[QUOTE=ginger708;5050362]
I have not seen to many book collections in the actual riding arena. [/hinkQUOTE]
That’s right. They should be kept in the stalls where the horses can read them.
So which book are you reading, mbm?
[QUOTE=Ghazzu;5050387]
Just to be picky…
The withers are, by definition, the dorsal spinous processes of the more cranial thoracic vertebrae.
So on cannot raise the neck at the withers, strictly speaking.
To raise the withers, the trunk must be elevated between the forelimbs.[/QUOTE]
And how would the trunk be elevated between the forelimbs? The horse is already on tiptoes.
[QUOTE=ginger708;5050420]
I think you have put the disagreement in a nut shell it seems that Baucherests (sp?) want to work from the hand lift the neck and call that lightness. And this is just by what I am going on, by what has been written here. I do not believe that this is representative if french dressage riders. The rest of the dressage world wants to ride back to front. Lightness being not having to worry about the head the bit. The bit is there if we need it but head and bit is not first priority.[/QUOTE]
Imho this is what BAD baucherists do. Lifting the neck is to change the balance, and ideally cause the horse to step forward into a (light) connection. The resulting change of balance allows for lightness which should be reward (no matter what the school). This is the ultimate back to front riding if done correctly, the horse chooses to seek the hand/be actively forward rather than be pushed into it. (Germanic schools traditionally made sure that the horse was gathered in halts as well, up/open/ready to step forward as well). Any sustained lifting (particularly in motion) must be calculated, or it will only cause a horse to brace more, and is mistaken. Lifting into the corners of the mouth is to mobilize the jaw and cause it to seek fdo. Two different intentions.
I agree that the arrogance of a latin influence is NOT representative of french nor latin riders, many are very humble in sharing their knowledge and do not engender an us vs them attitude, but rather seek to educate and help the horse.
As to the use of a curb (particularly like the 10" shank show on the website) merely leverages against the jaw. The 2 bits have two totally different uses, and every educated horseman should know the differences, and progressively develop a horse as to there uses.
Then you can’t read what I said .
The lowering of the haunches AND the raising of the withers is PARAMONT to the horses neck rising on its own . The Way of Baucher is to elliminate resistance in the jaw THAT FLOWS TO ALL PARTS OF THE HORSES BODY and then make sure the pelvis tucks the back rises the withers elevate (which them most certainly can ) and the neck rise with out contraction and the head hang verticlay .You keep acting because we have found the doorway to the ENTIRE horse from the mouth that we only work on the head . Why dont’ you try reading Dr. Deb Bennet and many others who can explain in great detail how the jaw effects the entire horse and validates the bit and the flexions as a source of over all relaxtion .
Not sure what is meant about the latins attitude etc as I am not latin and the the pushiest most argumentative group I have ever seen is from the other schools who attacked every time I tried to make a polite training suggestion on Baucher by calling it Snake oil etc .
If you dont think you can use long shanks ona bit=, I understand , just get better hands …
All of us want to be riding our horses in motion not standing still all the time doing flexions. Nuno himself says somewhere in his book Reflections on Equestrian Art, that we dont need to do alot of flexions on horses that are naturally light and cooperative in training. Baucherist method becomes very useful on horses that are more difficult. Hugely helpful with horses that have had bad training previously. On horses that are open books adding systematic jaw flexions to their work more gradually can make them better and better. That a given horse is completly in front of the leg, to the point where we are “letting the horse move forward,” not “making the horse move forward,” is an essential element in motionless jaw flexions. If a horse is in this state of preparation a horse prepared with stationary jaw flexion will move off from the back to the front like a well trained light horse developed in the German way. At this point the debate will only be about how much power and forward a given rider wants while in motion. How frequently one wants speed changes and transitions in general. Here is a question. Regarding actual speed. When I look at videos of todays top GP horses it is my observation that many, from Rusty to Totilas, are trotting faster in halfpass than many American judges find appropriate for a training level horse in working trot. Maybe that question would be for a different thread. As for raising of the neck. This too can be useful but like everything else in moderation. Is this not true of all things in dressage or with horses in general? Just a few observations. thank you for the time.
