Baucher method

[princessfluffybritch]

I guess what I do is get the horse moving off the leg, then ask for tiny “flexions”. Then when she is staying soft in the hand without being behind it, I ask her to follow the bit down (long and low), then I work on a bit of lengthening and shortening, and that usually gets her back nice and stretched out and relaxed. Then I build on those things, asking for consistency and a little more, riding circles and serpentines, etc, and eventually asking for a shoulder-fore. This should be over a period of weeks, not 5 minutes, LOL

I don’t know why I’m rambling, I just am. And of course, it’s never that simple.

Any advice?

[Ghazzu]

@eagles;5050955

t
Of course we know the brain is in the head that controls the entire body and their is NO pain if the brain says so ,and their IS pain if any part of the brain is deprived of oxygen. NOT because somthing IS really wrong all the time , the brain is sending the WRONG signa lbecuae that section is deprived of the blood and what ever part that is the brains screams PAIN at that area. .

I’m not a neurobiologist, but from what I’ve read pain due to hypoperfusion is limited to the thalamus, not to “what ever part” may be hypoperfused.

I dont want to get into the fact the horses skull in the creases are movable and the flexions can also help recirculate this blood supply as the tension is released . That is cranial therapy but it hits on part of it and I can do this on the ground as well if I discover a problem in hand .I is better to fix it in the work in hand first .

Are you implying that jaw flexions increase cerebral blood flow?

Now for those who keep ranting and name calling you are over tense in the jaw for sure since your fingers are doing the typing I can hope a good jaw flexion might relax those rigid digits .

Thanks, but I just had surgery to relax mine. Chronic tendonitis due to years of physical labor…though I find the physical labor itself quite relaxing.

I’m more than a little bemused by this latest post of yours, though, as it seemed to me that the thread was drifting into some pretty reasonable discussion, and here you come flinging foam all over the monitor…

[mbm]

actually i thought Eagles post was quite informative and actually pretty common sensical(is that a word?)

it makes total sense to me to check the horse before beginning work to see how they are doing.

i have always been taught to do this via mounted work in the first few minutes of the ride - but i like the idea of being able to do small flexions to see how the horse is feeling etc.

i think ALL of us should just stop with the personal attacks, innuendos etc. it is really just childish and doesn’t help at all.

i know that Ghazzu is a vet - but i also know that differing vets have differing ideas about things… so … <shrug> i would say more questioning is needed

[princessfluffybritch]

Eagles, your “long quote” sounds pretty good to me.

And I agree with you on bits. It’s not the bit, it’s the hand. I used to ride my gaited horse with the long shank curb. Why? Because I just wanted to ride with my pinkies. That horse is wonderfully soft and on the bit. If she was ridden heavy handed, she would absolutely freak out and bolt away.

I think alot of riders think of curb bits as more control-not refinement. (I’m talking in general). I do enjoy it when a horse invites himself to the bit!

I use my hands to say “would you like to dance with me” and when my horse comes onto the bit he’s saying “Yes,I’d like to dance with you”.

[mickeydoodle]

physician here (MD) hypoperfusion in the brain does not equal pain in a limb, or back, etc. It can cause pain in the head.

[mbm]

[QUOTE=princessfluffybritches;5050991]
I guess what I do is get the horse moving off the leg, then ask for tiny “flexions”. Then when she is staying soft in the hand without being behind it, I ask her to follow the bit down (long and low), then I work on a bit of lengthening and shortening, and that usually gets her back nice and stretched out and relaxed. Then I build on those things, asking for consistency and a little more, riding circles and serpentines, etc, and eventually asking for a shoulder-fore. This should be over a period of weeks, not 5 minutes, LOL

I don’t know why I’m rambling, I just am. And of course, it’s never that simple.

Any advice?[/QUOTE]

there are some super DVDs from the German FN on the basics of getting the horse loose and supple. really highly recommend them. or of course the Klimke vids.

