Baucher method

Mbm again you are correct and it seems so rudimentary ? A horse does not need a rider to be able to use its back . As any loose horse can testify.
We believe we only need to duplicate this natural collection posture which I have described numerous times in these posts to bring the horse to being able to move like a glass orb on a flat glass table at the slightest aid of the rider . at that point the horse has come up to the bit itself . It is nothing we did with our hands to fix the back ,just yield the jaw to maintain the lightnes and position and impuslion… Further we are now riding MORE on the seat and the back ,HANDS ACT LAST and become more or less secondary, after this balance is achieved, a filter of sorts not a commander in chief . So Master Racinet called THAT " ahead of the leg and behind the hand " ( as is now practiced that collection requires two opposing forces of hand and leg ) to make a point and we come to that expresion.

By the Way what is contact in terms of weight anyway, one pound, two , ten , more ? Often this has a blind eye to how pliable the horse is, how great it is balanced and lisitening to the rider . As soon as this ambigous “contact” becomes TOO LIGHT it is then refered to as Behind the the hand by many ,NO CONTACT . A fly landing on a horse has CONTACT with him , as does a rider pulling 30 pounds and more on his mouth ,so you decide on the definition ’

People who have not been schooled in the jaw flexions and have not used them don’t understand that when done correctly all of that force that the horse was exerting against the hand of the rider leaves and is now available for IMPULSION which is why Jaw flexions increase impulsion not the other way arround . Reading baucher etc with no input fromsomeone doing it allthe time andwho was taught by other Baucherists maybe a long road you can shorten as I did by learning it from practicing Baucherists .

Here is a direct quote from Beaudant on the subject of the curb-snaffle choice and when he thought it was best used " "The snaffle is softer , it pains less than the curb ,ONLY WHEN USED AS A HALTER TO MERELY GUIDE THE HORSE .When it is substituted for a curb ,it is SEVERER than the later . I grant that in expert hands the snaffle readily destroys all resistances , but generaly , the mouth made with the curb is ready for the snaffle , while a lower jaw that gives to the snafle often resists the curb unles specificaly prepared for it . The reason for the soft mouths of horses ridden by Arabs is that their horses are always ridden with the curb bit . It is the exeption when one sees as Arab’s horse boring on the bit . IN TRAINING , IT IS MORE PRACTICLE TO BEGIN WITH THE CURB AND LATER TO CHANGE TO THE SNAFFLE " End of quote .

[QUOTE=princessfluffybritches;5047933]
:lol: Thankyou, that’s it. And what’s happened to it? Doesn’t it need to be preserved?[/QUOTE]

Preserved? Isn’t that what many dressage breeding programs do?

[QUOTE=alicen;5047260]
It is too bad, considering todays vidio access, that so many proponents of the French school of lightness offer only fleeting and enigmatic glimpses of their riding. Racinet here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2bNpT5wajps

I’m sure this erudite site has been previoulsly linked, but Mikolka’s article on Baucher is thought provoking: Baucher’s Methods
Karl Mikolka
After reading in Dressage & CT the series of articles on Baucher written by Jean-Claude Racinet, I am still very confused about his methods. Particularly I do not understand the meaning of riding with ’ hands without legs’ and ’ legs without hands’.

Did Baucher mean that one should train a horse the entire time by using either hands only or legs only, or did he mean that at the moment the rider does something with the legs, he/she should not do anything with the hands and vice versa? What are the major differences of training methods between Baucher and de la Gueriniere? I believe that the system of de la Gueriniere is the one followed at the Spanische Hofreitschule. If I am correct, why is it so?

When François Baucher ( 1796-1873) published his controversial book: Methode d’Equitation basée sur de noveaux principes in 1842, he believed strongly that he had found a system which makes all horses supple and obedient in a much shorter time than any other system before him. A good friend of mine, who is himself a trainer, explains the newly discovered popularity of some of the Old Masters by saying: " The longer they are dead the better they seem to be in the eyes of the general public." I must admit that my friend is right. What do we really know about the skill and equestrian ability of the equerries of long gone times? We can only trace their styles and methods through a few books which were published during their life time, or we can listen to the few eyewitnesses who happen to be around to see the masters in action. It is furthermore possible to form quite an accurate picture by listening to the pupils the masters left behind and by assessing the horses those masters made. We are therefore able to compile a few points of reference for evaluating their true horsemanship by what they handed down to the present generation of riders and trainers. François Robichon de la Gueriniere (1688-1751) stresses in his book Ecole de Cavalerie the importance of using sound principles in the education of the horse which must serve to perfect nature with the aid of the art. His guidelines from
the early stages of training to the airs above the ground were based on a deep love for horses and a thorough understanding of the natural development of the horse into becoming man’s best friend and most reliable partner. The development of quality gaits through suppleness and obedience was one of his main concerns. It was always a hallmark of the Classical Trainers to believe in the application of training methods according to the horses needs. With emphasis on ‘the thinking horse and the thinking rider’, they sought to avoid confrontation and resistance as much as possible and never forced their method as a doctrine or ‘straight jacket’ upon their horses, That is why Gueriniere’s methods have
survived the test of time and were adopted, cherished and cultivated at the Spanish Riding School for centuries up to the present.

