Baucher method

[spirithorse]

Folks:
Decide which school is correct by the ride, by the use of the bit.
Article 416 2. Submission states: “The main contact with the horse’s mouth must be through the snaffle bit.”

The rider who uses the snaffle as the main contact, no matter the school of foundational training, it the more correct rider. In today’s competition arena, the standard of appearence is with the curb being used as the bit of choice, all the while the snaffle is in full contact. Where is the release of the “bits” in order for the horse to appear to being doing it on its own?

[eagles]

First of you started your un asked for personal email with an attack on my system and then my teacher . What you first said was you ride with out a bit ( so bridles are bad etc et all ) . Then you said " JAW FLEXIONS IS A FALLSHOOD (Sorry not acording to Dr Deb Bennet the esteemed writer-researcher of many books on the horse ) ALONG WITH OTHER SO CALLED CLASSICAL SCHOOLING METHODS (you did not say SOME of them ,that means off off this forum you were refering to ALL of them ) LONG LOW AND DEEP IS DETRIMENTAL TO A HORSE BECAUSE THE SHOULDERS BECOME BLOCKED AND THE BACK IS HOLOWED .
MR .RACiNET (HERE YOU INSULT MY TEACHER AGAIN ) COULD NEVER (A BIG WORD NEVER HMMM )ACHIEVE THE RESULTS I HAVE …

Good for you, BUT ,you were the one Boasting you were far superior to a learned master not I . In all of this thread I have NEVER said I was better than ANYONE, not ANYONE I just do the best I can and believe in my system . How could I make such a Boast and be taken seriously ???

1. This is thread I STARTED about Baucher, not bitlles trick riding .

2. I DONT WANT NEGATIVE EMAILS SENT TO MY PRIVATE ADDRESS JUST PEOPLE INTERESTED IN LEARNING MORE OF BAUCHER AND WHAT WE DO IF THEY LIKE .IF THEY LIKE OR STAY AWAY AND RESPECT MY PRIVACY PLEASE . Their are plenty of forums for other topics.

[Aven]

You are not doing your cause any favours. If you aren’t willing to clarify your points then why post on a BB? I mean not everyone is going to love your opinions.

I really like some of what you say, but your lack of tolerance for other opinions is more than a bit off putting. If you get emails you don’t like… well that is what the delete key is for.

And calling bitless riding trick riding… that just makes you look silly and petty. Bitless riding isn’t going to abuse the horse, and is much better than all those people ‘hanging’ on their horse’s faces.

[alicen]

[QUOTE That being said, the extreme high collection that appears in the dressage arena encompasses the neck being brought back toward the rider. IMO that such an extreme position negates the muscles over the withers and negatively impacts the movement of the shoulders.[/QUOTE]

Interesting, I have here before me just such a picture of Oliveira riding what Henriquet described as a hyper-Baucherized horse. Oliveira himself described it as “terrors of youth.” The photograph was given to Henriquet by Oliveira to “point out the negative consequences that could occur were one to follow certain Bauercherist methods.” Front of neck rises straight up, hollow back, legs out behind, a look of utter scorn, distaste, and contempt on the horses face the likes of which would have me hanging up my boots forever and my head in shame.

But here’s the thing : Racinet writes in response to Henriquet that “In his (Baucher’s) second manner, he lifted the head in order to spare his legs, which were seriously incapacitated after his accident of 1855.” So the emphasis of Baucher’s handriding might have been his attempt to compensate for ineffective legs.

[mbm]

[QUOTE=alicen;5049142]
mbm, there was not one French school. It was not that simple. You can’t clump Baucher with the Cardre Noir. Did you read what Hendriquet and Mikolka had to say about Baucher? There were rifts and differences. Isn’t that a surprise? Maybe you ought to read up before so precipitiously arguing a position[/QUOTE]

i am not arguing any position. there were folks saying that the french horses dont go forward etc . i pointed out that isn’t the case.

clearly there are different schools but i dont know enough to say more… and i am trying to learn!

my feeling is that those that say they are “Baucherists” have filtered what Baucher did /wrote into something that works for them. i could be wrong but that is what it feels like.

[spirithorse]

Mr. Sanders,
Oh my gosh, you are so childish. You continue to misrepresent what I stated and included in this thread.

As for the disparging remark regarding my or anyother individuals riding dressage bitless. The cavesson is the classical beginning of the training of the horse. Oh my gosh, seems that we bitless folks ride with the contact similiar to the cavasson.

Ever hear of Catherine Henriquet who regularly schools dressage in halter?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPUNsC5RNmA

Ladies and Gentlemen of this great forum, here is my email to him:

For 22yrs I have ridden dressage without a bit and get the results set forth in the rules. Jaw flexion is a falsehood, along with other so called classical schooling methods. Long, low and deep is detrimental to the horse because the shoulders become blocked and the back is hollowed. Mr. Racinet, could never achieve the result I and others can who ride the horses in their natural selfcarriage.

