The FEI rules etc might of been a collaboration, ,but the tests we have today are nothing like what the were in 1921.
[QUOTE=mbm;5048676]
actually to answer someo of your comments. i dont “enjoy” flexions etc. (nor do i ever really do them… i do however have them in my mind and i think about them and that helps…
what i DO enjoy is how my horse is balanced and up in the wither and on her haunch before i even take on step. this allows her to be MORE expressive in her movement and soft int eh back etc etc blah blah.
this means… wait for it… that she is MORE capable of doing all the things the german system taught me to do. 
its a win win in my book! (and my horses :))[/QUOTE]
I’ve seen it a million times, somebody going for that ‘look’ right from the start, the wither up, the hocks underneath, the vertical or slightly behind the bit head up position, and a million times, i’ve:rolleyes:
[QUOTE=Blue Domino;5049604]
I’ve seen it a million times, somebody going for that ‘look’ right from the start, the wither up, the hocks underneath, the vertical or slightly behind the bit head up position, and a million times, i’ve:rolleyes:[/QUOTE]
first of all… hunhhhh? how do you get the above from what i wrote?
second: dude… what is your issue?
There ARE fei level tests (psg and higher) which ARE national tests (especially in countries other than the US). In other countries there are no intro/training level tests because the horse is supposed to be ‘on the bit’ (rather than merely ‘accept the bit’ as our training level tests request)from the beginning.
The FEI tests are very much like the tests of earlier times, they are merely shorter (originally they were 15 minutes), require sitting extensions, and are missing the rocker (reinback/forward/reinback), and have one tempis. Remember baucher’s one tempis were considered a gait anomaly (they are) and were not accepted for some time. Very little else has changed. Except for the period immediately after the war where there were far fewer high level horses/riders left alive.
The main countries which were winning early in the last century were sweden and france, and russian. Germany’s strength came later. As alicen said, the initial members of the fei were scandanavia/france/italy/belgium/US, not germany. And dressage was added in 1906 (fairly immediately after the start of the modern games).
The american cavalry system was french based, from an french officier which was brought over by a french consultant to the army bureau. And the basis of his work was one of the first people to systemize equitation, Baucher (like it or not). And our jumping strengths were based upon the caparilli/santini system which when we followed it produced probably the most unriviled jump riders ever seen and for a long period of time (until the demise of the USEF training facility/horses).
Young horses are traditionally up, free, and very open when the rider first sits upon them. What comes from that is the rider’s responsiblity.
[QUOTE=mbm;5049611]
first of all… hunhhhh? how do you get the above from what i wrote?
second: dude… what is your issue?[/QUOTE]
First off you state: “My horse is balanced and up in the wither and on her haunch before i ever take on(e) step.” end quote.
Now the very first steps of any dressage would be relaxation and stretching, it wouldn’t be wither up and on the haunch from the very first step.
Your words paint a picture of like I said, what I’ve seen a million times. If you meant something else, I didn’t get the picture.
I’m very pro German method and consider Baucher methods to be a scourge, that’s ‘what’s up’.
ahh… well, like i said… come see me ride… that would pretty much end any ambiguity
a halt can happen at any time. withers up, can happen with the head lowered, and even on a loose rein.
i have no idea if this cool thing i am doing is from mars - all i know is it works.
balance before movements works. at least how i am doing it.
[QUOTE=mbm;5049659]
ahh… well, like i said… come see me ride… that would pretty much end any ambiguity
a halt can happen at any time. withers up, can happen with the head lowered, and even on a loose rein.
i have no idea if this cool thing i am doing is from mars - all i know is it works.
balance before movements works. at least how i am doing it. :)[/QUOTE]
That paints a different picture, wither up, head lowered and on a loose rein. Happy it’s working for you, keep up the good work.
It’s interesting that without knowing both sides of the discussion that baucherism is said to ignore fdo (aka chewing the reins from the hand aka stretching). It does not. BOTH schools stress the importance of mobility of the jaw and the ability to instantly lengthen the horse forward/down/out in all three gaits easily. Relaxation in motion is a product of the first rung of the training scale: purity of gaits/a steady tempo/a swinging back and balance. And for what it is worth, every germanic teacher/trainer I have ridden with addressed mobility of the jaw, did light standing flexions (although not the quite the same), and required a squared halt. Did south of the Rhine stress lightness at all costs, and north of the Rhine more stress submission? Mostly, depending upon the teachers. Does much of what goes on today’s competition scene (no matter where) bear resemblance to either? Very little.
Posted by ideayoda:
The american cavalry system was french based, from an french officier which was brought over by a french consultant to the army bureau. And the basis of his work was one of the first people to systemize equitation, Baucher (like it or not).
I am a bit confused by the above … are you saying that Baucher developed our (old) American cavalry system (the manuals and such)? I thought the name of the man who developed all of that was different than Baucher … and Brig. Gen. Harry D. Chamberlain worked with that man (the man who’s name I can’t remember) and they developed the entire system together.
