Barn Owner Use of Boarding Horse

[miminorthwest]

Hey, I’ve got an interesting situation I’d be curious for some feedback on. Now I have a friend (really, it’s not me) who has a lovely gelding that her kid occasionally rides, but he’s a bit old for the discipline of preference, so the gelding is boarded at a small barn and my friend and her kid come out and occasionally ride him or lesson on him. Sounds fairly normal right? Well the predicament is that the barn owner and friend have gotten into a sort of arrangement where the barn owner uses the horse for a lesson program on occasion and also just uses horse for enjoyment occasionally. I think this use of horse should be compensated. Any barn I’ve been to I pay to use a lesson horse, or I pay a partial lease if I’m not actually riding my own horse. My friend feels backed into a corner that if she doesn’t comply, she could be asked to leave, but also the barn owner will do little things here and there for the horse and my friend, which my friend could easily do herself or pay for, but this dynamic has been created where in exchange for these little things like turn out (they just live in paddocks so turn out to pasture is not included) my friend could do herself or pay for. So basically they haven’t communicated properly or set expectations/boundaries. I know how I would confront this, but how would you broach the subject of offering the barn a paid lease on the horse for X amount of days a week so they can continue to use the horse, but also so it’s fairly compensated.

It’s been framed to my friend that “it’s good for your gelding to be used in my program”. Ha! I’d say pay up or stop using my damn horse, but how would you tell your friend who feels immense guilt over saying anything. The horse community she’s involved in can be very harsh, but also sets firm boundaries for themselves while simultaneously taking advantage. I’d like to show her the responses here. TIA!!

[MadTrotter]

Not your circus, not your monkeys. I assume you have given your friend info on how these arrangements usually work. Beyond that, it’s on her to enforce boundaries around her horse. Also tell her to get another place lined up.

Edit: I’d also add, that for every lesson this barn owner admits to, double or triple how often the horse is actually being used!!

I personally wouldn’t put that wear and tear on one of my honest, older horses unless I really needed the $$.

[miminorthwest]

Totally agree. Barn can pay for a partial lease, then they don’t have to lie about how often they are actually using him.

It’s mainly easy trails and lots of inhand lessons, I think that’s why the barn owner doesn’t think they should have to pay to use horse because it’s not mounted, but still, they are making money OFF the horse which my friend in turn pays top dollar to board.

[wsmoak]

If your friend doesn’t want to be confrontational, blame it on the insurance agent. If a lesson student gets hurt, the owner of the horse is potentially in the crosshairs for liability. And if there’s nothing in writing such as the barn owner officially leasing the horse and stating that as an expert in the business they find the horse suitable for this use (or whatever your lawyer advises to put in the contract) then… I would not do it.

[2DogsFarm]

While @MadTrotter raises a possible point, what shape is friend’s gelding in?
You say “a bit old for discipline”
To me that leaves a huge gray area that requires more info.
Is the horse physically able to perform whatever the chosen discipline?
Just not as young as some doing the same?
Not competitive or unsound?

If sound, then being used in lessons could be beneficial - or at least harmless -if owner & kid have moved on to something younger = more acceptably competitive.
Is horse showing any sign of misuse or unsoundness that can be related to the BO’s use?
Is care, aside from use by BO, good?

I’d expect BO to share cost of shoeing, vet, other routine care.
But, if this arrangement was not agreed at the outset, could be a problem getting BO to agree now.

What does BO do - other “little things” you mentioned - for horse that is outside of contracted board arrangement?

ETA: @wsmoak makes a very valid objection to the arrangement that I had not considered.

Need more details before I make any other response.

[miminorthwest]

Good points. He can’t jump anymore, and the kid does low hunters, but he’s totally sound for trail and flat work at w/t/c, doesn’t need to be retired totally just yet, but benefits greatly from the exercise and the liberty stuff for sure. But yeah, I think it’ll be hard sell to get BO to pay for what they once got for free and made good money on.

The little things are like turn out on occasion and hold for farrier. At my barn I would have to pay to have someone hold for farrier which is totally fair I think, but the little things don’t add up to 4-8 hours a week of lessons and clinics.

[wsmoak]

Another angle: the barn owner may feel that it is unfair for the horse for them to show up occasionally and ask an unfit horse to work.