François Baucher went through two stages in his life, the younger more aggressive, innovative years and the more matured time following his serious accident in the circus. In his nouvelle Méthode, Monsieur Baucher introduces the technique l’effet d’ensemble: a simultaneous use of hands and legs to eliminate the horse’s intrinsic strength and to replace it with the transmitted strength that comes from the rider in order to achieve balance and suppleness. In his deuxième manière Baucher speaks of ’ hand without legs, legs without hand’ implying the use of only one aid at a time. Some say this change of technique was the result of injuries sustained in the accident while others see it as an improvement of the nouvelle Méthode. But whatever it may be, modern dressage enthusiasts should not forget that Baucher’s methods were never approved of, not even in his life time, as being acceptable and valuable guidelines for the training of the Dressage Horse. Baucher’s method was rejected by many of his contemporaries, most of them highly regarded horsemen or equerries such as Count Antoine Cartier D’Aure, P.A. Aubert, M. Thirion and the Duc de Nemours, to name only a few.

Hilda Nelson’s excellent book: Francois Baucher, The Man and His Method is an impressive testimony to the myth and controversy to which Baucher contributed during his life. Here are just a few examples of what these men had to say about their much controverted contemporary:

Aubert remarks in his observations : ’ … the posture of Monsieur Baucher violates the laws of gravity and balance.’ ‘Baucher’s philosophy to overcome the forces and resistance of a horse by other forces must lead to failure. All horsemen agree that to combat force with force is the worst thing one can do…’ Aubert condemns the constant attacks with the spurs on the flanks of the horse and refers to a horse which has been subjected to Baucher’s nouvelle méthode as an ‘ambulatory cadaver.’ D’Aure describes the gaits of the horses schooled in the new method by saying: “….broken in their paces, uncertain in their movements, nothing is left of the paces of a horse…” M. Thirion, equerry at the Manege de Luxembourg felt that… ‘Baucher’s method is so full of errors and contradictions that it is not worth the effort of refuting it…’ In 1852 the famous and most esteemed German Riding Master, Louis Seeger -himself a student of Weyrother, published his little known book with the title: Herr Baucher und seine Künste. Ein ernstes Wort an Deutschlands Reiter: “Mr. Baucher and His Arts, a Serious Word to Germany’s Riders.” Baucher, who rode in the circus owned by M. Dejean, invited Seeger to come and observe his work and ride his horses. After having this unique experience, Louis Seeger decided to make his impressions about Baucher’s method public …“in the best interest for future generations of horses and riders” as he quotes it.

The first thing Seeger noticed when riding Baucher’s horses was the ‘total absence of energy in all gaits, especially in the trot which was the weakest gait.’ Unpleasant to sit and dead on the rider’s legs, the horses moved flat and on the forehand, hind legs dragging without ever taking a steady contact on the reins. With tails swishing and incapable of bending their hind legs, the horses produced a stiff picture in the canter especially in the changements de pied a chaque foulée-( changes a tempo- an invention of Mr. Baucher).

Mr. Seeger complained that all horses he rode were heavy on the forehand, moved with stiff hind legs and could not be collected. Collected canter was non-existing and the canter strides resembled more a ‘hopping rather than a jumping motion.’ The piaffe was executed with stiff hind legs and the horses stepped sideways and even backwards with little action in front but quite a high action behind while carrying most of the weight on the forehand. The passage lacked springiness and elasticity and Baucher was compelled to use quite visible leg, spur and whip aids to keep the horse going, contrary to the classical way of riding the passage in which the rider sits still and steady while the horse gives the impression of moving with great energy, cadence and flexible joints all on its own. The pirouettes were impossible to ride and the horses had the tendency to throw themselves around instead of turning gracefully.

Anyone familiar with Dressage and the requirements in FEI competitions must admit that Mr. Seeger’s analysis of Baucher’s methods and the judgement of his horses is not at all in agreement with modern FEI rules. I believe that Seeger, who had the on-hand opportunity to ride Baucher’s horses and to study his system, deserves to be more respected for his objective explanation of his experiences. Perhaps the modern prophets who persist in glorifying a system which failed already 140 years ago might consider the contemporary assessments of Baucher’s methods more seriously. Of course, those wishing to follow Baucher are certainly free to do so but should not expect great success in the dressage arena.

