Baucher method

[ginger708]

I just don’t understand why this Ignore feature is such a threat. If you don’t like what people have to say just ignore it. Why do people have to announce it. It speaks of a little to much self importance.

Anyways, I’m glad to see that there are some people that are more informed about Baucher’s methods that do not have an agenda. I think that it would be fun if someone puts forth a typical riding problem and we discuss how the different “methods” may fix or work through the issue.

And all this talk has inspired me I am going to pick up a few books on amazon as well.

[alicen]

Re: English translation of play, pain, and recreation stand uncorrected.

The result of the jaw flexions “is to prepare the horse to instantly yield to the lightest pressure of the bit and to supple the muscles of the head and neck.”

Excess roughness is discouraged, but still, from the start the goal is to get the horse to back off the bit. So, not behind the vertical, but behind the bit.

As in all things, it is helpful to know the context from which an ideology is developed. Baucher’s method was developed ( and promoted) specifically as a fast, sure, and simple way to train the French calvary. In fact, he was seeking a military contract, which, despite the seeming approval and enthusiasm of the generals, he failed to obtain because of a political faux pas.

And now I need to rewatch the video provided by ponybetty in which the horse is ridden free of military/political influence.

[alicen]

spirithorse, please note the proximity of the jaw to the poll/neck. Can you still say they are unconnected? http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://amesburyanimalhospital.evetsites.net/sites/site-2702/images/Equine/9e09aa30-7f00-0001-1c6f-0434042508ae.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.amesburyah.com/site/view/112943_Dentistry.pml%3Bjsessionid%3Db934qmgmc5i&usg=__6BQDeg_WucGJ7UEnCtS9uTVUCBM=&h=476&w=800&sz=41&hl=en&start=0&zoom=1&tbnid=YDK0uhlgkJBceM:&tbnh=104&tbnw=138&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dhorses%2Bskull%26hl%3Den%26biw%3D998%26bih%3D527%26gbv%3D2%26tbs%3Disch:1&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=444&vpy=107&dur=4547&hovh=173&hovw=291&tx=132&ty=108&ei=QiR1TLuCFNShnQfez9jsBQ&oei=QiR1TLuCFNShnQfez9jsBQ&esq=1&page=1&ndsp=19&ved=1t:429,r:3,s:0

[ginger708]

[QUOTE=alicen;5054159]
Re: English translation of play, pain, and recreation stand uncorrected.

The result of the jaw flexions “is to prepare the horse to instantly yield to the lightest pressure of the bit and to supple the muscles of the head and neck.”

Excess roughness is discouraged, but still, from the start the goal is to get the horse to back off the bit. So, not behind the vertical, but behind the bit.

As in all things, it is helpful to know the context from which an ideology is developed. Baucher’s method was developed ( and promoted) specifically as a fast, sure, and simple way to train the French calvary. In fact, he was seeking a military contract, which, despite the seeming approval and enthusiasm of the generals, he failed to obtain because of a political faux pas.

And now I need to rewatch the video provided by ponybetty in which the horse is ridden free of military/political influence.[/QUOTE]

So I may be completely guilty of dumbing this down, but it seems that Baucher was trying to develop an assembly line type of horse training for the military to get horses ready for service quickly. By using force to get his message across to the horse more quickly and hoping it would stick by useing more severe bits.

[stryder]

[QUOTE=alicen;5054159]
Re: English translation of play, pain, and recreation stand uncorrected.

The result of the jaw flexions “is to prepare the horse to instantly yield to the lightest pressure of the bit and to supple the muscles of the head and neck.”

Excess roughness is discouraged, but still, from the start the goal is to get the horse to back off the bit. So, not behind the vertical, but behind the bit.[/QUOTE]

I don’t speak French, and so am not helpful in the translation department. But my training has been based on this method, so I do practice it each time I ride.

The horse should hold the bit lightly and savor it. When I ask for the horse to flex its jaw, the ask (while riding) can be as simple and light as closing the fingers on both hands. This should be enough for the horse to relax its jaw and flex the poll. I may have to tap with the whip to draw the horse’s attention to me and my request. The horse is never permitted to lean on my hands. If this quiet and light ask is ignored, I will escalate the ask until the horse yields its jaw. This escalation may include asking for an eighth flexion one side to the other, or gently vibrating one rein, or spreading both hands to shorten both reins at once. Through all of it I am asking the horse, via its mouth, to pay attention to me and to get its mind in our ride.