I used to ride at a hunt barn, and there was a rule that if you were not riding during the week, then you had to have someone exercising your horse or else it wasn’t going on the trailer for foxhunting on the weekend. The barn owner had no desire to deal with the tying up and other injuries if an unfit horse was taken out hunting. In practice, that meant the horses were getting used in lessons or being half-leased by the pony clubbers.

So she may well be asked to leave if the horse’s management does not fit with what the barn owner believes is correct. her barn her rules.

At least three sides to every story right?

[atr]

If horse owners are only going out “occasionally” to ride the horse, then they should also factor into their thoughts that at least the horse is being groomed, looked after and kept up in their absence. They might well have to be a lot more present in its life if they end this arrangement, or be prepared to pay extra for the extra care.

Most “Top dollar” barns are going to require more than a minimum standard of care for a horse on their property.

I see wsmoak and I had the same thought at the same time!

[miminorthwest]

Really valid points and yes I believe the BO feels like keeping the horse in work is great for the horse period, and it is. Definitely philosophies as odds here.

They go out a few days a week and help around the facility with the odd chores, so they are there more than say the one time a month boarders. So that’s why I kinda feel they are being taken for a bit of a ride… pun intended.

They just aren’t necessarily riding more than a couple times a month.

[enjoytheride]

Totally disagree with this.

A little kid plopping around on a horse once a week or even once a month is not the equivalent of galloping through varied terrain for 4 hours. He will be just fine farting and rolling in the mud in between. The barn owner is making money off this horse, not doing the rider a “favor.”

[miminorthwest]

Yeah for sure. It’s a very small private facility and “rustic” so none of the amenities you’ll find in the larger nice barns, but it’s top dollar because that’s what the BO charges due to hay prices, so my friend has been helping out a little to be nice. So other barns in the area charge the same but have all the amenities you’d want for a big city barn. So rustic: but big city prices.

[erinmeri]

My question would be is the horse, if not ready to be retired, one that needs to get out and stretch its legs and be ridden/handled more than just occasionally to keep it fit for the occasional ride and to keep its mind sound? Or is it perfectly happy being left in a field and ridden only occasionally? And would this friend have to pay for pro rides/services if the horse were not used for lessons?

My horse is one who needs a job. She wouldn’t be rideable if she was only occasionally ridden. She would be a total nut (read: dangerous) and would be physically unfit for said occasional ride or lesson. Maybe that is a fine arrangement for this horse, but not for a lot of horses. I would worry about my mare’s physical and mental soundness under such an arrangement. I would rather she retire than be asked to just do an occasional ride or lesson.

That said… Eight lessons a week sounds excessive, and I would not agree to that for my horse, but four per week might be reasonable if it keeps horse active and looked after… and it might not be a huge amount of wear and tear.

In my experience, if I don’t show up consistently, I have to pay for others to do the work in my stead. An occasional ride by other boarders or working students is one thing, but I can’t expect freebies on the regular (read: most days every week, which is what it sounds like your friend may need if horse needs to be ridden). Then again, I have only boarded at show barns.

Depending on the circumstances, maybe the BO/trainer should be discounting board or sharing in vet/farrier, or maybe paying a lease fee, or maybe it’s a fair deal.

Keep this in mind: Most lesson horses have to pay off their board, feed and care each month before the trainer giving the lesson can even make a dime off of the lessons. Just because the trainer is the barn owner doesn’t mean that the horse lives for free. And lesson horses aren’t really a cash cow if you care about horsemanship. The reason you pay to ride a lesson horse is two-fold: one to feed and house and care for him, and two to put money in the pocket of your trainer to do what you are actually paying for in the lesson: teach. The first has to happen for the second to happen.

I pay $5-10 (I forget!) less per lesson to lesson on my own horse. I am pretty sure that my lessons bank my trainer a lot more money than the ones she gives on a lesson horse. So it might not even make financial sense for the trainer to pay a lease fee to your friend. One trainer I know is not planning on replacing her last remaining lesson horse when he retires…

All of this is to say it isn’t so simple. And also - that being a barn owner or trainer isn’t a big money maker unless you are a BNT charging $4k+ per month. So, while I can understand your friend’s feelings, I also can see the other side (maybe… depending on circumstances).

[erinmeri]

@enjoytheride

Totally disagree with this.