Don Raphaelo Rollkurista
Imho the way of good baucherists is to never had a need to ‘eliminate resistances’ but rather to have the horse choose a positive reaction in the first place. That is a big differenc in an attitude toward training. And imho all good riders do understand that mobility of the jaw (chewing and swallowing) is a key part of balance and especially of lightness. By allowing the in hand work to be done separately, the education of the horse is more easily progressive (again, the baucherists do not have a corner on the market…but many use it to try to define a market…which is devise to learning).
And although a long(er) shank (which was used by all full bridles until about 40 years ago), riders grew up riding, but excessive length is very agressive even if one knows how to ride by the weight of the reins alone, and the horse horse is properly trained. It does trap the horse behind the hand, and often causes the horse to boil over (literally/figuretively). That said excessive length, and no progressive training (in a snaffle) often causes an artificial frame (a la the the first method/with a hollow back).
It is not ‘tucking the pelvis’ which lightens and balances the horse, because a horse may have a ‘tucked’ pelvis and still stand over too much ground. It is the compression folding of all the hindleg joints which allows the horse to be balanced/collected/etc.
Iagree with Don R…especially on the fast(er) tempo of many horses showing today. That speed has NOTHING to do with collection, which they are supporsed to be showing. For me, it is to cover up that the horses are very much on the forehand, and if not ridden at that tempo would literally curl over.
I actually like that the horses are moving on more. I know there can be debate on this as well as everything else. I think these modern horses should move strongly forward. Provided they are in balance and come back with perfect lightness.
yeah!!! a real discussion!
thanks to all who are participating positively! 
Quite delicious. I love lively discussion which makes you think. I’ve been evaluating points made here all weekend and looking for more reading and watching my horse and finding him respond etc. Love it.
Then you can’t read what I said .
The lowering of the haunches AND the raising of the withers is PARAMONT to the horses neck rising on its own . The Way of Baucher is to elliminate resistance in the jaw THAT FLOWS TO ALL PARTS OF THE HORSES BODY and then make sure the pelvis tucks the back rises the withers elevate (which them most certainly can ) and the neck rise with out contraction and the head hang verticlay .
I have read your posts and yes you do say the above over and over. I am asking you to explain the mechanics of what you are doing.
Do you assume that the horse is going to be tense in the jaw as soon as you mount?
If this is the case why would the horse be tense every time you mount?
If the horse is tense, it sounds as if you just stop the horse and bend the neck left to right until the horse gives or goes backwards? If this is not the case what do you do when you get on the horse to start schooling?
You keep acting because we have found the doorway to the ENTIRE horse from the mouth that we only work on the head . Why dont’ you try reading Dr. Deb Bennet and many others who can explain in great detail how the jaw effects the entire horse and validates the bit and the flexions as a source of over all relaxtion .
( underlined) Well where is the mouth of the horse? lLast time I checked it’s on the head. If you are working are you not working on the head. I am reading what you are writing.
I am asking why is working from the mouth better than working the whole body?
Deb Bennet is not here telling that the mouth is the gateway to the body you are.
Not sure what is meant about the latins attitude etc as I am not latin and the the pushiest most argumentative group I have ever seen is from the other schools who attacked every time I tried to make a polite training suggestion on Baucher by calling it Snake oil etc .
Pushy is as pushy does I did not call Boucher a snake oil
sales man I called you one. The reason why is that you are taking what you want from a method telling everybody it’s something that is it not, and calling it The Baucher method thinking that because most people have not heard about Baucher methods you could sucker a few people over to you website.
If you dont think you can use long shanks ona bit=, I understand , just get better hands …
Actually my cousins in Texas used to raise barrel racers I have and can use a curb. My draft was started in a tom thumb curb for the breaks the guy that owned him could not stop him with out a curb. My hands are fine I just don’t need mine to ride as much as you need yours.
The trunk is connected to the forelimb by muscles.
