Baucher in the Hunter ring?

[QUOTE=Synthesis;8299096]
Some people need an elementary physics class, as do many winter drivers…

Leverage: the action of a lever, a rigid bar that pivots about one point and that is used to move an object at a second point by a force applied at a third.
(A Baucher only has 2 of 3 required points for leverage)

Apologies for snark, this particular misconception drives me batty[/QUOTE]

This drives me crazy as well. So many show people don’t have the first clue about things like this, my guess is that the majority of people at the horse show won’t even know what a Baucher is. You also see people putting it on their horse upside down like a tom thumb…
I liked the baucher a lot on my fussy mare, but never showed hunters in it.

I’ve shown hunters for 30 years and have never heard of a Baucher. So I looked it up. Yes, that would be considered unconventional. You would prob be fine in a schooling show but not in a rated show.

[QUOTE=Synthesis;8299096]
Some people need an elementary physics class, as do many winter drivers…

Leverage: the action of a lever, a rigid bar that pivots about one point and that is used to move an object at a second point by a force applied at a third.
(A Baucher only has 2 of 3 required points for leverage)

Apologies for snark, this particular misconception drives me batty[/QUOTE]

THANK YOU drives me batty too. It would only have leverage if the reins were fixed at a point like this bit. Just kills me, even my trainer said it had leverage and I’m like NO NO NO take a physics class.

I’ve also heard people saying it produces poll pressure to help lower the head but if you actually put one on your horse and stick a finger under the bridle, you’ll find that it actually does the opposite when you apply pressure with the reins (or at least that’s what the action was on my horse when I tried one).

It’s a very mild bit but it’s also misunderstood by many, so it wouldn’t be something I’d risk using in the hunter ring unless there was no other option.

Wonder if a very short shanked pelham with a similar mouth piece Just ride the top rein Loop curb rein (ditch curb chain) Likely the same feel and the Hunter princess may not be any wiser!

Has anyone ever actually had a trip (or had a student have a trip) in which unconventionality of tack was clearly, obviously penalized by an R judge? A situation in which you could honestly say, “That trip of mine was irrefutably the best, or irrefutably better than that other guy, and the results don’t reflect it? It could have been nothing else but my, say, baucher”?

I understand that the rule appears, but what is “unconventional,” to some extent, will change over time and is inherently subjective. There’s also a fine line, IMO, between uncommon and unconventional. Pelhams, for example, are less commonly seen on hunters (least bit/lightest contact possible, etc.), but they’re clearly not considered unconventional. Many of us say these things (“It’s unconventional, you’ll be penalized”), but when the rule in question includes a subjective term plus an “et cetera,” I seriously doubt how many have truly and definitively seen the rule applied. After all, some would far prefer the “blame the baucher” game rather than acknowledging that their horse is unsuitable, the change was late or sticky, that one distance was a hair reachy so the jump was flat, etc.

[QUOTE=Night Flight;8299307]
I’ve also heard people saying it produces poll pressure to help lower the head but if you actually put one on your horse and stick a finger under the bridle, you’ll find that it actually does the opposite when you apply pressure with the reins (or at least that’s what the action was on my horse when I tried one).

It’s a very mild bit but it’s also misunderstood by many, so it wouldn’t be something I’d risk using in the hunter ring unless there was no other option.[/QUOTE]

IMO the thing that horses like about it is the lack of pressure and the stability in the mouth. Because it is hanging there is so little pressure on the bars. I think as more people become aware of it, it is becoming more popular. I did see a few in the tack store the other day, yet I had to look high and low for mine 5 or 6 years ago.

A baucher doesn’t have fixed rein position. A fixed rein position bit would probably go under “hunter gag” in the rule. A baucher does apply poll pressure in a similar manner to how a tom thumb pelham applies poll pressure. It does not necessarily lower the head but can also be effective for a horse who is heavy on the bit but has a soft mouth and thus may respond better to some poll pressure rather than something sharper in the mouth.

