Baucher method

[QUOTE=eagles;5050020]
Raising the Withers is not only possible but paramont in our work(what can sink can also rise) and modern anatomy tells us the “serratus thoracis” muscle is what makes it rise. It is fixed at its lower part on the first eight or nine ribs and at its higher part onto the upper inside of the shoulder blade .Chapter 8 .Racinet explains Baucher is very clear and diagramtic on it .[/QUOTE]

Are you saying that the wither on it’s own will rise? This part of the horse only, will lift and the horse will be balanced? I do not understand how muscles on the lower part of the ribs will lift a very small part of the horse? Please explain why all you want to do is basically have the horse ride around with the equivalent of his shoulder shrugged?

The lift of the withers is apparent. The shoulders are not attached in any bony way, only through muscles and ligaments, in the horse. The withers can be lifted away from the shoulder blades or dropped down towards them as if hunching, through muscular action of the attachments to the thorax. This is similar to what you as a human might do to draw your shoulders up in a hunching motion ( therefore dropping your “withers”) or you might draw your shoulder blades apart and your neck up, making you appear taller and “lifting your withers”.

If you have ever done a cat stretch in yoga or pilates, this is similar to what the horse does to lift the withers and “lift the back”, which innyoag iuvolved doing apelvic tilt and rounding the spine upwards so it stretches the spinal muscles and carries weight more efficiently.

The anatomy is correct, I won’t comment on the rest. Going to bascule over some jumps now.

No, Baucher did not develop the cavalry system here. But there was a frenchman (have to look for the name) who came over in the veryyyy late1800s/early 1900s for a couple of years as a consultant. Before Chamberlain by a long period of time. And Baucher had developed a methodical system for equitation, and that played into the ordered approach.

[QUOTE=CatOnLap;5050110]
The lift of the withers is apparent. The shoulders are not attached in any bony way, only through muscles and ligaments, in the horse. The withers can be lifted away from the shoulder blades or dropped down towards them as if hunching, through muscular action of the attachments to the thorax. This is similar to what you as a human might do to draw your shoulders up in a hunching motion ( therefore dropping your “withers”) or you might draw your shoulder blades apart and your neck up, making you appear taller and “lifting your withers”.

If you have ever done a cat stretch in yoga or pilates, this is similar to what the horse does to lift the withers and “lift the back”, which innyoag iuvolved doing apelvic tilt and rounding the spine upwards so it stretches the spinal muscles and carries weight more efficiently.

The anatomy is correct, I won’t comment on the rest. Going to bascule over some jumps now.[/QUOTE]

I actually do Forrest Yoga three days a week so I do have an understanding of what you are saying. Thank you I now am able to visualize in my head what eagles is trying to describe. However I am still interested as to the why you would just want that spot lifted and not just the whole back. I would thing that just like a cat / cow pose you would want the whole spine spine to arch and let the body follow. If I was to walk around with just my shoulders hunched forward I think that after a while I would suffer from bad posture and it would be painful.

well, if you are commenting on my comment re: withers lifted, it isnt only the withers… and you yourself gave a spot on description of how it is done. or, at least how i was able to do it with my mare (i have zero clue about what i am doing with this stuff)…

the horse while standing still assumes the position of correct body usage that we seek in motion. except i dont have to be in motion to get it!

i started just experimenting with different things by feel and little by little she was able to use her body correctly. !

now i can be standing still and ask her to connect and raise her withers and back etc etc this carries over to all ridden work.

ps - think of a horse working and asked to halt correctly, connected and on the aids - that is what it is. except i dont have to have the preceding movement to get it.