As far as I am concerned I must agree with the Duc de Nemours who said: “Je ne veux pas d’un systeme qui prend sur l’impulsion des cheveaux.” (I do not want a system which takes away the impulsion of horses.) 1. Do you?

Karl Mikolka

  1. Oddly enough, the same passage in Hilda Nelson’s translation of the same de Nemours’ statement reads: “I do not want a system that depends on the impulsion of horses.” François Baucher: The Man and His Method, pg.46. Or was it Clement Thomas, a staunch Baucher defender, who is purposely misquoting de Nemours?

© Karl Mikolka 1997 http://www.angelfire.com/sports/dressage/pages/Karl.html

From the website:[/QUOTE]

Alicen,

Thanks for the great post, and in response to your question,

  1. Do you? NO!:eek::no:

its interesting… the quoted material about by Karl Mikolka sounds very much like what the modern day rollkured horses look like.

in any case, there are some things that make sense to me in the baucher / french system.

and, as an open minded person i like to learn. and then i form an opinion.

thanks eagles for continuing to answer questions.

eagles wrote: Reading baucher etc with no input fromsomeone doing it allthe time andwho was taught by other Baucherists maybe a long road you can shorten as I did by learning it from practicing Baucherists .

And these practicing Baucherists would be whom?

also i wanted to add: i can ask my horse, at the halt, to raise her withers and take more weight behind. no impulsion needed. once she is in this posture then i can ask to to move off and she will be a much much more ridable horse.

this raising of the withers/shifting of the weight etc was never produced in this horse by riding forward. and i wasn’t the only one that failed at that. :slight_smile:

it took my 6 years of riding her to one day say “hmmmmm , what would happen if i did this even tho it is against everything i have been taught?” and bingo!

Eagles or anyone else.

A few years back I thought someone told me there was a book with artist plates of the “raising of the neck”.

I never discovered the name of the book or the author or if I did I have long since lost the info.

If anyone knows which book this is in I would greatly appreciate it.

As per this discussion. Unless you have had the great fortune to ride a horse brought on in a very light manner and had the good fortune to actually feel what it is like you will have little or no understanding of it.

Your understanding may be lessened by your own inability to ride a horse trained this way since it demands that you release your legs and the demands of your hands.

Prior to Katrina I had many, many books on most of the ODG’s which I had collected and studied over a lifetime. De La Gueriniere was probably the most influential of the lot for practical application. Pluvinel, Baucher, De Carpentry, Fillis all had valuable insights regardless. This argument has been going on forever!!!

I think for the rider the need for brute strength is greater in the German system and in the “other” a strength in balance and complete control over your body. I am not sure how easily or completely this is accomplished by everyone who chooses this agenda. I think the “classical” also demands a greater need for emotional strength while working with the horse. It leaves little or no room for petulance and anger.

I’ve read Baucher and if my memory serves me Fillis was his student. Since my books are gone, along with the highlighted passages, I can’t be totally accurate. However, I recall thinking some things that I read to be very harsh. Some things were of value. Could have been just the personalities involved or indeed the translation. Cannot be sure.

Excellent reading just the same.

[QUOTE=Blue Domino;5048354]
Alicen,

Thanks for the great post, and in response to your question,

  1. Do you? NO!:eek::no:[/QUOTE]

Oh, goodness, no. That wasn’t my question; that was part of the article. Wish I’d thought of it, though.

I have followed this thread with great interest. I continue to wonder why there is so much disparity and the feeling that there is not great value in the opinions and techniques of ALL the great horsemen who have been mentioned. I continue to believe the “modern system” is an holistic combination of all practical methods which have come before it. It is of exteme importance to remember that to correctly “flex” a horses jaw one must “relax” this jaw! If this is done well it will “relax” in concert, everything behind it. My friends, then you can “straighten your horse and ride him forward”. You can relax him into a forward and downward stretch. You can connect both sides of his mouth and keep the bit in front of his tongue. You can flex his jaw again with a halfhalt made with one rein and then reconnect both sides[bit in front of tongue],when his jaw is rendered relaxed,flexed. You can through the relaxed jaw allow him to stretch over the top to a gentle LDR position. You can ride back to front with a horse that has been rendered light through jaw flexion[jaw relaxation] while standing still. These things can all compliment one another and do not have to contradict each other. Good training is hard to do. But it does not have to be so complicated in concept and I believe the systems mentioned can compliment one another in the hands of an open minded and thoroughly educated rider.
Don Raphaelo Rollkurista

[QUOTE=alicen;5048333]
Preserved? Isn’t that what many dressage breeding programs do?[/QUOTE]

Probably, but then it’s the trainer’s responsibility to preserve it with correct riding, yes?

