[QUOTE=spirithorse;5051742]
Beasmom;
Just might suprise a few folks…I did not post those videos to show perfection…I have no problem with my mistakes…:D:D:D:D[/QUOTE]
I got your back spirithorse. I’m sure if this does happen MBM will be riding for Mr.Moosestach anyways.
Gustav Steinbrecht “The Gymnasium of the Horse”
“Motion is the element of the horse and all motion starts in the hindquarters. If therefore the flexibility of the hindquarters must be the ultimate purpose of all dressage training, this is no way means that lateral bending of poll, neck, and spine are unnecessary. Rather, the flexibility of these parts must first be obtained so that it can then be used as a means for the main purpose, namely to work the hindquarters”.
[QUOTE=ToN Farm;5051755]
Gustav Steinbrecht “The Gymnasium of the Horse”
“Motion is the element of the horse and all motion starts in the hindquarters. If therefore the flexibility of the hindquarters must be the ultimate purpose of all dressage training, this is no way means that lateral bending of poll, neck, and spine are unnecessary. Rather, the flexibility of these parts must first be obtained so that it can then be used as a means for the main purpose, namely to work the hindquarters”.[/QUOTE]
That would make sense 
Wouldnt the jaw/poll/neck stop the hind from engaging were it tense and stifled at connection?
no wonder there are never any real trainers on the dressage board - or if there are they hide behind screen names…
you folks are unbelievable.
ToN - did you watch the videos i posted? did you think there was no forward energy in any of them?
FYI
My cavalry farrier that worked on my OTTB for several years showed me how to tell if a horse is pushing off the hindquarter. If the horse is wearing balanced shoes, the hind shoes will wear down on both sides equally and rapidly. If the wear is on the toe, the horse is just lifting the leg rather than moving naturally with the push which occurs when the hindquarter allows the hindleg to extend under the torso.
To TON. Perfect! Bravo!
[QUOTE=eagles;5051588]
If you ever saw the footage of him recieving his awards in Portugal as a Master from the Portuguese school in front of thousands he was riding my horse Nepal . I think he knows me .[/QUOTE]
Eagles, from where/whom did you receive or how did you earn the title of “Master”?
[QUOTE=ToN Farm;5051755]
Gustav Steinbrecht “The Gymnasium of the Horse”
“Motion is the element of the horse and all motion starts in the hindquarters. If therefore the flexibility of the hindquarters must be the ultimate purpose of all dressage training, this is no way means that lateral bending of poll, neck, and spine are unnecessary. Rather, the flexibility of these parts must first be obtained so that it can then be used as a means for the main purpose, namely to work the hindquarters”.[/QUOTE]
Steinbrecht’s book has some of the best descriptors of the shoulder-in. He has great discussion on training…I like the book as one of my favorite references.
But…if you actually read his book, he manages to take every opportunity to disparage Baucher.
So, it isn’t either/or…it is BOTH…you have to do both…create flexibility and mobility AND engage the hindquarter.
Disclaimer - I’m not defending eagles and don’t necessarily agree with his posts.
The point I wanted to address is there is a lot of misconception about flexions and mobilization of the jaw and Steinbrecht is not the only answer.
no wonder there are never any real trainers on the dressage board - or if there are they hide behind screen names…
Wow. So much for --can we please stop with the personal attacks–
It’s Ok for YOU to insult everyone, I guess.
"Motion is the element of the horse and all motion starts in the hindquarters. If therefore the flexibility of the hindquarters must be the ultimate purpose of all dressage training, this is no way means that lateral bending of poll, neck, and spine are unnecessary. Rather, the flexibility of these parts must first be obtained so that it can then be used as a means for the main purpose, namely to work the hindquarters
Chickens and eggs…
[QUOTE=mbm;5051552]
this book also has great explanations and pictures of standing flexions for those that are interested[/QUOTE]
Thanks for that reference. Can anyone describe unmounted “jaw flexions”?
Apart from what the dentist might do, or teasing horsey with an apple, or adding rocks to the grain, one can only wonder.
[QUOTE=mbm;5051800]
ToN - did you watch the videos i posted? did you think there was no forward energy in any of them?[/QUOTE]
Well, yeah, but so does a race horse.
Thanks for that reference. Can anyone describe unmounted “jaw flexions”?
Apart from what the dentist might do, or teasing horsey with an apple, or adding rocks to the grain, one can only wonder.
