if the horse is using its body correctly it cant be “behind the bit” - i could be wrong in my understanding, but behind the bit is the horse retracting its mouth, etc and in that case correct work cant be accomplished.
eta, but understand i am only going by what i feel when i ride and i am not educated at all in the french school!
[QUOTE=ToN Farm;5048525]
I don’t think there is any system that doesn’t agree that the jaw should be relaxed. What I think is that the Baucher style (and other French styles) are very much focused on high collection. You see photo after photo of piaffe and the airs, with a little sprinkling of shoulder/haunches-in. Where is the extended trot and where is the extended canter?[/QUOTE]
Bingo!
And any stylistic discussion would be remiss without consideration for the types of horses being ridden.
As to the bullfight idea BRAVO that IS impulion and put any top Dressage horse in their and watch it get skewered .
Portugal maintained that REAL impulsion to keep the horses movments from the school as usful as they were intended ,not fake impuslion on the fore hand .
Jaw flexions are NOT just working on the frojt of a horse ,that is a statmenr in ignorance . In fact the flexion workds directly on the contracted part be it the back or hock. As Nuno siad the horses Hock is inits mouth . See Dr Deb Bennet for ALL of the Biomechancil and neurological ways the flexions work on the entire horse as well .
Having no desire to want to ride an on the fore hand run away, back breaking bone jarring locomotive horse is not cowardice , no more than I want to let my car roll over a cliff for the thrill on the way down would be a factor to indicate intelligence . I think on the contray the latter is on america’s dumbest video series show .
. Back in the day when horses were used in Battle etc this new type so called on the fore hand impulsion would not have lasted to long as the proponents would all be dead ,unles they stayed locked up in their classrooms as they now do Use all the Dressage Psycho bable to tell me it its not impulsion BUT Then the dead guy and the dead horse can proclaim ,and tell the world, BUT , BUT it WAS impulion (the bull did not read the latest definition very well I guess LOL) . I dont care about a thing else!!!
What good is the new impulsion if it had NO use in the REAL world outside of a made up ring with letters ???
Karl ,isn’t that a German name !!! Ever see his horses light in the hands ??? I watched one of his lessons once with a German teacher I had at the time (oh yes I tried it , see I tried BOTH ways and from a short listed Olympic rider to boot ) He worked that poor horse and rider till they allmost dropped with sweat and exhaustion on steel like reins. NO NO NO THANKS !!!
I am now thinking I am wasting my time here as some people must skip most of what I write . I believe I said
MY TEACHER WAS THE FORMOST LIVING BAUCHERIST IN THE USA. THE MAN WHO THE FRENCH SCHOOL HAD HIM COME BACK TO TEACH OF BAUCHER , FOR MANY YEARS , JEAN CLAUDE RACINET who has written ALL of the contemporary books on Baucher in English , French AND German where he was brought over and over to teach them another way by many many highly interested people .
NEXT MESTER LUIS VALENCA who learned from the last Royal riding instructor to the King of Portugal ( who was a great Baucherist )as well as his Grandfather and Nuno .O who late in life went allmost all with the way of Baucher AND who now lectures in symposiums on the great value of Baucher .
I did NOT just read the Book of Baucher, or the mistranslated work of Hilda . Jean Claude goes on at depth in his books about all of her mistake in the translation .Some of which amounted to the EXAXT OPPOSITE OF WHAT SHE SAID.
’ You need to see it , feel it and be taught it by someone who actualy was shown by A Baucherist who believes in and uses the system over and over and can guide you like that .
The lack of impulsion LIE, rant blah blah is nothing more than a vain atempt to validate pushing a horse foward out of balance from the start at break neck speeds and steam roller gaits that are unatural with a braced back ,contracted neck, coughing roaring etc etc etc etc and discredit our way of , Position proceeds action, Jaw flexions in movment increase impulsion with no loss of position etc .
I know this everyone believed in what they did that came here until they came broken and beaten down in desperation their must be some alternative . Then they rode and saw , read the few testamonials I posted (more will be ) they are not fake .
Look at what happened when P,K rode the German guys students horses on the DVD. Do you know afterwards Hess was heard to say and it was reported ina Horses for life interview after with PK,. Hess was sitting at a table with comrades and said :"what are we going to do now that people saw that " He was nervous and all of his reaons and quotes etc did NOTHING to stop the people from seeing which way they prefered as well as which way Hes’s own student said the horse felt better.
