Baucher method

[princessfluffybritch]

Like I’ve stated before, I use any non abusive method to have the horse in a proper frame. When my horse is stretched into the bit, not above or below, but right where she should be, it allows me to use my seat to keep her there. Isn’t that the way it should be? I don’t pull back. My green horse tends to throw her head around and stargaze with a gaping mouth (saying no no no) at that point, I plant my hands on the pommel or thigh and let her fight herself until she understands that what she’s doing is fighting herself. Eventually she realizes that relaxing on the bit is much easier and comfortable than what she does to herself. Now she is ready for me to work to keep her there with seat into hand, fingers softening as a reward. This is repeated as needed, but the needs are less and less as she understands that what frame is expected, and it is a much more comfortable place to be. This cannot be accomplished unless her head is vertical or nose slightly in front because the bit will not be in the correct position to frame the energy created from seat/leg into collection

Since horses respond to rhythm, all my aids are given in a rhythm with the trot.

Now, is there another method of keeping a horse on the aids? Can anyone explain what they do differently?

[ginger708]

[QUOTE=stryder;5054810]
He probably got tired of the same old snark-fest and went back to work. Unfortunately, there are other people who tip-toed into these waters over the years, and finding hostility, left. Too bad. They could have added a great deal to this discussion.[/QUOTE]

I get it we were mean to the master. However did you really think that you were going to get past his agenda of selling his interpretation of french riding. When really the people like you that truly practice flexions are not riding horses all that differently from people that are choosing to compete ride dressage.

Did you read in the other thread where he brought up his wife’s cancer, or on the same other thread where he said someone on this thread called his horse older than dirt. I can tell you that I never attacked his horse, I told him that I thought it was not right to work a horse that is off. It’s fine with me if he wants to do stuff with his horse at home, but in my opinion to make a horse go through the stress of travel and performing at 26 just getting over west nile and what looked like being very stiff in the hocks doing highly collected movements is just wrong. And if you read his posts completely he was just as good at telling me and others how bad our hands are, how uneducated we are,etc.

Also after you called me out saying that I was hiding behind my screen name I put my complete history out for every one to read. Then ADM 74 what ever got all level snobby with me. So I feel that I got as good as I gave but at least I can keep a sense of humor about it.

[princessfluffybritch]

[QUOTE=stryder;5054810]
He probably got tired of the same old snark-fest and went back to work. Unfortunately, there are other people who tip-toed into these waters over the years, and finding hostility, left. Too bad. They could have added a great deal to this discussion.[/QUOTE]

When he started this thread, he had to have known that there would be some strong debate. And this discussion DID lead to some open-minded people seeking books to read about the “other” methods. Isn’t that what he wanted? People seeking a better understanding of the Baucher school?

[stryder]

[QUOTE=ginger708;5054844]

Also after you called me out saying that I was hiding behind my screen name I put my complete history out for every one to read. Then ADM 74 what ever got all level snobby with me. So I feel that I got as good as I gave but at least I can keep a sense of humor about it.[/QUOTE]

Actually, I was not calling you out. I was making a general observation.

I suppose people who know me would say I have a pretty good sense of humor, but some of what I read here from some posters, is not funny and is so mean-spirited that it’s offensive. It does nothing to advance one’s education and in fact, inhibits the discussion because it drives away some people who have a lot to contribute.

I completely understand that some people have a great deal of knowledge and yet score quite poorly in their communication and interpersonal relationship skills. Some can’t read for comprehension. Some can’t spell. Conversely, some have GREAT communication skills, but don’t know very much. Add in a range of ages, and this environment becomes tougher.

Again, I am not singling you out, Ginger, but making a comment in general.

[stryder]

[QUOTE=princessfluffybritches;5054878]
When he started this thread, he had to have known that there would be some strong debate. And this discussion DID lead to some open-minded people seeking books to read about the “other” methods. Isn’t that what he wanted? People seeking a better understanding of the Baucher school?[/QUOTE]

Not knowing anything about the OP, I don’t know. But it seems that some people are learning something.