I flex my pony’s head and neck in the barn aisle while grooming. He is green and stiff (Welsh Cob Sect. D), but he is built like a tank and just learning all kinds of things. I taught him to move “away from my leg” in the aisle also … including both “on the girth” and “behind the girth”.
All of this stuff is basic horse “breaking” 101.
Their is no "wonder " in jaw flexions But you do have to see it and then feel it for the release. Anyone who has seen a horse softly open its mouth and swallow has some idea , but their is a bit more for a total release where the tounge portrudes a bit in and out and it is on the inward motion the full release occurs . I suggest IF anyone really wants to know to find someone who does them and observe-take a lesson . It can be frustrating with just reading which is why I also made a DVD showing it up close with various flexions .
Eggy says ‘chickens and eggs’ to my Steinbrecht quote. I don’t know what that means. Pluvinel says that Steinbrecht dissed Baucher’s training. I didn’t post the Steinbrecht words to support Bacherism, but rather as a response to Lstevenson’s post:
I think the above is just totally incorrect.
We can find articles and quotes from masters or BNT’s to support whatever each of us believes.
[QUOTE=Kyzteke;5051511]
OK, I’ll give you that.
And having a keyboard and an opinion does not make any other poster on this board knowledgable either.
So how come we have to assume that you and the other nay-sayers know what you are talking about and the OP is a “snake-oil salemans”, etc.
Can’t you ALL be full of sh!t?
So let us all sort it out…I’m thinking I don’t need to be saved by yet another “expert” from COTH-land.
In other words, I ain’t seeing any videos of you guys either, so why should I take your opinion on the knowledge of the OP?
I think Anky makes one of the ugliest pictures alive riding a horse – obviously many people disagree. But some don’t.
So I strong suspect alot of this comes down to what our eyes like…I like the idea AND the vision of lightness & expression and I see very little of it in the ring today. So I am interested in investigating other roads that might offer that aspect of horsemanship.
If you think it’s nonsense, then don’t embrace it, but I’m not seeing that the OP is preaching any methods that are any worse than much of what is practiced today already…[/QUOTE]
I agree that those Anky/Rollkur riders are ugly.
I have discovered for myself that Alois Podhajsky (Spanish riding school) is the best of both worlds. His book “The complete training of horse and rider” has explained to me why the headset of vertical/slightly ahead of vertical is so important; you create the impulsion from riding briskly forward into soft hands, gradually tweaking the horse to bend at the poll so that the horse has contact to the bit with the bars or his jaw. He claims that if a horse is overbent, the bit will not be on a contact with the bars. He writes that if a horse travels with his head behind the vertical, it’s from creating collection too soon.
I find that watching the Lippizan (sp) stallions perform shows me all the things I want, lightness, willingness, proper collection and properly on the bit, and keeping their spirit and expression while doing so. They do look happy. I haven’t seen many horses, Baucher, or the top competitors, look very happy in recent years.His book explains the “why’s” of what’s proper. There are so many good points he makes in the book, it’s worth reading the book rather than me listing all the important quotes from the book.
Headset is very important. It’s the framework that “collects” the energy created by riding forward ; the frame being the inviting soft hands
Sorry, I was discussing poll and neck flexions. Jaw flexions are different … but can also be done in the aisle. I am lazy and don’t love ground work. I will do it, but … ugh … I actually like to mosey around on top of the horse. I know, bad me.
Eggy says ‘chickens and eggs’ to my Steinbrecht quote. I don’t know what that means
TON, it was just shorthand for :
Which came first- the chicken or the egg?
[QUOTE=alicen;5052027]
Thanks for that reference. Can anyone describe unmounted “jaw flexions”?
Apart from what the dentist might do, or teasing horsey with an apple, or adding rocks to the grain, one can only wonder.[/QUOTE]
the flexions in that book are with the handler on the ground. there are lots and lots of pics.
as for forward. the comments made earlier in the thread was that there was NO forward/impulsion in french/baucher horses.
the videos prove otherwise.
When asking for the release of the jaw through the flexions, it’s important to wait for the poll to relax, too. Otherwise, it isn’t a true release.
Someone asked earlier about whether a rider would put the horse through all of this each time horse is ridden. Not always. Asking for a release through flexion is the quickest way to measure horse’s attentiveness. If she’s paying attention and we have good transmittal, I’ll get on after only a flexion or two. But if she’s reluctant to yield her jaw, I know her mind isn’t with me. Some people prefer to resolve this while riding, I prefer to do it from the ground.
It isn’t just that the flexions help eliminate resistances throughout horse’s body. It’s the quickest way I know to ask, “are you with me?” before I start my ride.
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