Baucher method

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                                                                  Originally Posted by [B]spirithorse[/B]                     <a href="http://chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?p=5052929#post5052929">[IMG]http://chronofhorse.com/forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif)</a>                 
             [I] 

Will you folks get a book on equine anatomy and study it before you blindly follow this false and illogical statement.

The jaw is not intimately connected through the muscle structure to the neck of the horse![/I]

I can’t seem to stiffen my jaw without my neck stiffening as well.

True, both of you, but when considering a bridle with bit, the bit contacts both mandible and tongue.
And the tongue connects to the hyoid apparatus, which connects to several of the muscles of the neck…the hyoid appratus also articulates with the temporal bone in close proximity to the tempromandibular joint, and as such, may well be influenced by tension in that area.

Meethinks part of spirithorse’s response is due to the fact that he does not employ a bit, and therefore doesn’t think there is any reason to be concerend about these relationships.

But I would be interested to hear from him on the matter.

too bad Caroline is away, she has the french version and speaks French

[QUOTE=Beasmom;5053396]
Chapstick is your friend! Don’t resort to mouth-breathing and drooling. Very unbecoming.[/QUOTE]

Oh, I don’t know. When I consider all the drool horses have wiped on me, I figure I might owe them some.

Alicen, I pasted the book’s title from your post into Google and came up with the French version. Unfortunately, I’m such an internet idiot I could not get the link to work.

Translate away!

[QUOTE=Beasmom;5053441]
Alicen, I pasted the book’s title from your post into Google and came up with the French version. Unfortunately, I’m such an internet idiot I could not get the link to work.

Translate away![/QUOTE]

Yeah, unfortunately, I just did the same thing. And I have it. However, I do not have any wine and it is imperative to translate French with wine.

Wow! Reading Baucher in French is more horrific than reading him in English; it makes me feel too close to him.

Wow! Read![](ng Baucher in French is more horrific than reading him in English;

My copy is in pig latin but you are welcome to borrow it.

Originally Posted by ponybetty [IMG]http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif)
[I]enjoy. I hope these links work.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5e1qNdAoR0&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sjtVL…eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoZ31XXvzcw[/I]

Thanks for posting those.:):):slight_smile:

Alicen, what does that mean?

“Reading Baucher in French is more horrific than reading him in English; it makes me feel too close to him.”

Would an unassuming little wine make it less horrific? Or worse?

“Before beginning the flexion exercises, it is essential to give the horse a first lesson of subjugation and to make him familiar with all of the power of man.” -Baucher

PFB - I will specifically look for the “playfully” and " recreationally" passages tomorrow, but, because I’ve not yet had supper, I’m begging off for now.

Mr. Sanders, have you actually read Baucher?

Has anyone here actually read Baucher?

I have only a little understanding, but it seems to me that this discussion is hopping around because of limited understanding of Baucher or the “French method” (and there are of course several), and the (understandable) inclination to try to grasp the differences by reference to “normal” dressage. The trouble is, that we treat the FEI rules as THE RULES, handed down by on high. But there is nothing sacred in these rules, and they have been revised several times, each time becoming, I think, rather more German (and perhaps more suited to German horses.) When we think dressage, we think German dressage, even when we don’t realize it. It is what we compare all dressage against, even how we determine what is “classical”. But if we have curious minds, we might try to see dressage from a different angle. But if we try to immediately judge its procedures and outcomes by THE RULES, we will learn nothing. When faced with two very different systems, one must understand how they work internally, and how they work in their own context, before trying to make a definite comparison.

I thought maybe I could help a little, since I have been pouring over Philippe Karl’s Twisted Truths of Modern Dressage (really really interesting by the way, even if you’re wary of this whole “French thing”, it will make you think!) for the last few months, trying to understand it. I am hoping to get a hold of Racinet’s books soon, and then maybe I will want to retract all this!

But: the three main principles of Baucher’s 2nd method, filtered thru Philippe Karl, as I understand them:

  • Balance before movement.
    The first step is to relax and balance the horse (thru flexions, esp. the cession de mâchoire, below) and then to send it forward. If the horse loses balance or begins to resist the hand, one backs off and re-establishes balance and relaxation at the walk or halt before proceeding. These flexions also lay the groundwork for developing straightness.

  • Hands without legs, legs without hands
    The are (almost) always used seperately, although often in close conjunction. Impulsion is generated from the leg, which the horse is expected to sustain without continued pressure. The first step in training is to teach the horse the meaning of these aids, e.g. legs, which he does not inherently understand. As the legs create forward motion, they are (almost) never used for anything else, e.g. for half-halts or halts. Half-halts are achieved through the hands lifting up rather than thru a combination of hand & leg. He quotes La Guérinière:
    “The demi-arrêt [half-halt] is carried out by holding the curb hand close to you with the nails turned a little upwards without completely stopping the horse, but only holding and supporting the forehand when teh horse leans on the bit or even when we want to increase ramener or colleciton…if it leans too much on the hand, demi-arrêts must be more frequent and pronounced, only using the curb hand without any help of the calves or the legs; on the contrary we have to release the thighs because otherwise the horse will lean even more on the forehand.”
    This use of the hand (lifting, rather than contracting backwards) is cession de mâchoire, and is a flexion achieved first in hand, then mounted, then in movement. You ask for the jaw to release by lifting the hand so that the snaffle acts only on the corners of the mouth, and not on the tongue. The hand releases, and maintains the light contact created as long as the mouth remains mobile. When the jaw stiffens, it is repeated. The goal is create a reflex anticipation, with the horse yielding its mouth more and more quickly and maintaining the soft, released mouth for longer, with the aid becoming increasingly more subtle. In this way the hand gently creates relaxation when it has been lost. PK specifies variations for horses who go above the bit or which lean on the hand. The hands therefore are not always low, and they always follow the horse’s mouth.