I am very busy dealing with people who WANT to be taught by a Baucherist and have interest and I hope I have given some some food for thought . I can not spend my life on this thread as much as I have . If anyone wishes to email me to go further it is willsanders@earthlink.net I hope all of you who have interest can some day FEEL a horse trained like this ,as I have in both schools and then decide for yourself and your horse which you prefer .
Their are those who demand to controle everything and everyyone around them with strictnes and force and for them this will NEVER seem like a good idea . For those that want another way of riidng you know where to find me .
[QUOTE=mbm;5046975]
Blue Domino: i dont know much about french/baucher - but i never got the impression that they wanted to extinguish the forward of the horse!
the very very very basic flexions that i have done do the exact opposite of what you are saying they do. the flexions i have done create a horse that is soft in jaw/poll/neck/back since they are all connected. i dont have to ride the horse into a state of softness in the poll - they are before i eve get on.
also my very very very basic attemtps at balance before movement have worked wonders for certain horses.
so i cna say from my basic experimentation that i dont agree iwth your conclusions.
one caveat - i have never read baucher or any other french author. i have watched videos and real life people and i have just experimented with my own horses to see what does what.
eta: my take on flexions is that is an education for the horse to the meaning of the bit. it makes sense that the horse should understand what we want before we get on. and the horse get it right away! oh this feel means chew, this feel means come down in to the bit, etc etc[/QUOTE]
MBM,
From what you say, it sounds to me like you really enjoy the flexions and the work on the head/face/mouth of the horse.
Perfectly understandable, it is certainly a welcome distraction to those who are avoiding the big forward movement of Classical Dressage. I don’t blame you one bit, it is a safe feeling place.
There is a certain, at least ‘feeling’ of danger in letting a big fiery horse loose and letting him move forward with great impulsion and power when we are mounted on his back. I can understand why some would stay in the flexions and avoid that big movement.
[QUOTE=Blue Domino;5048655]
MBM,
From what you say, it sounds to me like you really enjoy the flexions and the work on the head/face/mouth of the horse.
Perfectly understandable, it is certainly a welcome distraction to those who are avoiding the big forward movement of Classical Dressage. I don’t blame you one bit, it is a safe feeling place.
There is a certain, at least ‘feeling’ of danger in letting a big fiery horse loose and letting him move forward with great impulsion and power when we are mounted on his back. I can understand why some would stay in the flexions and avoid that big movement.[/QUOTE]
LOL!!! LOL!!!
ok, if you say so!
eta, aren’t you in northern ca? you can come watch me ride… so you can then at least make informed posts! 
Remember about 10 years ago when taking a lesson with a ‘French Method’ instructor, he got on my 6 year old OTTB gelding who had never once reared in his life, and the instructor wanted to ride him, trying out his ‘flexions’ had the boy rearing and about going over backwards. The colt never reared before or afterwards to my knowledge, and of course, never went back there.
[QUOTE=mbm;5048669]
LOL!!! LOL!!!
ok, if you say so!
eta, aren’t you in northern ca? you can come watch me ride… so you can then at least make informed posts! :)[/QUOTE]
Sure, I’d be delighted to watch you ride sometime, when’s your next CDS show?
actually to answer someo of your comments. i dont “enjoy” flexions etc. (nor do i ever really do them… i do however have them in my mind and i think about them and that helps…
what i DO enjoy is how my horse is balanced and up in the wither and on her haunch before i even take on step. this allows her to be MORE expressive in her movement and soft int eh back etc etc blah blah.
this means… wait for it… that she is MORE capable of doing all the things the german system taught me to do.
its a win win in my book! (and my horses :))
??? i dont normally show. not my thing. but you are more than welcome to come watch me ride anytime.
i spent many years with a trainer from Theordorescu’s barn, plus the many other trainers i have worked with since i was 6… so i have a decent education …
my mare however needed something different. luckily i found what worked for her isnt that cool?
[QUOTE=Blue Domino;5048670]
Remember about 10 years ago when taking a lesson with a ‘French Method’ instructor, he got on my 6 year old OTTB gelding who had never once reared in his life, and the instructor wanted to ride him, trying out his ‘flexions’ had the boy rearing and about going over backwards. The colt never reared before or afterwards to my knowledge, and of course, never went back there.[/QUOTE]
??? this sounds like a not good situation and maybe a bad trainer? are you going to blame the entire french school because of it?
[QUOTE=Blue Domino;5048655]
MBM,
From what you say, it sounds to me like you really enjoy the flexions and the work on the head/face/mouth of the horse.