It can therefore be raised or lowered in relation to the forelimb by contraction or relaxation of muscles, no?
[QUOTE=ginger708;5050791]
Deb Bennet is not here telling that the mouth is the gateway to the body you are…[/QUOTE]
first, i think you are over/under reading what is being posted by posters.
2nd re: the above - any good trainer will say exactly what is above - that the mouth/jaw are the keys to the entire horse. and keeping that in mind does not make you a hand rider!
first, i think you are over/under reading what is being posted by posters.
Now you have to explain how you over or under read. I read the words as they are written on the screen and ask questions accordingly. I apologize that I have decided not to take what eagels has to say as gospel, just as he has not taken what I have had to say as gospel.
Therefore I am asking questions as to how he works his hoses daily. What he expects when he gets on and how he corrects what he does not like.
2nd re: the above - any good trainer will say exactly what is above - that the mouth/jaw are the keys to the entire horse. and keeping that in mind does not make you a hand rider!
I have never heard a trainer say that the mouth is the key to the horse. And I have audited clinics in person with Gary Rockwell, Robert Dover, Wolfgang May, George Morris, and I have a subscription to dressage clinic .com. . Yes a relaxed chewing foaming mouth is a sign that you are working correctly but the mouth is not the key to the body. If that is the case why do dressage trainers talk about your leg? Why have I always been told to do a proper halt it’s Legs, Seat, Hands? And I assure you this came from more than just one good trainer.
i am no biomechanics person, but if a horses mouth/jaw is tense/tight it can not be relaxed in its poll/neck/back.
as far as i understand there are various methods to ensure that the mouth/jaw stays soft and tension free.
Oh on a tense horse the jaw is pretty key to me, but why not send the horse forwards once the jaw is soft?
That was the difference in my training now and my horses first training. He wasnt sent forward, but just little collected (mincing) steps.
His canter was hop rather than the nice ground covering he does today.
Does he struggle with balance whenever we get him long? Yes. So we bring him back and then slowly lengthen again
[QUOTE=mbm;5050886]
i am no biomechanics person, but if a horses mouth/jaw is tense/tight it can not be relaxed in its poll/neck/back.
as far as i understand there are various methods to ensure that the mouth/jaw stays soft and tension free.[/QUOTE]
But what I am saying is that you can relax the jaw by working the body. Three Loop Serpentine, leg yields, and shoulder ins are great for relaxing the jaws. If this is to advance for a rider then smalls circles when the horse speeds up or gets tense. Spirals are a great tool for more novice riders.
It has been my experience that a lot of tenseness in the Jaw comes from hands being to high or arms pointing down towards the knees. Elbows locked and hands towards my knees and locked elbows has been my problem that creeps in when I am nervous. So I am very hard on my self and self check often and have for the most part over come this flaw.
Does it really matter if you front before back or back before front (accepting the bit vs building impulsion? (both ending in collection)?
I personally like getting my horses to move off the leg and go forward, then work on creating a frame to collect all that energy.
I guess it depends on how you are working the front. It Seems to be a hard answer to get. I would love to hear from someone that rides The Master’s method to explain what they do when the first mount a horse. How do they warm up.
MBM says that she can get the horse to lift the back after she mounts by using her leg. However if a horse is tense just standing at the mounting block I’m not sure this would lead to relaxation. I can get my horse to lift his back in the cross ties by running my fingers down his belly from back to front, that doesn’t mean he is ready for a cigarette. He is just standing in the cross ties lifting his back and dropping it.
Funny how a training question was surrounded by name calling , sarcasms and a just plain low class attitude . I will try and move away the debris for those who might realy want the answer to the question so coated with venom because so many like what I am teaching and come here to learn it.
First about the bits,. it is not the length of the shank that evens determins how severe the bit is . It is the distance from the purchase to the top of the mouth piece that creates the leverage . Ask a bit maker if this is confusing . .Were you to have one of my bits in your hands and could measure that and knew what you were seeing you would know it is not as severe as it looks . I guese I better retake all those photos on my site becuase I’m not seeing tight reins and overbent horses .
