten been perfect? No. Our rescue dog before them was an unknown crossbreed who came up with a whole number of issues, none of which we had any baseline for because we didn’t know his parentage at all. At least if ours seem to display any issues, I know the breeds that make up their background and can start by looking into any problems with those breeds. And yes, we looked at shelter dogs. We could not find one that suited our family due to our location ( lots of pit bulls in our area) and needs- a smaller dog with a people-loving personality that wouldn’t bother the horses, guinea pigs, and other myriad animals, and that would put up with idiocy from young children in the family and neighborhood. I’m sorry that doesn’t align with your beliefs, but that’s what worked for our family.

[vxf111]

<<they’re a great size, very cute, and are very people oriented>>

Also describes poodles, and many many other dogs.

I’ll never understand paying for a mutt with criteria like that (which could be so easily met without supporting people who you know are in it for the money because anyone in it for the love of dogs picks a breed and gets serious about improving it).

<<If that doesn’t float your boat, fine, but it’s not your right to condemn my ownership of doodles because you don’t like the breed. >>

ITS.NOT.A.BREED.

And for the record, I didn’t condemn it. I said I didn’t understand it. And I don’t. I understand people with loose criteria who would be happy with a mutt. I get people who have stricter criteria and seek out (and pay for) purpose bred dogs of a certain breed). I don’t get people who want to pay for what is essentially just a mutt. A mutt with a fancy name, but a mutt nonetheless.

[S1969]

@vxf111

ITS.NOT.A.BREED.

And for the record, I didn’t condemn it. I said I didn’t understand it. And I don’t. I understand people with loose criteria who would be happy with a mutt. I get people who have stricter criteria and seek out (and pay for) purpose bred dogs of a certain breed). I don’t get people who want to pay for what is essentially just a mutt. A mutt with a fancy name, but a mutt nonetheless.

A miniature poodle x golden doodle is a straight up mutt. It’s not even remotely close to a “breed” because “golden doodle” is a mix as well. Even if a group of breeders had a deliberate reason for changing a breed - this particular example is not a breed. You would never cross a cross…

This is just someone selling puppies for cash. Probably without any health clearances or selection methods. Except wanting to make money.

I condemn cross-breeding. It’s the bane and shame of purebred breed clubs. My breed club works hard to preserve and maintain the quality of our breed. We have internal issues - some of our own breeders would like the breed “a little bigger” or “bigger running dogs” for competition reasons and there are known cases of cross-breeding but registering the dogs as purebred. Then there are idiots out there actually openly crossing breeds with no shame whatsoever.

The vast majority of people breeding these crosses have no idea what they are doing - they don’t start with quality dogs, don’t conduct appropriate health tests and have no “end game” that they are striving to create. They are just pumping out franken-puppies and pretending that they are “breeders.”

And sadly, for some reason American people are willing to pay for them - and actually pay more than well-bred purebreds.

:no:

[Bluey]

The reason we have the specific domesticated animals is because someone, somewhere, bred like to like until it had a steady genetic pool that would reliably get like.

That is what nature thru environmental pressures does to species.
It makes them the best for the task at hand, culling those that are not working models from the gene pool.

Humans do the same, but with a specific purpose for the traits we choose.

If we want to keep those traits, as breeders we need to keep breeding within those that have those traits, why keeping breeds pure is important, so we have those “purebreeds” to bred from.

When we cross breed horses, dogs, cattle, you name it, we lose consistency, that pool of genes that defined that breed.
We then have in crosses again a genetic unknown, way more diverse mix of genes than purebred is, making it much harder to know what you may get from those crosses.

Genetically, it doesn’t make sense to cross bred if we want this or that trait, consistently, to show up in the offspring.

We are free to breed any we want, to buy any crosses of those breedings, but that is what they will be genetically, a haphazard cross.

Will any cross of any species be a “good” animal?
That is subjective to who owns it and what they want from that animal, no different than any purebreed.
What it will be genetically is “unique”, won’t reproduce true to itself.
You can always clone it if you want another one like that.
If bred, it will still be a genetic gamble which genes you will have show there, why we prefer purebreeds as breeding animals.

[S1969]

I’ve always found a weird disconnect on COTH between horses and dogs. People are far more willing to accept things with dogs that they would never condone with horses. The “adopt don’t shop” mentality only applies to dogs as most people would not go to Camelot auction instead of buying a well-bred horse. And a novice breeder creating “mini TBs” in their backyard would be blasted far and wide on COTH as irresponsible and indefensible.

[JustTheTicket]

@subk

…
He is the penultimate companion dog. …

.

:lol:

Penultimate means second to last, not super ultimate.

Back to your regularly scheduled programming.

[PhoenixFarm]

@S1969

Sounds like this doodle is exactly as “unpredictable” as has been described, though. The coat, which is supposed to be the sole reason for the breed - is not noticeably different from a golden retriever.

The temperament might be breed related, injury related, or totally unrelated. But not specifically predictable, as is the goal with a purebred dog breed.

I’m not against “mutts” - most of them are great dogs. The point of the argument, though, is that a “doodle” of any type is not necessarily any more predictable (in terms of coat, size, health or temperament) than the average shelter mix.

So, because I feel like some clarification is necessary. This doodle is a 5th generation cross, but my sister picked him because he wasn’t too poodley. She wanted something more golden like. If she’s wanted more poodle she could have, within the litter the coats were clear. Also the breeder did temperament test, and he’s a great dog. She’s been breeding for 20 years, and we had met several other of her dogs she had sold. And yes, I’m confident the spooky bit is related to his vision because it’s all related to visual things—say garbage cans being moved. He does not spook bark at people, noises, etc.

at the end of the day I don’t actually care about this that much, I’m a dedicated Doberman girl, and wouldn’t have picked this dog for myself. But, I expected this dog to be a disaster and frankly he’s been incredibly easy and sweet. Just offering the view point that they aren’t all disasters.