I am sure there are similar vids from the french school - i just dont know what they are

[ideayoda]

I think what causes some of the negative responses toward the OP is the seeming presumption that what the OP states has not been presented here before, or that it is information that has not heard before. It is better to assume there are many who are interested, who do want to discuss theory, w/o advertising within our posts. Also, maestro is usually a title given to a older person by his peers, and rarely/never something which one states about oneself (at least with N.O. or von N or etc).

And a springboard which we used at one point was a discussion of the 4 ecoles presentation…the meeting which was originally discussed between von Neindorff and Gracioso which finally came to fruition in Paris (along with a day long meeting about the histories of the different schools/biomechanics/etc). It was fascinating to see the ‘strong suits’ and weak points of the various schools (Spain/Portugal/srs/cadre noir). Each ‘suffered’ and ‘shone’ because of their own systems training decisions.

Whether others choose to follow Racinet, or agree with his POV (vs other baucherists), can lead to great and in depth discussions (as it often did when he wrote articles for the D&CT some years ago), but it is not necessarily gospel.

[eagles]

Actualy I am a certified acupuncturist in Both the Chinese and Korean systems . The Korean system through the work of the founder of Korean hand therapy Dr. Tae Woo Yoo O.M.D PHD has confirmed the pain association between the vertebral and carotid blood flow (and lack of ) in regards to refered pain from the brain .
.One can read any of his many research papers and published books and studies on the subject and choose to believe if acupuncture and its theories works or not . SDnce I am trained in these things and new that aspect I included it and you are free to believe it or not .However that very ancient system does say it is valid .

[alicen]

[QUOTE=Ghazzu;5050844]
The trunk is connected to the forelimb by muscles.
It can therefore be raised or lowered in relation to the forelimb by contraction or relaxation of muscles, no?[/QUOTE]

And how does one , mounted, ask the horse to contract these muscles? I’m having a hard time wraping my mind around the reality of this, but then, I frequently have difficulties with reality, or what people tell me is reality.

[spirithorse]

Alicen
I can tell you this from my perspective; when you rise the head by raising your hands upward [not rearward] the horse will rise its neck using the muscle of the wither area. As this is being done you will feel the forehand actually lighten as the horse sets more weight toward the hindquarters. You will feel the scapula swinging more forward and the horse will be able to give a longer stride on the forehand.

[alicen]

When you raise the head from where to where?

[spirithorse]

Upward from the natural carriage which is when the poll is approximately 4 to 6 inches above the wither line.
To school the horse to correctly rise the neck from the base, let your hands go forward and then lift upward with a gentle shaking of the bit. As your horse learns to feel the rise, it will eventually respond to a very soft rise of your fingers only…

[mbm]

(thats not how i was able to achieve it, but then again i just kinda fell into it by experimenting)

again, can we please" stop with the person stuff? those kinds of comments don’t do anything to move the topic along.

[Ghazzu]

@princessfluffybritches;5051026

And I agree with you on bits. It’s not the bit, it’s the hand. I used to ride my gaited horse with the long shank curb. Why? Because I just wanted to ride with my pinkies. That horse is wonderfully soft and on the bit. If she was ridden heavy handed, she would absolutely freak out and bolt away.

I think alot of riders think of curb bits as more control-not refinement. (I’m talking in general). I do enjoy it when a horse invites himself to the bit!

I use my hands to say “would you like to dance with me” and when my horse comes onto the bit he’s saying “Yes,I’d like to dance with you”.

It’s not an accident that the saddle seat medal class is known as the “Good Hands” class.

[Ghazzu]

@eagles;5051180

Actualy I am a certified acupuncturist in Both the Chinese and Korean systems . The Korean system through the work of the founder of Korean hand therapy Dr. Tae Woo Yoo O.M.D PHD has confirmed the pain association between the vertebral and carotid blood flow (and lack of ) in regards to refered pain from the brain .
.One can read any of his many research papers and published books and studies on the subject and choose to believe if acupuncture and its theories works or not . SDnce I am trained in these things and new that aspect I included it and you are free to believe it or not .However that very ancient system does say it is valid .

How did we get from jaw flexions to acupuncture?

(I don’t doubt at all that acupuncture can have effects on blood flow.)