Without impulsion, how would you get correct trot transitions of collected-extended-collected? Without the horse ON the bit, how would you get a horse to learn a lengthened stride? Isn’t it desireable to have the horse follow the bit without being on the bit? Is there really a line of communication between horse and rider if the horse is not on the bit? If my horse comes off the bit, I feel like he’s hung up the telephone on me.

As for bits, I find that any bit can be used to teach, as long as your hands are soft and correct and welcoming communication.

Steinbrecht references jaw flexion repeatedly throughout his book. That he wanted to arrive at it while in motion does not imply he was speaking of something different.

[QUOTE=princessfluffybritches;5048513]
Without impulsion, how would you get correct trot transitions of collected-extended-collected? Without the horse ON the bit, how would you get a horse to learn a lengthened stride?[/QUOTE] This is a question that goes unanswered or if answered, there is no photo or video to back up the answer.

I don’t think there is any system that doesn’t agree that the jaw should be relaxed. What I think is that the Baucher style (and other French styles) are very much focused on high collection. You see photo after photo of piaffe and the airs, with a little sprinkling of shoulder/haunches-in. Where is the extended trot and where is the extended canter?

I have gone to the websites of P. Karl’s students. These are those that have graduated from his long program. The photos are not impressive at all, and I have to assume they are the best photos the rider has; otherwise why put them on the website. Just more mincing looking trot on small grade horses.

also, the concept of “on the bit” was never used before the translation of many books to English. )as i understand)

they would talk of on the aids, the horse working correctly with a lifted wither etc etc.

a horse can absolutely work correctly with the weight of the reins !

eta: a horse does NOT need to weight the bit to use its body correctly!

[QUOTE=princessfluffybritches;5048513]
Without impulsion, how would you get correct trot transitions of collected-extended-collected? Without the horse ON the bit, how would you get a horse to learn a lengthened stride? Isn’t it desireable to have the horse follow the bit without being on the bit? Is there really a line of communication between horse and rider if the horse is not on the bit? If my horse comes off the bit, I feel like he’s hung up the telephone on me.[/QUOTE]

also re: impulsion - where are you getting the idea that non german schools dont use impulsion?

eta: the bull fighting horses had huge impulsion!!! i would hazard to say far more than any german horse… :wink:

bah!!! eta again to say- impulsion is just energy contained and channeled and used to thrust the horse off the ground. it isnt solely the purview of the german school. to lengthen a stride the horse must be learning to put a bit more weight behind and to channel the energy forward… as long as the horse is using its body correctly it can be done without heavy weight in the bit

[QUOTE=princessfluffybritches;5048489]
Probably, but then it’s the trainer’s responsibility to preserve it with correct riding, yes?[/QUOTE]

Well, I certainly find it desirable. I would even try to illicit some schwung (with due consideration for any physical limits) from a horse who didn’t readily and obviously display it. But I’m just partial to soft, springy and forward.

ok, a short u tube search find me this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NtFm-1NT940

the inhand work is yes, smaller strides but that is so the handler can keep up. it is CLEAR that he is using piaffe to strengthen/weight the hind end , to build power and yes IMPULSION so the horse can channel it upward and forward.

the ridden work is lovely and shows great impulsion.

more

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJH-ozDH1uU&feature=related

there is also this which is am amazing example of how he uses the different exercises to build the weight bearing of the hind legs and how he focuses on one leg at a time.

it goes on too long in my book - i think the horse was done about a 30 - 60 seconds before he stopped.

but impulsion? in spades!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TfiTTyi2He8&feature=related

btw: the breed of horse he is riding has short high steps by nature. .and i think this is a bull fighting horse - so not a dressage horse per se.

[QUOTE=mbm;5048530]
also, the concept of “on the bit” was never used before the translation of many books to English. )as i understand)

they would talk of on the aids, the horse working correctly with a lifted wither etc etc.

a horse can absolutely work correctly with the weight of the reins !

eta: a horse does NOT need to weight the bit to use its body correctly![/QUOTE]

I’m not meaning weight on the bit, but I do need some connection with the horse via the bit, regardless of how light the contact is-when training. I can certainly see that if the horse is sensitive to the point of being feather light without being stiff or behind the bit, he is probably capable of not needing contact via a bit. But how would you keep the horse from getting behind the bit without a bit?