A little kid plopping around on a horse once a week or even once a month is not the equivalent of galloping through varied terrain for 4 hours. He will be just fine farting and rolling in the mud in between.

A hunting horse is different than a stepping down low-level show hunter, I agree. BUT, you cannot say that he will be just fine. Each horse is different… and the OP said that the friend/daughter occasionally ride and occasionally lesson. How often is said occasional ride? I would not “lesson” on my horse if she wasn’t in work several days a week. Even a flat lesson. Hard nope.

[Libby2563]

The best way to have handled this from the beginning would be for the HO and BO to agree on a value for each use of the horse and to explicitly offset that against the fees for turnout, farrier holding, etc. Since that wasn’t done up-front though, your friend might find the BO defensive about any questioning of the current arrangement and resistant to changing it.

I would probably suggest the insurance angle as well. HO could say she was updating her policies and realized she needs a formal agreement for BO to continue using horse, and while they’re at it can they agree on the value of that and what HO will receive in return?

[miminorthwest]

Yeah these people aren’t showing at any level at this point and the horse was a former show horse, so does need the work. I guess my thoughts on it are that the BO feels like using the horse in their lessons is a benefit enough (and no one is jumping this horse, it’s all easy trail riding and liberty type work) to the horse, which I agree with, so that benefit having the horse have a job is compensation enough. I do kinda see how the BO is also making money off the horse (this BO doesn’t otherwise have a suitable horse for the type of lessons that are done) and so could stand to pay for that use. When I ride a lesson horse at my barn, it’s $65 a lesson and when I ride my own, it’s $50. That $15 goes straight to the owner of the horse (another boarder). My show coach does not keep a lesson string as it’s not financially beneficial.

[dungrulla]

The expectation at the barn I board at is if your horse lives there, it could be used at any time. The horses live out on 40 acres, get ample exercise, and are all well-mannered and happy. I don’t think there’s a horse on the property I wouldn’t be comfortable riding in just a rope halter and a pair of reins. The care is so good and my riding horses are so much happier and better behaved I actually moved them back there from my house and now they live there full time while the pasture ornaments live at home.

My oldie I’m a little too fat for is actually moving out a lot more comfortably and getting a lot less stiff when cold weather hits now that he has a person to ride him gently a few times a week.

The flipside is if I want to do something different, I can. I have lots of opportunities to ride my trainer’s training projects. I get lots of opportunities to ride the ranch horses. I’ve grown tremendously as a rider from this.

It all depends on your perspective.

[LazyA1]

I had this happen to me. Horse was at boarding/lesson barn to see if someone wanted to lease him. I was paying full board. I agreed for him to be lightly used in lessons for compensation to me. $30 per lesson at that time. Unbeknownst to me, trainer was allowing the mother of her kid clients to ride him at will. Not even in lessons. She was riding him in lessons too. She was getting a free lease ON MY BOARD MONEY. I pulled that horse out of there fast.

[erinmeri]

@LazyA1

I had this happen to me. Horse was at boarding/lesson barn to see if someone wanted to lease him. I was paying full board. I agreed for him to be lightly used in lessons for compensation to me. $30 per lesson at that time. Unbeknownst to me, trainer was allowing the mother of her kid clients to ride him at will. Not even in lessons. She was riding him in lessons too. She was getting a free lease ON MY BOARD MONEY. I pulled that horse out of there fas

Yikes, I got my horse 2.5 months after I came back to the sport, but if I recall correctly, I would have had to pay a fee to flat/hack said lesson horse.

[chestnutmarebeware]

If this was my horse, I would expect a contractually agreed on board discount for his use. And I would insist on being able to set limits on the number of rides and what could be done during the lessons.

All that would be in a signed contract.

[erinmeri]

@miminorthwest

so that benefit having the horse have a job is compensation enough. I do kinda see how the BO is also making money off the horse (this BO doesn’t otherwise have a suitable horse for the type of lessons that are done) and so could stand to pay for that use.

Sounds like it could go either way. Plus? Horse gets worked. Minus? Someone else makes money. But as someone who has been riding (thankfully! With gratitude!) 2-4 horses per day most days since I lost my job… it takes a LOT of time. As a rider with one horse, I am grateful for the opportunity. I am essentially a 40-something working student who gets saddle time. If I was a barn owner or trainer expected to exercise said horses gratis? Hard nope.