Every horse every day can go through somthing that creates tension . Eever wake up with a stiff neck or back even though you did not think you did somthing to cause it Ever see a horse get cast in the stall ? Maybe it did and you never saw it as well Horses get spooked and make quick reactions, we just don’t allways know about .
SO before I ever mount my horse I do him a courtesy and I check these things with flexions . I have been taught to watch for certian signs the horse gives me in the direction of the ears etc and can tell at once if it is stiff today on the left or right, has a tight back etc BEFORE I put my weight on and add to the pain FROM THE JAW . We do not saw back and forth on the horse we have a left and right flexion of the Atlas , we use the snafle and curb if in a double seperate and together all done with soft opening and closing of the hand nmot brute force , and AFTER that we can see if the neck is free with a flexion . IF NOT we work longer to see if the flexions can free that spot . Mesrter Racinet also taught some manipulations of the flexions alone were not enough but I find I seldom need those unles the horse is really injured . However I CAN feel the subluxation and I CAN see it is released from the flexion as he taught me to do .
If anyone has ever done allmost any type of sports , people stretch first and this is like a stretch and a language between the horse and rider . Some times the horse is very free in all the flexions , it takes a few seconds and we get on OR go to work in as we choose for that horse at that time . This means I KNOW tjheior is nothing PHYSICAL from stopping the horse from the work and I am not PUSHIHG him through a physicla problem which would add tension and stress.
After I get on, as the horse walks a bit free I ask for a few more to make sure my weight and the moving is not a problem .I also checked this in the work in hand by the way at the movment also . If I find an area, a leg that is stiff etc I ask that leg to work ,maybe a shoulder in and WHILE that leg is stretching a little and slowly I ask for a flexion . WHEN I get it that leg is relaxed because the flexion goes to the spot being worked and releases the tension their AKA the door to to the entire horse NOT just the head .
Of course we know the brain is in the head that controls the entire body and their is NO pain if the brain says so ,and their IS pain if any part of the brain is deprived of oxygen. NOT because somthing IS really wrong all the time , the brain is sending the WRONG signa lbecuae that section is deprived of the blood and what ever part that is the brains screams PAIN at that area. . I dont want to get into the fact the horses skull in the creases are movable and the flexions can also help recirculate this blood supply as the tension is released . That is cranial therapy but it hits on part of it and I can do this on the ground as well if I discover a problem in hand .I is better to fix it in the work in hand first . Of course these are things science has taught us long after Baucher and he had no way to know BUT it does give multiple layers as to why he got such great results and we can as well and best yet we do every day no matter what people say .
On Dr. Bennet ever read her essay on Baucher and why the Jaw flexions work so well ?
Now for those who keep ranting and name calling you are over tense in the jaw for sure since your fingers are doing the typing I can hope a good jaw flexion might relax those rigid digits .I can highly recomend a good double bridle (with a big purchase AND a long shank , why not ) and some jaw flexions . However in some cases here I am very tempted to say maybe the cranked nose band would not be so bad and I think I see why it was invented .
[QUOTE=ginger708;5050942]
I guess it depends on how you are working the front. It Seems t
MBM says that she can get the horse to lift the back after she mounts by using her leg. However if a horse is tense just standing at the mounting block I’m not sure this would lead to relaxation. I can get my horse to lift his back in the cross ties by running my fingers down his belly from back to front, that doesn’t mean he is ready for a cigarette. He is just standing in the cross ties lifting his back and dropping it.[/QUOTE]
no. that is not what i said!
what i said was: i can ask my horse to “connect” (raise its back/withers etc, transfer weight behind, etc) at a halt. no movement needed.
in my specific case it doesn’t really have anything to do with tension… more that my horse didn’t understand how to use her body and wasn’t ever able to connect the dots by being ridden forward.
once i tried other stuff i was able to show her what i wanted and this did transfer over to forward activity.
maybe i would never of experimented had i never had this horse - who knows… <shrug>