1. I previously posted that I referenced the Baucher method…
2. Bennet had no knowledge of external induced tetanic contractions in horses…so she is not all knowledgeable as none of us are.
3. I see no attack upon you or Racinet in the body of the email
4. I did not and do not boast that I am better than any individual. I do state knowledge acquired from experience. Even Parelli has something good to offer the beginning dressage rider.

Now Sir, if you really wish to justify your disparging statements regarding bitless riding and the knowledge I have acquired:
I would be most willing to openly ride with you in a public demonstration of your Baucher methods against my methods, which by the way, I have learned from the horse’s ala Podhajsky.

Are you up to the challenge and willing to ride the ride? Or are you simply full of diatribes and retoric?

[egontoast]

Now Sir, if you really wish to justify your disparging statements regarding bitless riding and the knowledge I have acquired:
I would be most willing to openly ride with you in a public demonstration of your Baucher methods against my methods, which by the way, I have learned from the horse’s ala Podhajsky.

pleasepleaseplease

We dearly need to see this.

How about you put it on youtube and we all give some money to Pakistan flood victims or some worthy cause.

[spirithorse]

Egontoast;

What a great idea. I think the charity should be horse related though!

We should really make it challenge by having some interested individuals provide us with horses that have never been schooled in either’s methods.

And: we should exchange horses to see if any differences arise from equipment and methodology changes.

[ginger708]

[QUOTE=stryder;5048877]
yes, indeed.

eagles, I hope you do not leave. I’m sure it’s frustrating to be attacked and disparaged by people who may exist only in cyberspace. We don’t know their real names, their credentials, or whether they’ve actually trained horses or people.

Some of us would like to learn more.[/QUOTE]

I assure you I do not only exist in cyberspace. My full name is Virginia Tilton I am a member of the USDF, USEF, IDCTA, and Fox Valley Saddle Association. I live in Wayne Illinois 5 minutes from Lamplight Show grounds. I am 34 years old I have been riding since I was 6 years old. I started as a hunter, Jumper learning from riders trained in the George Morris school of equitation.However I do not know if any of them trained with him I would assume no. I participated in many schooling shows as a jumper but never did the circuit because my parents could not afford for me to have a horse or to lease one.

I have been working in Dressage for 10years first with school horses then with my first horse a Belgian plow horse that was a rescue. I rode him at schooling shows at green as grass working towards training level and first when his hind end gave out on him.

I retired him and since I can’t afford to own two horses I share-board. Or if I can catch rides on friends horses I do that too. I have been training with a known trainer in the area that brought two of her OTTB to FEI I1 the trained with John Winnett (sp?). Now I train with a french born woman that trains the the regular ole training scale. She and her husband run a local eventing barn. They have had many clinics that I have audited. This year I hope to ride with Gary Rockwell, Wolfgang May, and Allison Springer ( she is an eventer but does her dressage training with JJ Tate and she will be doing an dressage clinic.)

My dressage practice and philosophy is to use what I believe is what you would call competitive dressage methods. I want to get the horse as close as to what is expected by the USDF at the level that I am riding. The horse that I am riding now is a 10 year old International Sport Horse. He is a solid training level horse working on first.

I know that I do not haul on the snaffle and most of the dressage riders that I know do not do this. I prefer to get my lift in the back form my leg. I ask the horse for forward, half halt to balance and usually he is connected with out a problem.

I even have checks as most dressage riders do. If I loop the outside rein and the head drops slightly he is connected. If I feel the lift under the saddle and the hing legs under me he is connected. If I pause both legs at his side and sit deep he will halt square. If I pull on the reins to do a downward transition or a halt I will automatically loose the hind. The leg will correspond to the rein that I mistakenly pulled. So I work really hard to never do this. So if you are riding connected to the bit there is no heaviness and no pulling on the reins the bit is an adjustment tool just like my spurs.

The reason that I have been so outspoken toward the master is because in my opinion he is insulting the method that I choose to fallow to further his own method. Why is it so horrible for me to want to see these horrible broke down horses that were abused in the snaffle and brought to glory in the curb. Why does he have to insult the version of dressage that I practice to boost his own. Did anybody read the parts of his poster that insult the people that do not entertain his ideas as horrible unfeeling towards their horses. Being someone that has never even reprimanded a horse by slapping them I take offence. I do not think there is a problem with asking someone to put their money where their mouth is especially if the want mine.

Look; to the people that like what he is saying, go for it just don’t ever expect to see it in the sports arena and by the way Dressage is a sport as well as an art form. And to the people that are nitpicking the top professional riders horses. Once again the FEI gives an explanation of what a perfect dressage horse should look like at the level they are working and the riders are training to get as close as possible hence 80% and the extremely 90% scores. The FEI Judges seem to recognize that the horses and riders are of flesh and blood and not perfect.

[CHT]

I recall reading an interesting essay regarding why certain riding styles fell by the wayside. The author’s theory/speculation was that the main reason we train predominantly by the German theories is because the German’s came up with the rules and tests of showing. Had Americans or Spanish riders designed competitive dressage, then the tests would be very different, as would be the training required.

Perhaps where some people are getting sidetracked is they are thinking that dressage training must be geared towards showing…which currently includes very extended/flippy gaits, and not things such as airs above the ground, redrop, or other moves that have been “lost” for showing.