The yielding of the jaw looks like the horse is chewing. It is a trained response. When the horse does not respond in this way, transmittal is poor. The horse feels heavy on the bit. Actually, the bit feels dead in my hands.

I’ve read earlier posts about lifting the head. Actually, I ask the horse to lift its OWN head, and to keep it there. The ask is as light as using my hands to keep a balloon in the air. That’s why I can ride with the weight of the reins. She stays connected and responsive.

@alicen;5054159

As in all things, it is helpful to know the context from which an ideology is developed. Baucher’s method was developed ( and promoted) specifically as a fast, sure, and simple way to train the French calvary. In fact, he was seeking a military contract, which, despite the seeming approval and enthusiasm of the generals, he failed to obtain because of a political faux pas.

This was the time in which well-trained horses were found in the courts of the kings and monarchs. Their training (and that of their riders) took years. But now, with war pending, many thousands of horses and riders needed to be trained in 30 days. The methods had to be stream-lined.

[ginger708]

I don’t speak French, and so am not helpful in the translation department. But my training has been based on this method, so I do practice it each time I ride.

The horse should hold the bit lightly and savor it. When I ask for the horse to flex its jaw, the ask (while riding) can be as simple and light as closing the fingers on both hands. This should be enough for the horse to relax its jaw and flex the poll. I may have to tap with the whip to draw the horse’s attention to me and my request. The horse is never permitted to lean on my hands. If this quiet and light ask is ignored, I will escalate the ask until the horse yields its jaw.

The yielding of the jaw looks like the horse is chewing. It is a trained response. When the horse does not respond in this way, transmittal is poor. The horse feels heavy on the bit. Actually, the bit feels dead in my hands.

I’ve read earlier posts about lifting the head. Actually, I ask the horse to lift its OWN head, and to keep it there. The ask is as light as using my hands to keep a balloon in the air. That’s why I can ride with the weight of the reins. She stays connected and responsive.

Is this being done at the halt? Is the back encouraged to lift while you are encouraging the yield of the jaw?

[stryder]

[QUOTE=ginger708;5054314]
Is this being done at the halt? Is the back encouraged to lift while you are encouraging the yield of the jaw?[/QUOTE]

It’s done at the halt and all gaits. It’s done whenever horse feels resistant or the bit feels dead.

The horse is always encouraged to use its back. If I do a standing flexion and ask the horse to raise its head, I see its back muscles fill in, as well as those along the middle and top of its neck.

First the horse raises its head. Then the horse begins to transfer its weight to its rear. It tends to shorten its base and bring its haunches under. The neck is raised and filled in along the top, the back is filled in. And THEN the nose drops, to slightly in front of vertical, or vertical.

I do understand the difference between this and being hollow-backed. Even if the nose doesn’t drop to vertical, the horse is not hollow-backed. (To me, hollow-backed looks camped-out) But at some point, the horse will find holding its nose up (nearly parallel to the ground) is not comfortable, and will have the strength and flexibility to allow it to drop, while maintaining the weight transfer to the rear and a shorter base.

(Please keep in mind that I am not a trainer. I am riding a trained horse and so while I maintain and help her progress, I did not start her.)

[ginger708]

Thanks Stryder, I’m getting a much better visual. When you are asking the head to rise how high does it go? are you looking for the hight of a horse in full connection or is it more of the hight on a training / first level horse working with connection? Or do you let the horse decide what is comfortable as long as you are feeling what you want in your hands and under saddle?

[ThreeFigs]

OK, so I have a question about this “raising” of the head. Is there anyone here who thinks the Baucherist method would have been appropriate for this horse?

My gelding came to me with a back injury. My vet and various clinicians all prescribed riding him in a somewhat long, low deep frame to encourage him to stretch his back and activate his hind end. We did hills, some cavalletti, LY, whatever we could think of to strengthen his back.

Asking him to “lift” his head too early in the process would have been disasterous for him. So I rode him back up, head low. There was always a gentle connection with his mouth. There were times when I felt he leaned too much into my hands, and I noted this to my coach. Her comment was, “It’s temporary – he’s too weak yet.”

She was right. By and by, he lightened in the contact. Gradually I was able to increase his “adjustability” – ride him in any frame ranging from stretchy long & low to one that would be appropriate for Second level.

Asking this horse to instantly shift weight back to his weak and injured hind end would not have the desired result. If he’d been in Baucher’s time, he’d likely have been sent to the butcher. He would not have stood up to the challenge of becoming a 30-day French Cavalry wonder in Baucher’s plan.