That is a sound belief.
But do we know that Baucher wouldn’t have agreed with you? The problem with discussing the techniques of people who are no longer with us is that we don’t know what they “knew but didn’t mention” in their books.
Collection without a bit?
I’ve seen this person thru the years. As a dressage judge, she was one of the few who would talk to you about your test with you in a positive way as you walked up to the judge’s booth on your way out.
She trained with an instructor who was short or long listed for the Olympic team, who I didn’t care for, but Karen had trained a horse that was full of expression and spirit that this instructor didn’t have.
Now she does her own thing and I am not suprised that she is successful
http://dressagenaturally.net/photos-videos/videos
I’m thinking that the way to bitless riding (self carriage) has to start with riding on the bit and if done correctly, I believe that the gift your horse will give you is self carriage, and a very deep and trusting relationship that is proven with not needing a bit.
http://books.google.com/books?id=iFUCAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=francois+baucher&source=bl&ots=Bvbf_kfPju&sig=aea_qF-vS3VsEvVN5porzd0AoGo&hl=en&ei=AFFuTMiQGYqqngfDo-XrBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=13&ved=0CEUQ6AEwDA#v=onepage&q&f=false
I’m sorry. My computer skills are rudimentary. And I can’t copy this passage. This is a military testimonial for Baucher’s training methods. Please start reading on page 31. Note the praise for the ridigity of this system for ALL horses.
Would the military have been interested in going into battle with schwunging, expressive horses? I think not. First priority would be horses who had the qualities of automatons.
From what I have read, a confirmed Baucherist does not believe there is anything other than “The System.” It is very interesting to note that successful French riders say that they are “Baucherists in theory.” Does this not imply that there was something objectionable in the practise?
I am now re-reading “The complete training of Horse and Rider” by Alois Podhajsky, trying to understand how Classical riding CAN be a sensible and beautiful art. I am happy to see that there is Classical horsemanship that is NOT Baucher, Nuno, etc, and not competition dressage, but somewhere in between, being the best of both worlds.
[QUOTE=mbm;5049659]
ahh… well, like i said… come see me ride… that would pretty much end any ambiguity
a halt can happen at any time. withers up, can happen with the head lowered, and even on a loose rein.
i have no idea if this cool thing i am doing is from mars - all i know is it works.
balance before movements works. at least how i am doing it. :)[/QUOTE]
What exactly do you mean withers up? Does that mean that you are feeling lift under the saddle? Unless your horse is horribly down hill, and I don’t even think that is anatomically possible. The horse is going to be it’s most balanced naturally at the halt. That is unless you are hanging off the side of your horse or doing something else to influence the body.
It is when the horse is moving that balance is important because the horse has to stay balanced while contending with us on their back. How our movement or lack of movement effect them and how their movement effects us.
Bitless Collection
PFB;
In crossunder the jaw rein bitless bridles with the rein connectors, collection cannot be attained correctly
In SB collection does comes naturally, easily and thoroughly when the rider gives the correct aids. However, a rider must be willing to use it differently than a bitted bridle.
I have ridden a horse in a bitless and the horse stayed connected the whole time. If you are training a horse from your leg the leg at the girth will ask the horse to lift the back. When the horse lifts the back the legs automatically step under and the head becomes balanced at the point where it is comfortable. That is connection from that, you can start doing exercises to achieve collection.
And even though I have never trained a horse bitless if you are riding from the leg I think that in theory it could be possible to get connection and collection because the leg controls over half of the body. It is hard to forget about the head because that is what so many people judge correct work on. However truly it is the body that will always get the head to do what you want.
But do we know that Baucher wouldn’t have agreed with you? The problem with discussing the techniques of people who are no longer with us is that we don’t know what they “knew but didn’t mention” in their books.
Well, that’s true. I was responding to Sanders statement that , at least in his interpretation of Baucher, he wants them slightly behind the bit. Excuse me for paraphrasing but it was something close to that.
Raising the Withers is not only possible but paramont in our work(what can sink can also rise) and modern anatomy tells us the “serratus thoracis” muscle is what makes it rise. It is fixed at its lower part on the first eight or nine ribs and at its higher part onto the upper inside of the shoulder blade .Chapter 8 .Racinet explains Baucher is very clear and diagramtic on it .
Ginger708;
Your observations are good.
When ‘correctly’ ridden bitless, the horse is ‘allowed’ to carry itself correctly and not forced into a specific frame.
Even in a bit, when the lower leg is correctly applied the back will lift.
neck raising muscle
Actually the muscles involved in lifting the neck at the withers are:
cervica lpart of rhomboid, cervical part of trapezius, capital spinal, splenius, thoracic part of rhomboid
When the head is placed behind the vertical while the head is raised, the actions of the named muscles are interfered with.