[BaroquePony]

How did we get from jaw flexions to acupuncture?

I think it came up somehow that certain riders are a “pain in the neck” (and brain) for the horse from incorrect or non-existent flexions.

[netg]

[QUOTE=alicen;5051212]
And how does one , mounted, ask the horse to contract these muscles? I’m having a hard time wraping my mind around the reality of this, but then, I frequently have difficulties with reality, or what people tell me is reality.[/QUOTE]

I’m setting myself up for a possible massacre here, but because I think Alicen is asking honestly, and because there’s a dramatic difference in my horse from one picture to another on the same day… I’m posting these despite the fact I’m clearly out of shape, in too huntery a position, open fingers, don’t have my elbows bent enough, and a host of other riding sins. Also, my horse is showing his tendency to curl I have been working with getting him over as I work on increasingly getting him to accept the bit more and more instead of fearing it.

However… when one discusses “raising the withers” these photos demonstrate it well, I think. My horse was very tense at this show. In this first photo, I have not pushed him into contact. His head is raised, but the base of his neck is lowered, and so is his back. There is a distinct dip behind the saddle and in front of his hips, as he is hollow. You can also actually see the muscles on the underside of his neck are tight and working.
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4075/4809878926_28778b2d3c.jpg

On the other hand, across this diagonal I had pushed him forward with my legs, and he responded by stepping forward into contact. As we achieved contact, despite his ducking slightly behind vertical, the energy my legs were imparting then directed somewhat upward. You can see a triangular muscle being worked right in front of the saddle/his withers, and don’t see the muscles on the underside of his neck working. He’s still using too many muscles to tuck his head and not as relaxed as would be ideal, but he at least demonstrates to you which muscles would be used to lift the withers. His back is also much flatter behind the saddle - because he’s using not just the easy to see muscles in front of his withers, but the ones Ghazzu mentions as well. Keep in mind this is a horse/rider in training level - I’m posting because the angle of the sun gives you a great chance to see the muscles in action, but we demonstrate this nowhere near the ability a higher level horse would/should.
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4020/4593341434_65429dd839.jpg

(And if you can’t tell from the above - I disagree that lifting the horse’s head will get it to lift its back, as my horse’s back is clearly lifted much more in the photo with his head LOWER. Lifting a horse’s head can easily make it hollow its back, just as asking a horse to lower its head can. It’s about getting the horse to use its body overall, not just how you locate the head. However, I do agree that if a horse has a locked jaw you can’t really get this. I tend to do leg yields to get my horse to soften - get his body softer, and the head goes where I want without me trying. We also do a lot of figure 8’s, circles, serpentines, other softening maneuvers as mentioned in this therad. At this point, “head where I want” includes the nose not tucking too much, and light but real contact.)

[Ghazzu]

It’s about getting the horse to use its body overall, not just how you locate the head.
Ding ding ding! We have a winner!

PS the second photo is lovely.

[mbm]

(lifting the horses head ala PK etc is to induce the horse to lower its head and seek the bit )

NetG - great pics!

[ideayoda]

Lifting a la PK are to mobilize the jaw and open it and get it to seek the hand NOT merely to lower the neck. Neither pictures shows a connected horse…one which stays out to the bit and follows the bit. It is a lovely horse with a naturally good body carriage to be sure. But, the first has a slightly broken outline at C3 (withers are raised in both pix), and the second is stuck behind the hand or it would be opening the throatlatch as energy is added. Certainly going btv will leverage the chest into a kind of lifting of the chest, but the forefeet will be placed where the face is pointed which is very shortened. The intention of lifting (the bit) has to be enough to get the horse to CHOOSE to mobilize the jaw and then to choose to go forward (or down or out depending upon what is needed). AND is initially done standing to change the balance/use of the hindlegs, have it willing to step forward. Leg yielding will help the horse to stay more up/open as well as put the horse between the aids, but it is suppling rather than engaging (like si/t/r are). Lifting of a horse like the one in the pix would only serve to close it more unless the jaw is mobile and the throatlatch ‘openable’.