[QUOTE=IPEsq;8299408]
A baucher doesn’t have fixed rein position. A fixed rein position bit would probably go under “hunter gag” in the rule. A baucher does apply poll pressure in a similar manner to how a tom thumb pelham applies poll pressure. It does not necessarily lower the head but can also be effective for a horse who is heavy on the bit but has a soft mouth and thus may respond better to some poll pressure rather than something sharper in the mouth.[/QUOTE]
This is wrong. In fact it is the opposite of what a tom thumb would do, unless you install it upside down…

How so? The pelham attaches to a ring that is not the snaffle rein ring and keeps the bit positioned similarly in the mouth.

The Baucher does not have a shank or a ring below the bit ring. It does not apply poll pressure in any configuration. See post above about levers.

The reins on a baucher connect to the snaffle part; in other words the reins are not connected to a shank that is lower than the mouthpiece.

The baucher is nothing at all like a Tom Thumb, which is a real leverage bit.

A baucher does not apply any poll pressure. Indeed, it is the opposite: a normal snaffle with rings can possibly apply a small amount of poll pressure when the reins are applied, if it causes the rings to rotate around the mouthpiece. The purpose of the baucher is to prevent that poll pressure.

It is a dressage legal bit. I do not think it should be considered unconventional, but they are so uncommon that there’s a risk that a judge wouldn’t be able to tell what it was during the trip and would spend too much attention on it, or that you would be penalized intentionally or inadvertently. I’d probably make the effort to find a full cheek with a mouthpiece that matches the bit that works if I cared about pinning in the hunters.

Ok I guess I was wrong on poll pressure. I realize a pelham has more leverage and also chin pressure.

This video shows the no poll pressure part of a baucher but also shows the bit’s movement acts like a lever.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8MmikY9kRhI

[QUOTE=IPEsq;8299457]
Ok I guess I was wrong on poll pressure. I realize a pelham has more leverage and also chin pressure.

This video shows the no poll pressure part of a baucher but also shows the bit’s movement acts like a lever.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8MmikY9kRhI[/QUOTE]

“I realize a pelham has leverage and also chin pressure.” There, fixed it :wink:
The upper arm moves because the rein pressure slides the bit up the mouth, but the cheekpiece goes slack. Rotation does not equal leverage without 3 points of connection … like a teeter-totter

[QUOTE=IPEsq;8299457]
Ok I guess I was wrong on poll pressure. I realize a pelham has more leverage and also chin pressure.

This video shows the no poll pressure part of a baucher but also shows the bit’s movement acts like a lever.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8MmikY9kRhI[/QUOTE]

no it shows that the bit rotates not that it acts like a lever. It can’t be a lever there isn’t a fixed point for it to “lever” around.

you could sort of make it into a leverage bit by adding a curb chain to the top ring, which I have seen people do. Without that there is no leverage.

[QUOTE=phoenixrises;8299727]
no it shows that the bit rotates not that it acts like a lever. It can’t be a lever there isn’t a fixed point for it to “lever” around.[/QUOTE]

but the bit you posted (Beval Gag, Perfect Bit, Steel Loop, I’ve heard it called so many different things) is not rotating around a fixed point until it the ring has slid through the mouthpiece so much that it hits the cheek piece loop. :wink:

“Unconventional” is in the eyes and the brain of the judge.

I attended a judges seminar (Big time judges),

Some said they didn’t pay attention to the bit, unless the horse was resisting.

Others said they would ignore any horse that didn’t have a “plain” snaffle or pelahm, and, if there were “identical” trips, woud probably pin the snafle over the pelham.

[QUOTE=enjoytheride;8299816]
you could sort of make it into a leverage bit by adding a curb chain to the top ring, which I have seen people do. Without that there is no leverage.[/QUOTE]

Nope. Still no leverage. The chain might move, but it would never get tight.