Baucher method

[ADM7040]

[QUOTE=ginger708;5051704]
I do the same thing it’s called grooming. I just want to know why the horse need so much preflight checks before you get on? And what is going on that the horse is so stiff all the time?[/QUOTE]

I am pretty sure that you were the one who posted your long bio that culminated at training level dressage. In that bio, you stated that you were in your 30’s, but your posts come across as being written by a snarky teenage girl. You would gain better credibility if you could improve your writing to reflect the maturity that a 30 year old should have.

This is a public board so you are certainly entitled to continue as before. If so, I will (and I’m sure some others as well) simply add you to my Ignore list so that I can continue to read the interesting posts on this thread without having to wade through the muck.

[ginger708]

Oh O I just got nicked by the internet police :eek:

[spirithorse]

Childish behavior is a trait that all of us posters demonstrate at one time or another…including me.

and for our information, I discovered the following regarding the U.S. Cavalry. I also am researching the extent that Baucher actually influenced the U.S. Cavalry, because when I was young I personally knew two ex-cavalry officers who stated that Baucher’s influence was minimal.

Guy V. Henry, Jr. was born into the military life. Son of Guy Vernor Henry, he went on to graduate from West Point in 1898,[1] and distinguished his military career by winning the Silver Star in 1899 during the Spanish-American War.[1] He also won two Distinguished Service Medals later in life.
Henry went on to study at the French Cavalry School in Saumur, France and used the knowledge he gained there to change the treatment and training of US Cavalry Horses. This included starting horses not by “breaking” them using the traditional western methods, but by training them on the longe, then slowly teaching them to accept the weight of a human on their back. He also brought dressage methods from both the French and German schools, with a great deal of influence from Baucher, and as senior instructor of equitation at the Mounted Service School at Ft. Riley he insisted in teaching new recruits to properly use the aids and promoted the European methods. Henry helped to institute the high level of horsemanship at Ft. Riley, helping to develop farrier and veterinary programs which were to become required courses for cavalry lieutenants. He also got rid of the harsh curb bit used by the Cavalry, known as the Shoemaker bit, and replaced it with either the snaffle bit or the double bridle.
Olympic Equestrian Career

Henry competed in all three Olympic equestrian disciplines - dressage, eventing, and show jumping - for the United States during his years in the Army. His most distinguished Olympic results occurred at the 1912 Olympic Games in Stockholm, where he won the bronze medal in the team eventing competition, finished 11th in the individual event, 4th in the team jumping competition, and 13th in the individual dressage competition.
Henry later served at Chef dÉquipe for the US Teams from 1936–1948, was chairman on the Olympic Equestrian Committee from 1930–1960, and director of equestrian events at the 1932 Summer Olympics in Los Angeles.

[ThreeFigs]

Ginger, it’s a badge of honor, like a sabre scar.

I’m sure Sanders is a Master of Fencing, too.

Falconry,
Accupuncture,
Kung Fu, or was it Feng Shui?

So why not Fencing?

[ginger708]

I’m just not sure what I did that the master did not do to me. I did not know it was immature to ask questions.

[ThreeFigs]

Aw, lighten up, ADM7040!

Sometimes the muck is a fun place to be!

Does Ginger’s supposed snarkiness bother you more than Eagle’s self-importance?

One man’s pointed question is another man’s snark, I guess.

[princessfluffybritch]

[QUOTE=ponybetty;5053037]
enjoy. I hope these links work.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5e1qNdAoR0&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sjtVLKZGFBg&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoZ31XXvzcw

What school? What parts of what schools? Does the end justify the means?[/QUOTE]

I certainly enjoyed that!

[AZ_Native]

Me too ! Wow, that gal is a hand !

[princessfluffybritch]

[QUOTE=mbm;5053023]
thanks for the link to the Baucher book. Google is very cool

I think that if we are going to compare Baucher’s “harshness” we should probably compare it to others of his time frame.

clearly we are much much more humane in our handling of horses than what went on 100’s of years ago.

also, it seems to me that what was taught by Baucher and the other Masters of dressage, has been filtered, combined, diluted, refined etc.

I have read other books from that time frame that were difficult for me to read because of the harshness. However that does not take away from the information that has been passed down and that has shown to be correct and workable.

I see modern people (trainers, etc) doing horrid things with their hands/seat that i can only call abuse… so it isnt only guys form the past that had a corner on that market.

Each horse has its own “book” and it behooves the trainer to have as much knowledge as possible even if it means studying different/opposing schools -[/QUOTE]

Maybe way back when, when horses were treated much more abusively, maybe Baucherism was taught as the more humane approach.

Queen Elizabeth I loved to watch bear-baiting. Society in the past would gather to enjoy a beheading, or more recently, a good hanging. Then today there’s bull fighting, horse tripping.
Makes Baucherism look pretty darn good. Even compared to , like mbm writes, some of the professionals we see working with horses today.

[princessfluffybritch]

[QUOTE=alicen;5052919]
Ta dah! Got’em.