The actual one for lifting the withers is as I put it above , per , Dr Giniaux who worked with Master Racinet for many years to acuratly explain what he was seeing and doing scientificaly and Dr Deb Bennet and as diagramed and explained in Racinet explains Baucher chapter eight with a very detailed and exact scientic explanation of how this occurs

If anyone is interested in the science of the withers rising ,read that .

if you want the long story of how it all works Read “What Horses have told” me By Dr. Dominique Giniaux .

now i can be standing still and ask her to connect and raise her withers and back etc etc this carries over to all ridden work.

ps - think of a horse working and asked to halt correctly, connected and on the aids - that is what it is. except i dont have to have the preceding movement to get it.

Sounds like you have just discovered how to ride your horse on the aids.

[QUOTE=mbm;5050250]
well, if you are commenting on my comment re: withers lifted, it isnt only the withers… and you yourself gave a spot on description of how it is done. or, at least how i was able to do it with my mare (i have zero clue about what i am doing with this stuff)…[/QUOTE]

Actually if this post is directed at me then no I was referring to the post that I quoted from Eagles aka The Master or the post that I quoted from catonlap. Yes to get a horse to connect from back to front at a halt lets say right after you mount is not hard at all. One has to imagine that unless you do something really strange i.e; lands on back, poor saddle fit, hands pulling right away, cold back etc. The horse is about as balances and as natural as he can be. So to put your legs at the girth and to give the horse a little tickle at the girth is getting the horse to lift his back not just the withers.

the horse while standing still assumes the position of correct body usage that we seek in motion. except i dont have to be in motion to get it!

Well no nobody does really, I don’t really believe that you have to practice Baucher to come to this realization if you are using more leg than hand this will come naturally.

i started just experimenting with different things by feel and little by little she was able to use her body correctly. !

Rounding at the halt is correct however you have to beable to keep this feeling while the horse is in motion. That is where you feel and balance comes into play. The quieter you are with the hands an the more you are direct with the leg you will maintain connection during all transitions and gates

now i can be standing still and ask her to connect and raise her withers and back etc etc this carries over to all ridden work.

Once again good it seems that you have a concept of what basic connection is with out having to pay the mater $50.00 bucks a year to prove it.

ps - think of a horse working and asked to halt correctly, connected and on the aids - that is what it is. except i dont have to have the preceding movement to get it.

I think of where the misunderstanding is, is that some people are referring to connection as raising the withers. When actually you are feeling the whole back lift. That is connection your dressage foundation. Then by working transitions, lateral movements,etc. . By working on the horse adjustability in a gate i.e. keeping rhythm but asking for smaller steps not slower steps starts collection.

[QUOTE=eagles;5050297]
The actual one for lifting the withers is as I put it above , per , Dr Giniaux who worked with Master Racinet for many years to acuratly explain what he was seeing and doing scientificaly and Dr Deb Bennet and as diagramed and explained in Racinet explains Baucher chapter eight with a very detailed and exact scientic explanation of how this occurs

If anyone is interested in the science of the withers rising ,read that .

if you want the long story of how it all works Read “What Horses have told” me By Dr. Dominique Giniaux .[/QUOTE]

If you are a teacher and a trainer why can’t you explain what you mean. When I go to a lesson and a trainer ask me to do a movement and I ask them to explain further. The trainer explains themselves more clearly so I can under stand them better and do what they ask. I have not seen to many book collections in the actual riding arena. Actually I think I might be a little confused if my trainer ask me to flip through a book to get a concept they are supposed to explain while I’m on the back of a horse. It seems like us ammys seem to be able to explain what we are doing on our horses.

well, “Master” is usually a title awarded to an individual by others, based on some qualification or skill, or as a term of deference by those held enslaved.

yes, perhaps someone might define “master”.

I don’t think it’s something one adopts for oneself.:lol:

Just to be picky…

The withers are, by definition, the dorsal spinous processes of the more cranial thoracic vertebrae.
So on cannot raise the neck at the withers, strictly speaking.

To raise the withers, the trunk must be elevated between the forelimbs.

If I dood it I’m going to be in trouble, I dood it.