[S1969]

@PhoenixFarm

So, because I feel like some clarification is necessary. This doodle is a 5th generation cross, but my sister picked him because he wasn’t too poodley. She wanted something more golden like. If she’s wanted more poodle she could have, within the litter the coats were clear.

Of course it’s not always a disaster - nor are the mutts in shelters. Just because a dog is a cross-breed doesn’t mean it isn’t healthy or nice. It’s the fact that the inherent traits that define a breed are not predictable and stable.

What you’re saying is that you don’t know what coat type you will get in a breeding, even after 5 generations. Isn’t that why the breeds were supposedly generated - to provide a poodle like coat to other breeds. But if, after 5 generations - some of them are not poodle-like…what is the point of crossing these two breeds? If you want a golden retriever coat - it’s pretty easy to find in golden retrievers.

So if the coat isn’t fixed after 5 generations, what other traits are also sort of unpredictable? Size, conformation, temperament, health, prey drive, etc. This is the point of breeding “purebreds” - for these traits to be predictable. And I condemn a lot of purebreed breeders too - breeders that don’t select properly and eliminate dogs that don’t conform (by health, conformation, temperament, etc.) from the breeding pool, are equally bad…sometimes worse.

Out of curiosity, what were the “poodle traits” she was looking for, but didn’t want the poodle itself?

[CiegoStar]

@S1969

I’ve always found a weird disconnect on COTH between horses and dogs. People are far more willing to accept things with dogs that they would never condone with horses. The “adopt don’t shop” mentality only applies to dogs as most people would not go to Camelot auction instead of buying a well-bred horse. And a novice breeder creating “mini TBs” in their backyard would be blasted far and wide on COTH as irresponsible and indefensible.

I’ve thought about this a lot actually. I think the difference is what we expect from the animals and in the cost of keeping them. At least for those of us who compete, a true rescue horse (not merely off the track which is not usually a rescue situation) is extremely unlikely to be suitable for our riding goals, and will cost too much to keep just to rescue, unless you have a farm where you can collect them.

Dogs for the most part are just companions. If you just want a companion horse, then a rescue should suit just fine.

[S1969]

@CiegoStar

Dogs for the most part are just companions. If you just want a companion horse, then a rescue should suit just fine.

Companions that live in our homes for many years, with our families and often with children. So, predictable health and temperament is pretty important, at least I think so. My last dog lived to be 16. That’s a long time to live with an animal that you find unsuitable to being a “companion” after the fact. Which is why many dogs end up surrendered at shelters.

Then there are all of us that compete with our dogs, and yet we still hear “adopt don’t shop.”

[Bluey]

@CiegoStar

I’ve thought about this a lot actually. I think the difference is what we expect from the animals and in the cost of keeping them. At least for those of us who compete, a true rescue horse (not merely off the track which is not usually a rescue situation) is extremely unlikely to be suitable for our riding goals, and will cost too much to keep just to rescue, unless you have a farm where you can collect them.

Dogs for the most part are just companions. If you just want a companion horse, then a rescue should suit just fine.

Those of us that have spent decades training and competing in obedience, agility and herding know how important breed and bloodlines are to their dog’s talent and aptitude at being good at what you do with them.

The same with horses.
No one is going to pull their mystery bred gelding out of their backyard and run him in graded races and expect to do any good, is not how breeding the best for a task works for the purpose at hand.

For a pasture ornament horse, for a couch potato dog, then we look for other, disposition probably first, so the individual is easy to live with under those conditions of idle paws and hooves, compared with working partners of performance horses and dogs.

People that are not breeders or very involved competitors won’t need the finer tuned individuals bred for specific tasks, but it is nice even for them to know their dog will reflect being bred to be what they liked in the breed involved, why they bought it.

There is a learning curve to all in life, knowing about animals, breeds purpose of breeding, which task each breed is good for, all that takes time to learn and put in perspective and work with to make the animal you get be what you want it to be.
Cross breeding in general is missing the point of what breeding is meant to accomplish, that consistency of genes we know an established breed will give us in the offspring, not the randomness of crosses.

[subk]

@JustTheTicket

:lol:

Penultimate means second to last, not super ultimate.

Back to your regularly scheduled programming.

I’m so happy I could aid in the feeding of the gammer nazis. Someone has to make you feel useful!

[JustTheTicket]

@subk

I’m so happy I could aid in the feeding of the gammer nazis. Someone has to make you feel useful!

Lmao. You used the completely wrong word. That’s not me being a grammar nazi, that’s you using big words that you don’t actually know the meaning of. Unless your dog was actually the second to last companion dog, then I stand corrected.

[Djones]

The dog snobbery is tiring. Get the dog you want, someone somewhere will tell you that you got the wrong one, the wrong way, regardless.and I believe that I read about a very succesful haflinger and qh cross in dressage in this month’s usdf connection.

just get your own superultimateous doggie

[S1969]

@Djones

The dog snobbery is tiring. Get the dog you want, someone somewhere will tell you that you got the wrong one, the wrong way, regardless.and I believe that I read about a very succesful haflinger and qh cross in dressage in this month’s usdf connection.

just get your own superultimateous doggie

Just to be clear, though - we can still be horse snobs, even if it is possible that the occasional grade horse can be successful?