Am I wrong? Is there any Baucherist out there who’s used the “method” to rehabilitate a horse with a back or hind-end injury?

[alicen]

[QUOTE=ginger708;5054211]
So I may be completely guilty of dumbing this down, but it seems that Baucher was trying to develop an assembly line type of horse training for the military to get horses ready for service quickly. By using force to get his message across to the horse more quickly and hoping it would stick by useing more severe bits.[/QUOTE]

Ginger, having read some 100 ( unedifying) pages yesterday ( in which pain response to the bit is frequently mentioned), I’m feeling (speaking of chickens/eggs) a tad little-red-henish today. The link to the English translation of Baucher’s first method is on pg 21 post #414 of this thread. Google books has translations of all his works. I’ve learned what I needed to learn about Baucher straight from the horses mouth. Only grant $ would induce me to compare his before/after the chandelier methods. But really, it’s all there to be read in French or English, with illustrations. Ain’t the internet wonderful.

Mind you, I am making no comments about any other French trainers or schools.

By the way, Baucher used the double bridle.

[stryder]

[QUOTE=ginger708;5054376]
When you are asking the head to rise how high does it go? are you looking for the hight of a horse in full connection or is it more of the hight on a training / first level horse working with connection? [/QUOTE]

When I do a standing flexion, I face the horse, and with a rein in each hand, ask the horse to raise its head. My mare is tall, and by the end, my arms are raised as high as they can and I am on tiptoes. I am trying to do this without bumping the bit against her mouth. I want her to hold the bit on the way up. I’m waiting for her stretch her neck out of the shoulder sling, for her to transfer weight to the rear, and to prepare to step back. This particular flexion stretched her undercarriage and frees her neck from the shoulder sling.

Under saddle, I ask her to raise her head. It is rather like the balloon description because she’ll raise it, and then it begins to droop. I ask again, it raises, and then it droops. But over time, the ask is smaller, and she keeps it raised longer. It takes a long while to build muscle this way. I must never hold it up. She must.

You ask about the training/first level horse. I’m really not familiar with how those horses look, because I don’t show. It’s rather like the flexions. Where I train, everyone does them, so they are normal to me. You’re familiar with a different perspective, that is normal to you, and foreign to me.

Last weekend I moved my mare to a new barn. Many dressage riders there, all trained differently from me. When compared to what I’m familiar with, the horses look like they are cantering around on their forehands, with their heads tucked to their chests. It’s very different to me. I’m not saying it’s right or wrong, good or bad, it’s just that this look is different.

@ginger708;5054376

Or do you let the horse decide what is comfortable as long as you are feeling what you want in your hands and under saddle?

My horse does get to decide what is comfortable, in a way. When I ask her to raise her head, it raises a bit beyond what is comfortable for her. And then it sinks to her comfort level. So I must ask again. Over time, what I want becomes her new normal. My mare’s headset will always be lower than some, because of her breeding and conformation.

It’s important so let her stretch down periodically. I may ask a few times, then let her stretch. Rewarding her preserves her try.

[spirithorse]

@Beasmom;5054404

Am I wrong? Is there any Baucherist out there who’s used the “method” to rehabilitate a horse with a back or hind-end injury?

You were SOOO right…your horse would have been useless if you had tried Baucher

[Ghazzu]

@spirithorse;5053840

Ghazzu;

At one time I had the pleasure of having a vet that was a retired U.S. Cavalry vet.
This gentleman introduced me to the ‘actual’ connections of the muscles in the jaw/head of the horse and the neck.

I have some passing familiarity with the ‘actual’ connections.

The natural position of a relaxed jaw for a horse is in a closed position [not clenched]. A horse will not stand around with his mouth open to let in all the flying pests as a dietary supplement.

Apparently you have me confused with someone else, as I see no point in this discussion where I ever averred that any horse stood around with jaws agape.

We humans can clench our jaws shut and still have supple neck muscles, allowing us full flexion of our ‘poll’.

I’llleave that discussion to people well versed in human biomechanics.

Now what has provided the ‘working’ evidence for me is that when schooling in SB there is no resistance in the jaw, throat latch or neck…yet when we place a simple snaffle bit into the horse’s mouth the resistance shows up in various forms; including opening the jaw to avoid the bit and a tightening of the poll region muscles.

I would avoid speaking such absolutes, myself. But carry on.