As a trainer who tends to get in horses who have not reacted as expected to training by other trainers (and hence come to me), I would be very interested to learn more and consider these other paths. Not everyone is looking to compete as the end goal, and not all horses are best suited to the German method.

[ToN_Farm]

[QUOTE=CHT;5049368]
the German’s came up with the rules and tests of showing.[/QUOTE] Is that true? Seriously, I really don’t know. Can anyone confirm that? I thought the FEI rules were started by the French.

[mickeydoodle]

[QUOTE=mbm;5048558]
there is also this which is am amazing example of how he uses the different exercises to build the weight bearing of the hind legs and how he focuses on one leg at a time.

it goes on too long in my book - i think the horse was done about a 30 - 60 seconds before he stopped.

but impulsion? in spades!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TfiTTyi2He8&feature=related

btw: the breed of horse he is riding has short high steps by nature. .and i think this is a bull fighting horse - so not a dressage horse per se.[/QUOTE]

no, not a dressage horse- no bend at all in any of the lateral work in the above three videos, irregular at best in the in hand “piaffe” often a tranter.

[MistyBlue]

sigh No wonder most dressage riders never rise past 1st-2nd level.

W-a-y too much arguing about the best way to overanalyze the riding and nitpick the horse into annoyance.

And then add in the never ending, “My old dead master is better than your old dead master” and “this method is better than that method.”

Shouldn’t the methods and masters be split up and mixed, then each trainer and each rider throwing in some of their own stuff as it applies to each individual horse?

That way the horse benefits, the training progresses, there’s less arguing and less nitpicking and maybe more would enjoy the discipline while they’re riding instead of just arguing it to death online.

Just ride folks.

If you’ve been riding for more than a few years…you will know what each horse needs and responds to all by yourself and not require endless arguments and adhering to a single method. Take some pride in yourselves, you can do this.

It’s dressage, not rocket surgery.

[ginger708]

I do not believe that there is competitive or classical dressage. And as far as the tests being geared only towards the German method and the tests would be different if the Americans or French had been the governing influences that is just not completely correct.

The only tests that are international are the FEI levels. The levels that lead up to the FEI levels are more geared toward the country that the representative govering body resides in. I am sure I will be corrected if I am wrong but in Germany there is no intro or training. Everything starts at their version of first level and from my understanding is more advance then our version of first. I also believe that their levels are not numbered they are lettered.

As far as daisy cutting gaits, once again the riders are working towards what the FEI rules state are the qualities of a perfect dressage horse at that level of test. Since none of these horse and rider combinations are getting a 100% for their test score, I have to believe they are getting marked down for what is not correct. So if the horse hoof flips up in extended trot that is incorrect and the rider should be marked down for it.

[alicen]

From the FEI website:

1921 – The FEI is formed in Lausanne, Switzerland. It regulates international events in Jumping, Dressage and Eventing. The founding members are France, USA, Sweden, Japan, Belgium, Denmark, Norway and Italy.

[ThreeFigs]

I’m sure someone will correct me if I’m wrong, but wasn’t it General Decarpentry who put together the first set of rules for the FEI? He was French.

[Carol_O]

I am really enjoying this thread, now that I figured out how to use the “ignore” feature. It is funny how some who are most critical of the thread seem to be devoting the most time amd attention to it.

[CHT]

Sorry, I know this is off topic, but:

The FEI rules for dressage were built upon the standards set by the German Equestrian Federation, and in particular the ideas set out in H.Dv.12. Piaffe and Passage were not included in the original olympics.

And of course dressage was in the Olympics BEFORE the FEI was formed. The FEI build upon the rules used in the Olympics, and over the years the tests, rules and movements have evolved.

At the time, Germany was very well regarded for having clearly organized and layed out training methods, and their military training routines were the foundation of eventing as well.

[ThreeFigs]

OK, you made me look it up. I found this:

horsesforlife.com/MastersWhoisDecarpentry

[ginger708]

[QUOTE=CHT;5049559]
Sorry, I know this is off topic, but:

The FEI rules for dressage were built upon the standards set by the German Equestrian Federation, and in particular the ideas set out in H.Dv.12. Piaffe and Passage were not included in the original olympics.

And of course dressage was in the Olympics BEFORE the FEI was formed. The FEI build upon the rules used in the Olympics, and over the years the tests, rules and movements have evolved.

At the time, Germany was very well regarded for having clearly organized and layed out training methods, and their military training routines were the foundation of eventing as well.[/QUOTE]

I do not believe that you are off topic at all. The Master made people that practice what the neo Baucherists call competitive Dressage part of this discussion when he, and I am reiterating not quoting. That we who ride in a snaffle competitively are wrong and he will show you a more humane better way to ride dressage. So I feel that a discussion on the origin of the sport of dressage and how it is not only a German entity but a collaboration. As we have seen throughout the history of the sport the governing bodies being the Olympics or now FEI that it is organic and it evolves. Therefore I find that it is not correct to call non competitors French practitioners and competitors German. There are french riders that participate in FEI classes.