  • The ideal is “descente de main et de jambes”
    That is, the ceasing to act of hand or leg, the horse being “on parole”, to test that the horse is not being held up or pushed forward, but is sustaining the movement himself. It shows relaxation, balance, impulsion.

    Légereté, lightness, is this quality of mobilizing the jaw (“tasting the bit”) which produces softness in the hand, together with impulsion that does not require sustained pressure from the legs.

BTW, supposedly the 2nd method is set out in “Methodic Schooling of the Saddle Horse according to the Last Teachings of F. Baucher, collected by one of his students, 1891” by François Faverot de Kerbrech. Something else to read!

Again, not an expert. Corrections welcome.

:),
Steph

Yow! “A first lesson of subjugation and to make him familiar with all of the power of man.”

Can’t wait to hear more, Alicen.

Hmmm. So maybe this version is the first “method”, Poetaperegrinus?

Would be fun to compare that 1891 de Kerbrech version.

[QUOTE=Beasmom;5053504]
Alicen, what does that mean? Would an unassuming little wine make it less horrific? Or worse?[/QUOTE]

Well, that which needs translation was probably written under at least an “unassuming little wine” so one would be more in sinc with the author with the imbibing of a little wine.

[QUOTE=alicen;5053331]
Sorry, don’t have a copy in French close to hand. Did you read the link that I provided?[/QUOTE]

No, I was just asking a question.

[QUOTE=Beasmom;5053348]
About that translation, quite likely, PFB. Some languages have words for which there are no easy English equivalents – resulting in some pretty clumsy phraseology.

We’ve been hangin’ with horses for thousands of years. Just how many blind alleys and dead ends do you suppose our predecessors wandered into, trying to find a “better” or “faster” or “easier” way to do things – including training horses?

We’re still doing it. Baucher did it. Grisone did it. Pluvinel did it, and all the rest. Some found their way out the other side of the training maze, others got lost, others got stuck in a cul-de-sac and rather than retracing their steps, persisted in beating their heads against a wall.

In the end, the trainer has to choose the method, technique or theory of training that he’s most comfortable with, the one that works for him and his horses. What works for an Andalusian might not work as well for an OTTB. The trainer might have to tweak his technique to fit the horse at hand. Hit that proverbial wall? Even the best trainer seeks the advice of another when confronted with a new & difficult problem.

Horses keep us humble. Dressage shows us that no one knows it all and the next horse you meet may be the one who brings you to your knees or elevates you.

PFB – just noticed your comment about the jaw & stiff neck. One little trick to riding relaxed & easy (well, easIER) is to ride with your teeth & lips slightly parted. Try it. You’ll find riding slightly slack-jawed helps you stay “loose”.

Some say chewing gum helps, though I wouldn’t ride a dressage test while snapping a big ol’ wad of bubble gum.[/QUOTE]

Thanks, I will try the slack jaw along with remembering to breathe!!! :smiley:

[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=alicen;5053387]
Beasmom wrote: PFB – just noticed your comment about the jaw & stiff neck. One little trick to riding relaxed & easy (well, easIER) is to ride with your teeth & lips slightly parted. Try it. You’ll find riding slightly slack-jawed helps you stay “loose”.

But keep water close at hand because the mouth can dry out easily.

[QUOTE=Beasmom;5053594]
Yow! “A first lesson of subjugation and to make him familiar with all of the power of man.”

Can’t wait to hear more, Alicen.

Hmmm. So maybe this version is the first “method”, Poetaperegrinus?

Would be fun to compare that 1891 de Kerbrech version.[/QUOTE]

Yes, it is the first method, before the chandelier fell on him.
Fun juxtaposed with Baucher? Baucher doesn’t impress me as being a fun kind of guy. But yes, I admit a morbid interest in comparing the 1st and 2nd method.

[QUOTE=mbm;5053381]
thank you. the second video made me cry.

lovely lovely work. if i could work my horse even partially as well as her - with my horse remaining as happy as that… i would die a happy horsewoman.

joyful, lovely, light, harmonious, i could go on…

to me this is dressage.

thanks for posting them.[/QUOTE]

DITTO!!!

[QUOTE=alicen;5053575]
“Before beginning the flexion exercises, it is essential to give the horse a first lesson of subjugation and to make him familiar with all of the power of man.” -Baucher

PFB - I will specifically look for the “playfully” and " recreationally" passages tomorrow, but, because I’ve not yet had supper, I’m begging off for now.

Mr. Sanders, have you actually read Baucher?

Has anyone here actually read Baucher?[/QUOTE]

Or, we can hope that some French speaking person comes along. Darn, I knew I should have taken French instead of Spanish in school!

OK, maybe “fun” wasn’t the best choice of words…

Dang. The book I just ordered is his first method, I think. Oh, well Amazon is my BFF!

PFB, surely the Master has read Baucher – both methods.

By the way…where IS he? After all, he did start a very lively discussion of Baucher, his methods, and the French School. He should be proud.

I’ll probably curl up with Phillipe Karl’s big book tonight. It’s delightfully illustrated and looks like a good presentation. It’s been in my reading queue right behind “A Confederacy of Dunces”.

Really.