[QUOTE=spirithorse;5048861]
If Baucher’s principles are so correct, why then did Col. Podhajsky embrace them?
The Col. was always seeking a better way for the horses to be light, loose, supple and unconstrained.
He achieved that at the SRS without Baucher…[/QUOTE]
This makes no sense.
Baucher followers claim lightness of the forehand…yet to see it.
Podhajsky achieved lightness without using the methods of Baucher.
So I have asked Mr. Sanders to validate the claims of Baucher if SRS would not use them.
no I think it was your sematics
“If Baucher’s principles are so correct, why then did Col. Podhajsky embrace them?”
I think you mean why didn’t Col. Podhajsky…
Thanks
Yes I meant why didn’t he…LOL
I have sent him an email to his email address. I have no problem with folks disagreeing with my methods and I listen to others, so I just question the inability of Mr. Sanders to hear from others…including the Roasters…who have posted some great things, even against me.
This was his response to the email: " I am happy you have found something you like ,BUT sorry I think you are grossly misdirected when you put other things down . please dont bother me with this fairy tale Thank you"
I did not put something down, I stated my experience. I believe that no one here has put down Baucher but rather pointed out the flaws that appear to exist in the methodology. As for a fairy tale, do we all not have at least one fairy tale we wish would come true?
[QUOTE=eagles;5042219]
Hello I train horses in the Way of Baucher and also use some of the old Baroque methods .
This is not competitve dressage but somthing different. I find many people do not understand the way a Horse is trained in this manner and so if anyone would like to talk about it in a friendly way I would be glad to.
Please just dont think it will conform to what you may have been taught or be doing because as I said it is a different road in many ways. I am 59 years old riding since a child, taught the Calvary way by my father which was based on the French school . Was a long time student and friend of the late Baucherist Master, Jean Claude Racinet , trained for elleven years with Mestre Luis Valenca in Portugal, a cousin of Nuno O. A great Master and a man who lectures on Baucher . I have been teaching and using the Baucher way for over 20 years . Just as a small background . [edit]
Thank you[/QUOTE]
Welcome, Eagles:
Eagles, I was so excited when you posted the other day, to think that here was someone who espoused the ideals and values of the french school which I have begun to practice in my own beginner way. I find that your first posts echo the ideas of how to estabilsh a foundation for the horse in order to begin to build strength correctly and train him to the correct responses which I have been reading about. I read your post the thread the day you first posted and didn’t get a chance to post on this thread yet. I am so glad you are here, and talking about the classical french methods. I have been lucky enough recently to find a basic book on
“Classical horsemanship for our time” by Jean Froissard and (I think his wife) Lily Powell when I was looking for more detailed information about classical foundations for my horse, as I have been exposed to in hand work but until recently had not begun to understand it.
My trainer, Marty Whittle, has recently teamed up with Bettina Drummond to give some clinics this winter, Marty to address the unlocking and correct use of the rider’s body especially when injured through equi-yoga, and Bettina to demonstrate exercises to release the horse for correct work based on her years with Nuno Oliviera (think I spelled that right).
I have only just begun to school my horse, and learn about dressage, and have worked hard to school myself to ask for small things slowly and not rush the horse, and begin to think about the french school, which I am starting to be exposed to. If I am lucky, I will be able to ride with a great teacher of classical dressage this winter, and we are very greedily rubbing our hands together at our barn to realize that our trainer, Marty, is learning all she can from Bettina which she will pass on to us.
My horse has blossomed and leaped ahead in his strength and performance in just the past 6 weeks I have been focused on working in hand with him on his flexions and lateral exercises on the ground. Everything is incredibly transferable to in saddle once we have learned together what I am asking of him on the ground, and he works hard to achieve what I am asking for.
I look forward to hearing more from you about your experiences and the horses you are riding or have ridden and would like any references for books or DVDs you may have to pass on.
Following the basics from my trainer and the suggestions in the book, my horse has stopped evading the bit above or below, and is flexing at the poll (rather than lower down on the neck) at verticle, and beginning to really use his back and hind quarters. As this gets stronger, he is using his back and hind quarters more. Its exciting and our daily work includes 20 minutes of ground work before riding.