Eagles is master of the mustache and maybe his horses.:wink:

[QUOTE=Ghazzu;5050387]
Just to be picky…

The withers are, by definition, the dorsal spinous processes of the more cranial thoracic vertebrae.
So on cannot raise the neck at the withers, strictly speaking.

To raise the withers, the trunk must be elevated between the forelimbs.[/QUOTE]

I think you have put the disagreement in a nut shell it seems that Baucherests (sp?) want to work from the hand lift the neck and call that lightness. And this is just by what I am going on, by what has been written here. I do not believe that this is representative if french dressage riders. The rest of the dressage world wants to ride back to front. Lightness being not having to worry about the head the bit. The bit is there if we need it but head and bit is not first priority. The hilarity ensues discussing which is correct.

i do not think they lift the neck and call it lightness! that is really oversimplifying things.

what they are doing is lifting the hand so that the bit works on the corners of the mouth (instead of the bars) . they lift the hand so the horse pushes down and out into the bit.

also it is a fact that you can leverage the neck to get the horse to put more weight behind. i dont know enough about any of this to say more.

but it isnt that they are lifting the neck and think that means lightness!

did any of you watch the videos i posted?

as for why wouldn’t eagels give you a more indepth answer - why should he? every time he has attempted he gets railed on and told he doesn’t know what he is talking about!

so he is giving you where to find the info for yourself.

Yes. Horses must engage from the back to the front. It is also true that horses resist from the front to the back. If one relaxes the horse in front of the withers it is easy to engage the horse from the rear. These different approaches do not have to contadict one another.

funny thing about that. longlong ago, when I was studying under several German Masters, so qualified by the FN and lauded by their students, lifting the hands was what you were taught to do when the horse went hollow backed and head high. And yes, it took the pressure off the bars of the high headed horse and encouraged them to stretch down into contact. It is certainly not a technique exclusive to Baucher.

And if one is going to talk in anatomical terms as if one really knows the anatomy, one should at least get it right.

Thanks for confirming this Ghazzu, I know you know.

i do not think they lift the neck and call it lightness! that is really oversimplifying things.
what they are doing is lifting the hand so that the bit works on the corners of the mouth (instead of the bars) . they lift the hand so the horse pushes down and out into the bit.

When you have your horse connected through the back, how many times have you lifted your hands? I used to do it a lot. It was something I had to work hard to fix. and I can tell you that the first thing you are going to loose is connection. You may not feel the weight of the head anymore but you will loose the back.

also it is a fact that you can leverage the neck to get the horse to put more weight behind. i dont know enough about any of this to say more.

Leverage is force so they are forcing weight to the hind with a forward movement? how do they do this and keep the hind end active. If dressage is supposed to be light why would you need leverage?

but it isnt that they are lifting the neck and think that means lightness!

Sorry to offend that is what it sounds like to me maybe Eagles should explain himself better.

did any of you watch the videos i posted?

I did and the ones that were doing Dressage may be Baucherests in theory but they are not riding front to back.

as for why wouldn’t eagels give you a more indepth answer - why should he? every time he has attempted he gets railed on and told he doesn’t know what he is talking about!

so he is giving you where to find the info for yourself.

I have read many books on what I guess would be refereed to as Classical Dressage however all that I have found in those books are methods that are still used today. I seems to me that the master is getting something different from his books and has decided to train his interpretation on what he has learned. Therefore he should explain it.

[QUOTE=Don Raphaelo Rollkurista;5050476]
Yes. Horses must engage from the back to the front. It is also true that horses resist from the front to the back. If one relaxes the horse in front of the withers it is easy to engage the horse from the rear. These different approaches do not have to contadict one another.[/QUOTE]

I do apologize Don I should have stated this somewhere I am assuming we are talking about horses that are relaxed already. However I would still try my best to relax a horse with forward moment and bending before I would stop and just bend past the resistance. And if I do have to just stop and bend I am bending the whole body not just the neck still using leg first to outside rein.

Succinctly put.
Something to meditate on.