I just finished reading Baucher’s first flexion on foot in which the horse is “playfully” and “recreationally” inflicted with bit pain. Baucher says “The repetition of this exercise will give the most surprising results, even in the first lesson.”
I’m waiting for my techie adviser to tell me how to link the site.[/QUOTE]

If “playfully” and “recreationally” are in the same sentence as inflicting bit pain, is there a possibility that “pain” was mis-translated? It could have started out as “pressure” before translated.

I do think that Baucherism and that type of classical riding is not something I want to do, (overbent, behind the bit), but cruel?

[princessfluffybritch]

[QUOTE=spirithorse;5052929]

Will you folks get a book on equine anatomy and study it before you blindly follow this false and illogical statement.

The jaw is not intimately connected through the muscle structure to the neck of the horse![/QUOTE]

I can’t seem to stiffen my jaw without my neck stiffening as well.

[ToN_Farm]

[QUOTE=Beasmom;5053245]
Ginger, it’s a badge of honor, like a sabre scar.

I’m sure Sanders is a Master of Fencing, too.

Falconry,
Accupuncture,
Kung Fu, or was it Feng Shui?

So why not Fencing?[/QUOTE] Jack of all trades, Master of none? :winkgrin:

[princessfluffybritch]

I don’t think this thread should be going the way of “who is crueler”. People are cruel all over.

We were discussing which school of thought was more correct, made the horse more correct. I don’t think that Baucher was teaching cruel or mean training. I really do think he was improving what was done at the time to train a horse.

[alicen]

[QUOTE=princessfluffybritches;5053303]
If “playfully” and “recreationally” are in the same sentence as inflicting bit pain, is there a possibility that “pain” was mis-translated? It could have started out as “pressure” before translated.

I do think that Baucherism and that type of classical riding is not something I want to do, (overbent, behind the bit), but cruel?[/QUOTE]

Sorry, don’t have a copy in French close to hand. Did you read the link that I provided?

[ThreeFigs]

About that translation, quite likely, PFB. Some languages have words for which there are no easy English equivalents – resulting in some pretty clumsy phraseology.

We’ve been hangin’ with horses for thousands of years. Just how many blind alleys and dead ends do you suppose our predecessors wandered into, trying to find a “better” or “faster” or “easier” way to do things – including training horses?

We’re still doing it. Baucher did it. Grisone did it. Pluvinel did it, and all the rest. Some found their way out the other side of the training maze, others got lost, others got stuck in a cul-de-sac and rather than retracing their steps, persisted in beating their heads against a wall.

In the end, the trainer has to choose the method, technique or theory of training that he’s most comfortable with, the one that works for him and his horses. What works for an Andalusian might not work as well for an OTTB. The trainer might have to tweak his technique to fit the horse at hand. Hit that proverbial wall? Even the best trainer seeks the advice of another when confronted with a new & difficult problem.

Horses keep us humble. Dressage shows us that no one knows it all and the next horse you meet may be the one who brings you to your knees or elevates you.

PFB – just noticed your comment about the jaw & stiff neck. One little trick to riding relaxed & easy (well, easIER) is to ride with your teeth & lips slightly parted. Try it. You’ll find riding slightly slack-jawed helps you stay “loose”.

Some say chewing gum helps, though I wouldn’t ride a dressage test while snapping a big ol’ wad of bubble gum.

[ThreeFigs]

Good one, ToN Farm!

“Master of none”

[mbm]

[QUOTE=ponybetty;5053037]
enjoy. I hope these links work.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5e1qNdAoR0&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sjtVLKZGFBg&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoZ31XXvzcw

What school? What parts of what schools? Does the end justify the means?[/QUOTE]

thank you. the second video made me cry.

lovely lovely work. if i could work my horse even partially as well as her - with my horse remaining as happy as that… i would die a happy horsewoman.

joyful, lovely, light, harmonious, i could go on…

to me this is dressage.

thanks for posting them.

[alicen]

Beasmom wrote: PFB – just noticed your comment about the jaw & stiff neck. One little trick to riding relaxed & easy (well, easIER) is to ride with your teeth & lips slightly parted. Try it. You’ll find riding slightly slack-jawed helps you stay “loose”.

But keep water close at hand because the mouth can dry out easily.

[ThreeFigs]

[QUOTE=alicen;5053387]
Beasmom wrote: PFB – just noticed your comment about the jaw & stiff neck. One little trick to riding relaxed & easy (well, easIER) is to ride with your teeth & lips slightly parted. Try it. You’ll find riding slightly slack-jawed helps you stay “loose”.

But keep water close at hand because the mouth can dry out easily.[/QUOTE]

Chapstick is your friend! Don’t resort to mouth-breathing and drooling. Very unbecoming.

[alicen]

I’m pretty much Bauchered out at this point but if any one can find his “Methode d’Equitation Basee sur de Nouveaux Principes” on line, I’d happily have a go at checking out the controversial words. Is there a French google books?