Just babbling. Cheers
so, do none of the folks who were going on and on about the french not having impulsive horses care to comment about the vids i posted?
as for the french school caring about collection - erm… well isnt collection the entire end point of schooling? to teach our horses to carry more weight behind?
how can any school using the various exercises to bring about more weight bearing on each hind leg be seen as wrong?
for many the exercises are just a ends to a means - a more ridable horse. the piaffe is not an end to itself, but used to strengthen the horses hind end etc etc.
it is all such cool stuff! and makes dressage so much more interesting when it is used as therapy for the horse!
I think it very much depends on the particular horse what approach you take and I’m very suspicious of the ‘to a hammer everything looks like a nail’ approach.
If someone tells you -my way is the only true way for any horse- I think they are either lying or misguided.
I have 2 horses.
One who likes to bear heavily on the bit and run like a train on the forehand and all our schooling is based in ensuring he carries himself and does not lean on the bit- zillions of transitions-flexions, lateral work and no I won’t hold you up and no I’m not ever worried you will stop your love affair with the bit if I insist you get off the bit…
and one who is built like the modern WB, easily carries himself in an uphill frame which may fool some but I know he’s often slightly behind the bit and all our schooling is based in ensuring he’s solidly out to seek the bit solidly downward before bringing it back up. He needs to take a firm handshake with the bit before the work begins.
Baucher would be wrong for this second horse but would likely be OK for the first horse.
These horses require different approaches. I distrust any horseman who claims they have the one true way for all horses of all types.
I lurk. Mostly because I don’t have much time to read bulletin boards, but when I do, it’s because I enjoy reading the discussions when they are an exchange of information or points of interest. I lurk because I dislike the rampant rudeness so often seen on here.
I am coming out of lurkdom to address Beasmom, and perhaps anyone else it may apply to. It’s one thing to act like someone in the “rude girl clique” in high school if one is at that point in their life. (Still not acceptable.) As a mature person who is a riding instructor, however, I find you incredibly and appallingly rude. More so, because you seem to enjoy being rude. If I were a student looking for a riding instructor, I would find your rudeness, close-mindedness, lack of integrity, and most of all, lack of compassion, serious red flags.
[QUOTE=mbm;5048940]
so, do none of the folks who were going on and on about the french not having impulsive horses care to comment about the vids i posted?
as for the french school caring about collection - erm… well isnt collection the entire end point of schooling? to teach our horses to carry more weight behind?
how can any school using the various exercises to bring about more weight bearing on each hind leg be seen as wrong?
for many the exercises are just a ends to a means - a more ridable horse. the piaffe is not an end to itself, but used to strengthen the horses hind end etc etc.
it is all such cool stuff! and makes dressage so much more interesting when it is used as therapy for the horse![/QUOTE]
Yes, collection is the ultimate goal of dressage. However, for those of us that train to show, we need to do more than ride in high collection 100% of the time. Even the best trained horse needs a break from high collection, doesn’t he? I can’t speak for the goal of others, but my goal is collection, but also the elasticity required to go from collection to extension and back.
I didn’t look at your videos, but I will. I hope it is not 4 ecole circus tricks or SRS long lining which are a bit of a turn off to me.
Eagles - I appreciate your posts on here. I have been reading this thread since your first post and it has been growing by leaps and bounds! I know very little about Baucher, so I would welcome it if you would recommend some reading materials. If you had to pick one book to recommend on Baucher, which would it be?
There isn’t a single right or wrong way to train a horse. I think it is safe to say there are good points in almost any training method depending on the horse and the training needs. I am all for learning more about Baucher and taking what fits for my horse and I.
I have to agree with ponybetty and some of the other comments around the attacking nature some posters have taken on this thread. I find I can learn a whole lot from COTH forums when folks disagree, but leave the emotion out of it.
well, yes, but maybe the French school likes collected pics/vids like the german school likes extended trots?
neither show the whole picture!
i think you might find the videos interesting 
Hi well I can not pick just one as ther is to much to grasp like that .
Here is my realy short list: All of Jean Claude Racinet’s books. Start with “Another Horsemanship " Then Racinet Explains Baucher " He also has Another Horsemanhip” and the Last in English , Falling for Fallacies , Misleading commonplace Notions of Dressage training . If you read German , Master Racinet has a large vollume in that language as well with more info . I think Cadmos has it .the others you can find on Amazon usualy .
