Barn Owner Use of Boarding Horse

[trubandloki]

@enjoytheride

But the BO IS making money off this horse in lessons. Someone else is paying for all the care and she gets to use it for free in her program.

It’s not relevant if she’s not charging enough board to begin with or if she’s upside down on her mortgage.

Like I said before. This is between the horse owner and the barn owner.

I don’t care if she makes tons of money or is upside down. The agreement needs to be between the horse owner and the barn owner.

I can totally see some situations where it is a strong plus for the horse owner for their horse to be used in lessons so they do not expect to be paid for it. I can also see why it makes sense for someone to get reimbursed for their horse being used in lessons. Both make sense if that is what the horse owner is OK with.
Neither situation makes the trainer evil or the horse owner evil.

This horse owner needs to sit down with their barn owner and discuss the situation. Figure out what works for them.
It does not matter what the OP thinks is best. It does not matter what we think is best. This horse owner and this barn owner need to talk.

[miminorthwest]

I said she was making money on the clinics, I never said BO was making money on board, YOU said that. You’ve been twisting it probably in an attempt to get spicy. Friend pays going rate for board. Not more, not less. These are separate issues.

[miminorthwest]

THANK YOU! Yes. Cost of board and training are separate issues. My friend pays all that. She also mucks stalls in exchange for little things like holding for farrier as it comes up and just on occasion.
Use of lesson horse is separate. It’s absolutely standard where we live that students pay extra to use a lesson horse, and that extra gets passed on to the owner of that lesson horse, whether it be a boarder, barn owner, or coach.

I think there are a few barn owners in this thread who are feeling defensive. No one is asking for free board. No reason to feel defensive. No one is getting mad at barn owners for charging for board or raising fees. However, there is a clear issue with a HO being sort of taken for a ride.

[enjoytheride]

Oh goodness. There is no resentment. You are stating that the BO deserves to use this horse for free because being a BO is hard.

I am stating that the BOs financial difficulties or lack there of does not justify this.

There needs to be a contract and the horse owner deserves appropriate compensation

[candyappy]

@BrendaJane

The OP has an issue with the BO ‘making profit’ off the horse, assuming there are riches to be made in operating a boarding barn.

If it was your horse and you were being taken advantage of I think you would be singing a different tune.

Nothing wrong in making a “profit” off of a boarders horse as long as the owner is fairly compensated. What happens if this good old guy is injured while being used? Is the BO going to pay for his vet care?

[BrendaJane]

do not put words in my mouth I have not actually said.
I have stated many times that this is an arrangement between HO and BO. Full Stop.

Get it right, will you.

To quote myself, this is what I said:

It boils down to the arrangement the horse owner has with the BO. Things change and the arrangement has to be revisited. Simple.

as many people have stated above, they had similar agreements with barn owners for usage of a horse.
It helps of course to spell out expectations one might have - literally, on paper - and have both parties agree/and sign.

In case the HO is reading: Talk with the BO.

[candyappy]

@erinmeri

I disagree. Board is for housing and feeding and cleaning up after a horse and caring for its basic needs. Training is for exercising it. OP’s friend does not consistently exercise the horse and expects to ride and lesson on it. Who does OP’s friend expect to keep horse fit, happy and in work?

Not the BO business if a boarder rides their horse or not. The boarder in question is paying full board and paying for any lessons they take on their own horse.

No way getting around the fact that BO should compensate the boarder for using their horse in other lesson programs.

[2tempe]

updating from my earlier post: First, OP, you are saying here that the horse is used “without owners consent”. However I read the earlier posts as yes owner knows, and BO is doing little things for HO that she might otherwise charge for - sort of offsetting.
I believe that this situation will be difficult to work out given where they’ve been up to now. But for sure horse owner should have a conversation, and if she’s seriously close to having to rehome the horse, perhaps BO would purchase or take on a long term lease (documented!) In any event this is a conversation that you dont start without 4 things: 1. A specific outcome that you want - ie $100 off board. 2. A specific idea of what you might accept - ie $75. 3. A clear sense of the value of the little things if she starts to charge you for them. and 4. A plan B for the horse if the conversation doesn’t resolve things. If things get uncomfortable or ugly you dont want to hand around an iffy environment. If you reach an agreement, document it.

[miminorthwest]

Yes, those are good points for her to start the conversation. I originally posted this so she could see various feedback. She is monitoring this thread. BO was letting friends ride said horse for fun, and she has since had a conversation with BO that these fun rides for BO owners friends come at a price now, and BO agreed and thought it was fair. Now friend is looking for a leasor for horse and has a couple people interested already. Once the horse is partially leased, then it will have a schedule that will likely coincide with BO clinics. I think she’s still cautious to ruffle feathers but is happy with the arrangement now, and so case closed. Lol

[swmorse]

Sounds like progress is being made. Hope she works things out so she and her horse are happy

[Impractical_Horsewoman]

I’m really glad she asserted herself (especially regarding the unpaid rides by the BO’s friends, which deserved to be compensated). The horse sounds like a steady, sweet old egg and I also hope she can find a good leaser to help offset more of his costs and be an advocate for him when she isn’t there.