Dr. Clayton clearly demonstrated that a bit must depress the tongue in order to set inside the mouth, and/or press upward against the palate. There is not one horse in the world that is going to NOT have some form of resistance in the muscle structure of the head and neck in order to displace the discomfort of the bit.

What of horses who actiely “pick up” and carry a bit?

Care to work bitted as we work our horses?

No, but neither do I desire to carry anyone around on my back.
Or dine on hay.

I am not against the bit, I am against the misuse of the bit through ignorance, .

On that matter, we agree.

[stryder]

[QUOTE=Beasmom;5054404]
OK, so I have a question about this “raising” of the head. Is there anyone here who thinks the Baucherist method would have been appropriate for this horse?

Asking this horse to instantly shift weight back to his weak and injured hind end would not have the desired result. If he’d been in Baucher’s time, he’d likely have been sent to the butcher. He would not have stood up to the challenge of becoming a 30-day French Cavalry wonder in Baucher’s plan.

Am I wrong? Is there any Baucherist out there who’s used the “method” to rehabilitate a horse with a back or hind-end injury?[/QUOTE]

I think the horse would have been worked in hand at the start of his recovery. Specific movements to engage his hind end and to begin to transfer weight to the rear. Longing at the trot to strengthen his loins.

And then at the appropriate time, a light rider for brief periods until he was strong enough for a heavier rider, and then longer periods of work.

[ginger708]

You ask about the training/first level horse. I’m really not familiar with how those horses look, because I don’t show. It’s rather like the flexions. Where I train, everyone does them, so they are normal to me. You’re familiar with a different perspective, that is normal to you, and foreign to me.

Last weekend I moved my mare to a new barn. Many dressage riders there, all trained differently from me. When compared to what I’m familiar with, the horses look like they are cantering around on their forehands, with their heads tucked to their chests. It’s very different to me.

I apologize in my question I should have said does the horses head go as high as full collection where the pole is the highest point, or training /first where the rider is more concerned about the lift under saddle and connection to the aids. In training/first the judge wants to see a more relaxed frame therefore the pole may be slightly higher than the spine and the body is in a longer frame horse still working from behind?

[princessfluffybritch]

[QUOTE=spirithorse;5053800]
:eek:Seems my persistence regarding the Challenge has sent the Master scurring into the shavings of someone else’s forum.
He called my challenge circus… oh well, a horse charity missed out on a great opportunity to reap the labors of our efforts.
Gosh, It appears I am to stupid to be in the same arena as him.

I am honored to be acquainted with the members of this board who have roasted me, it has made me a better man. Guess this kitchen gets to hot for a Master of soooo many things.:lol:[/QUOTE]

I agree. Roasting you has made me so much more educated. Without roasting, I learn nothing.

[princessfluffybritch]

[QUOTE=JMurray;5053913]
Spirithorse, whatever issue you have with eagles is not shared by others and is annoying to keep seeing your personal axe grinding appear here. I have enjoyed reading your posts where you are contributing to the actual discussion on the different French methods, but your other posts are forcing me to put you in my ignore list as just a generally annoying poster.[/QUOTE]

I find the Spirit’s challenging is educational.

[ginger708]

The Master is very busy he cant be bothered with people that do not need kung fu, acupuncture , boating, falconry, bit making, riding, all french things in genera, fashion design, origami, print making, cliff diving, wine making, the ministry of the goofy walk, ghost hunting, and many other activities.

[stryder]

[QUOTE=ginger708;5054567]
I apologize in my question I should have said does the horses head go as high as full collection where the pole is the highest point, or training /first where the rider is more concerned about the lift under saddle and connection to the aids. In training/first the judge wants to see a more relaxed frame therefore the pole may be slightly higher than the spine and the body is in a longer frame horse still working from behind?[/QUOTE]

In general, the poll will be the highest point. It may not be very high, and in some cases may be only a bit above the withers. It will become higher as the horse gets stronger and advances in training. Well, and the rider becomes more educated.

Yes, more relaxed in the beginning, horse looks a little more strung out. But starting to work from behind.

[stryder]

[QUOTE=ginger708;5054764]
The Master is very busy he cant be bothered with people that do not need kung fu, acupuncture , boating, falconry, bit making, riding, all french things in genera, fashion design, origami, print making, cliff diving, wine making, the ministry of the goofy walk, ghost hunting, and many other activities.;)[/QUOTE]

He probably got tired of the same old snark-fest and went back to work. Unfortunately, there are other people who tip-toed into these waters over the years, and finding hostility, left. Too bad. They could have added a great deal to this discussion.