My Book," Baroque and Academic Training Concepts " sets out a lot of the principles very clearly as I took things others did not make real easy to understand and tried to explain it and some new theories as well with lots of photos . I tried to make it as though it is the book I wish I had when I started with Baucher . On my site
Twisted Truths of Modern Dressage by Phillippe Karl . Cadmos has it.If you can ever get a look at the French edition which I was given by french riding insdtructor who was my student while here in the states , you will see some full page BEAUTIFUL photographs of the author in release of the aids . it was idiotic to take them out of the English edition . I was sent one of the first English pre publication editions to write a review on by the publisher by the way , and I made a large complaint those were removed . Those pictures would have done more for his cause than all the others in that book to me .
After you read all of that you can pick up an old Baucher edition and I think it will make a lot more sense .
On the private email note. PLEASE only email me if you want to talk about Baucher in a POSITVE way . I just got one from some person saying all classical riding is garbage throw away your bridles etc etc . I dont need that !!!
eta to say - this is for those that think that french riding cant be forward/impulsive and it is only “mincing” steps…
hey, what about the guys from the Cadre Noir? they have an eventing team dont they? how the heck could they do that if they dont believe in impulsion and forward movement?
just curious…
on a positive note,i am having a great time watching lots of vids on Youtube of super non german riding… and i have to say - i am falling hard for the baroque breeds!
i can only hope the connemara ends up looking like them ! 
ToN Farm
This says a whole lot more than the just the words.
IMO;
Collection is the ‘only’ result we should seek because elasticity and the fluidity from the thorough engagement of forehand, back and hindquarters produces that wondrous soft and supple collection for all gaits.
High collection causes problems for true collection.
[QUOTE=spirithorse;5049032]
High collection causes problems for true collection.[/QUOTE]
’
how so? can you give examples or give sources for this info?
Elasticity is important so as to TON’s post I would also concure.
I find it very interesting that when this discussion comes up we are provided with the “best” videos to be found of this type of training, and mostly they only a show a few of the movements needed to do competative dressage.
I see that some of the positive responses to the OP are from people who don’t show so maybe that makes the difference.
I actually NEED extensions to continue forward if I use scores as a good reflection of my riding.
Another thing to add is that I absolutely use flexion and have very tense horses so its a huge part of my training warm up to flex and do slower work making sure that the horse knows that the release of the bends/pressure come when their backs are relaxed and their jaw is soft.
The thing is that suddenly a horse will figure this out and no longer needs much flexion for a while until we push for even MORE forward or harder movements and I may have to come back to it.
But the release to long and low, the giving hand, is something that I think that differs the trends.
Integrity?
Why do you state such an untruth.
Your lack of integrity has been demonstrated and instead you have chosen to deceive with this statement.
I voiced an opinion based upon 22 years of my experience…and I have gotten flamed by members of this forum…but guess what the flaming has also educated me…something you appear not being capable of accepting or doing
I NEVER said all classical riding is garbage…
I said jaw flexion is a fallacy and some other classical methods [referencing the disproven portions of Baucher]
I attempt to use proven classical methodolgies {for the horse} when I school…and sometimes I fail…guess I am not at wondrous as you.
I never said throw away your bridles,etc…
I simply stated my bitless experience, which by the way comes from learning to ride dressage with a simple snaffle and no curb.
I have recently done Internet research on PK, Olivieria and some others. What I find interesting is that I am of the humble opinion that their methodology is more in line with Francois de la Gueriniere than with Baucher
If my old man memory serves me right, I believe Dr. Nicholson addressed it. I might be wrong…
That being said, the extreme high collection that appears in the dressage arena encompasses the neck being brought back toward the rider. IMO that such an extreme position negates the muscles over the withers and negatively impacts the movement of the shoulders.
mbm, there was not one French school. It was not that simple. You can’t clump Baucher with the Cardre Noir. Did you read what Hendriquet and Mikolka had to say about Baucher? There were rifts and differences. Isn’t that a surprise? Maybe you ought to read up before so precipitiously arguing a position
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