You’re a good friend to be her advocate when she’s going through a rough patch when human stuff is hard enough, let alone barn drama!

[lenapesadie]

A lease seems ideal. HO can get some $, horse gets some use and it conveniently bumps these workshops off the table

[BrendaJane]

ah, very good.

[IPEsq]

So the above gave me another thought as a lawyer…there is in many situations the idea of implied consent. Which can sometimes be inferred by conduct. So, the longer things continue on, the more likely BO could assume consent from the owner because of her lack of objection. Not that I could see anything legally binding in this particular situation, but it would make the conversation more difficult and strain the relationship more the longer things go unchecked. It’s good that they’ve had a talk about some of the use. (BTW Fun rides for friends? Who does that? Major red flag!). I don’t think she should wait for a lease to create a conflict. She should still have the other conversation with BO now about the next clinic.

[BrendaJane]

thank you for the legal aspect!

[ponybutler]

Sooo many comments of this complicated situation, I don’t have much to add except: an older friend of mine allowed her Welsh show pony (she drives him, due to injuries to herself) to be ‘appropriated’ by the daughter of the B0 and her coach. They slowly moved him back into being a hunter pony, which he’d been when purchased from a top pony trainer/breeder in Ontario.

Alas, after about 6 mos of getting into intensive training, the 14 yr old gelding (never a lame day in his life) went totally lame. My friend footed all the considerable vet bills, and worry; the BO made no offer to pay or help pay, and pony was being used free of charge.

Eventually pony came sound, and they switched him to dressage. My friend has funds, and enjoys seeing her pony under saddle, but if it were me, I would have freaked at the vet bill, and not gone for a free deal with nothing in writing. The BO borrows my pony cooler frequently enough that I finally brought it home, and now keep most of my stuff in my car.

I owned and operated a small boarding stable for over 7 years, with about 7 key boarders there from start to finish; you didn’t borrow anything without asking, especially horses!! I’m happy to lend some stuff out, but what’s mine is mine unless I lend it out to someone responsible.

[Impractical_Horsewoman]

Wow, your post really loops back to that crazy dressage forum thread with the person complaining, “why must I pay for routine vet care when I’m full leasing a horse.”

[clanter]

@Angela_Freda

What if the horse gets injured while BOs friend us riding him?

adding to the What ifs, what if horse decides it has had enough and chucks rider into the wall or fence/pitches them off into the wild blue yonder or just falls on them? It is not the Barn’s horse even though it is being used by them in their riding program.

There needs to be a written contract between the barn and the owner stating the barn’s use with some consideration (compensation) to make the contract binding. Without consideration the agreement (contract) can be declared unenforceable in court.

So blame the need for payment on the court system or the damned lawyers

[Chief2]

HO’s first responsibility is to protect both themselves and the horses they own. Regardless of whether the HO chooses to deal with the BO or not on this, the very first thing I would advise is for her to put some liability insurance on this horse. Check industry insurance rates against the insurance that is included in a USEF membership and get protection.

The first people in line to sue over an accident involving a horse are the lawyers representing the medical insurance industry, trying to recoup the money they have paid out in medical/hospital/pt costs to treat someone who has been involved in an accident involving a horse. I live in the insurance capitol. There are many, many lawyers employed by the insurance companies who make their entire living (and it’s a good living) representing the insurance companies in personal injury claims. Their one and only job is to get all the money back that the company has paid out in a claim. They’ll check with the victim first to find out his/her side of the story after the medical community has filed its claims, and then the HO is the next one in the line of fire. If they can’t get it out of you, they’ll try to get it out of the barn. Comparitively speaking, the cost of liability insurance is a drop in the bucket compared to the totals paid out in these claims. I would do this in any situation where others are handling my horses for whatever reason.

I speak from experience, having been both the injured rider and the DPOA for my mother’s estate. In the first instance, the form my insurance company sent me to fill out after my accident made it clear that they were looking for someone to sue. That was followed up by a telephone interview, and then by a call from the same area code and telephone exchange twenty minutes later by someone posing as an RN, trying to dig deeper into my details, again looking to find someone to sue. In the latter DPOA instance, my mother’s insurance company’s lawyers called me following her hospitalization for a fall, trying every which way to find a way to sue my brother (her son, with whom she lived) for injuries she sustained in a fall in his home. In both cases I was able to derail the lawsuit. Your friend may not be as fortunate. She should also have a liability waiver signed by the BO for this same purpose. People are nice and friendly while things are going well. All bets are off once the medical bills start piling up, particularly if someone gets injured, can’t work because of it, and thus can’t pay their bills. That’s when they turn to personal injury lawyers to file a claim.

[RMJacobs]

I think @Chief2 gave a good assessment of the risk of not being insured. I got hit by a car while driving my pony–my own pony, on my own land, and my own stinkin’ car. It rolled down our steep driveway just as pony and I were coming up on the grass next to the driveway.

I had a lot of sneaky phone calls from my health insurance, trying to find someone to pin liability on. I wasn’t going to tell them my husband had parked the car at the top of the driveway–suing him is just like suing me. I was able to deflect all these inquiries and ultimately my health insurance did pay for treating my inuries, but it would have been easy to say the wrong thing and have them at least deny the claim.

Rebecca