Perfectly understandable, it is certainly a welcome distraction to those who are avoiding the big forward movement of Classical Dressage. I don’t blame you one bit, it is a safe feeling place.
There is a certain, at least ‘feeling’ of danger in letting a big fiery horse loose and letting him move forward with great impulsion and power when we are mounted on his back. I can understand why some would stay in the flexions and avoid that big movement.[/QUOTE]
sorry, i have one more comment to make on this theme… so you REALLY think that the horses in the videos i posted have no FIRE, power or forward? no impulsion?
really?
wow.
Col. Sanders, please calm down! I fear for your health. Lie down, perhaps put a cool cloth on your fevered brow. I can see your Van Dyk moustache & goatee twitching and curling with anxiety.
We are such a bunch of thick-headed dunces! Obviously we are not worthy of your attention. I am gratified you are so busy with people who already want to learn the Baucherist way. Are you upset because no-one has acknowledged the greatness of you and your teachers adequately? You keep bringing them up, so I wonder.
Or are you upset that the thread you started has spun away from your control and few are listening to you, but have gone off in other directions, discussing the pros and cons of French, German and Baucherist schools of thought?
Unfortunately, that’s what happens on a public BB. Threads take on a life of their own and often spin away from the original poster’s intent.
So sorry, but the ensuing discussions have been more interesting than your original intent.
<someday i will learn to leave the ignored posts ignored>
I see. Now we’re all chopped liver unless we’re picadors.
i dont know about chopped liver, being a vegetarian… but as for ignored… well after a while certain folks are seen to never have anything positive or pleasant to say it just makes everything so .much. nicer !
but of course sometimes i hit “show post” when i shouldn’t! then my eyes and heart regret it! 
Eagles
I am enjoying this thread (for various reasons)
BUT can you please break up your posts? A solid block of text is a headache to read, and makes a reader frustrated with your writing.
Thanks in advance.
ETA I finally got to the end and saw that you learnt paragraphs. Continue. (though you might want to try a browser based spell check, you seem a bit agitated and your spelling goes to pot)
I have been looking through Dressage & CT circa 1995 and found an article by Michel Henriquet (related to Catherine of the rope bridle video?) who trained under disciples of Baucher. I don’t have a scanner so I will quote:
M Henriquet: “Without combat or violence we, nevertheless, always arrived at an easy domination of impulsive horses; but this was often achieved at the expense of impulsion. I was further disturbed by the insufficient suppleness and lack of cadence that resulted. It seemed to me that we were utilizing a whole set of tools but were missing the main piece.
The horses schooling rested solely on the integral application of Baucherization: suppling in place, in hand and mounted; the alternate effects of hand and legs; getting the horse progressively used to the subtle pressure of spurs; the yeilding of the hand and legs; and whose main objective was the almost obsessional raising of the horse’s neck.
As we advanced in our scrupulous respect for these precepts, I began to perceive that this raising of the forehand was forced, in that it proceeded more from the excessive raising of the hand than the engagement of the haunches obtained by the seat and by Classical suppling. This artificial raising of the hand blocked the horse’s back.
I also began to be convinced that the Baucherist arsenal did not allow for incurvation or bend as a whole in the forward movement and side stepping.”
Henriquet went on to train with Oliveira.
[QUOTE=mbm;5048768]
i dont know about chopped liver, being a vegetarian… but as for ignored… well after a while certain folks are seen to never have anything positive or pleasant to say it just makes everything so .much. nicer !
but of course sometimes i hit “show post” when i shouldn’t! then my eyes and heart regret it! ;)[/QUOTE]
I’m sorry mbm, I was referring to eagles’ post.
Eagles-A serious question for you
If Baucher’s principles are so correct, why then did Col. Podhajsky embrace them?
The Col. was always seeking a better way for the horses to be light, loose, supple and unconstrained.
He achieved that at the SRS without Baucher…
[QUOTE=mbm;5048768]
but as for ignored… well after a while certain folks are seen to never have anything positive or pleasant to say it just makes everything so .much. nicer !
but of course sometimes i hit “show post” when i shouldn’t! then my eyes and heart regret it! ;)[/QUOTE]
yes, indeed.
eagles, I hope you do not leave. I’m sure it’s frustrating to be attacked and disparaged by people who may exist only in cyberspace. We don’t know their real names, their credentials, or whether they’ve actually trained horses or people.
Some of us would like to learn more.
By submitting your email, you agree to our Terms of Service and Privacy Policy. You may also receive promotional emails from The Chronicle of the Horse. You can opt out at any time.
For Customers
Company
Terms of Use