[ThreeFigs]

[QUOTE=ginger708;5054764]
The Master is very busy he cant be bothered with people that do not need kung fu, acupuncture , boating, falconry, bit making, riding, all french things in genera, fashion design, origami, print making, cliff diving, wine making, the ministry of the goofy walk, ghost hunting, and many other activities.;)[/QUOTE]

:lol:!!!

I was the one who said his horse was older than dirt – in the context that any laypersons who might have been in attendance at that exhibition might come away with the idea that it’s OK to make old, NQR horses perform. I have seen novice horse owners (parents) purchase crippled old horses for their kids and it’s no good for anyone. Exhibiting unsound, elderly horses just encourages such stuff.

Old horses who are sound – I have no problem.

Unsound horses of any age – problem.

[princessfluffybritch]

Snarkiness leads to a shutdown of communication and attempted understanding and openmindness-making this thread useless. I would like this thread to not end up being like discussing politics and religion, (LOL)

[ThreeFigs]

[QUOTE=princessfluffybritches;5054878]
When he started this thread, he had to have known that there would be some strong debate. And this discussion DID lead to some open-minded people seeking books to read about the “other” methods. Isn’t that what he wanted? People seeking a better understanding of the Baucher school?[/QUOTE]

I believe he was trying to drum up business for his on-line riding school. Whether or not he anticipated getting roasted, I have no idea. My guess is he hoped to find enough naive people to fill his virtual classroom.

As for spurring people on to learn more about Baucher – about the only book I DON’t have around here is his 1842 (?) text. But it’s on order.

Otherwise, I have Rancinet, Decarpentry, Henriquet, Karl and others gracing my bookshelves. That way I can read about and pick the most appropriate techniques for my needs. I’m not married to any single school and get tired of those who defend only one way of doing things.

I read through some of these books and quickly dismiss some of it as silly and pointless – Fillis’s tricks (three-legged canters, backwards canters, that sort of thing) are extreme examples. You learn to discriminate, and not in a bad way, but in a constructive way.

[ThreeFigs]

Who you talkin’ to PFB? I ain’t been snarky in, um, well, minutes!

[ginger708]

Eagles or AKA The Master had every opportunity to stop name dropping and talk about his actual riding or ground work at any time. I really did want to know what he was physically doing with the horses that he was training.

Please tell me if I’m off base Stryder, but it sound like sans the flexions we both start our horses out in a relaxed frame working from back to front however when I feel pulling or tension I go into lateral movements, at the same point you would work flexions that you know to work in the same situation. When the horse is relaxed and working in rhythm again we introduce more connection and ask for more complicated work. And in a perfect world everything goes to plan in our ride.

[ginger708]

[QUOTE=princessfluffybritches;5054906]
Snarkiness leads to a shutdown of communication and attempted understanding and openmindness-making this thread useless. I would like this thread to not end up being like discussing politics and religion, (LOL)[/QUOTE]

Sorry, I will try to keep my snarkiness on the down low:cool:

[princessfluffybritch]

[QUOTE=Beasmom;5054917]
Who you talkin’ to PFB? I ain’t been snarky in, um, well, minutes![/QUOTE]

Hey, if you were snarky, I surely missed it, and open-minded people like you would have to work real hard at being snarky, unless it’s being snarky to snarky people !

[princessfluffybritch]

[QUOTE=ginger708;5054925]
Eagles or AKA The Master had every opportunity to stop name dropping and talk about his actual riding or ground work at any time. I really did want to know what he was physically doing with the horses that he was training.

Please tell me if I’m off base Stryder, but it sound like sans the flexions we both start our horses out in a relaxed frame working from back to front however when I feel pulling or tension I go into lateral movements, at the same point you would work flexions that you know to work in the same situation. When the horse is relaxed and working in rhythm again we introduce more connection and ask for more complicated work. And in a perfect world everything goes to plan in our ride.[/QUOTE]

To me the education of Baucher flexions have lead me to think that they are about teaching a horse how to respond to bit pressure prior to mounting. Simple. But after watching videos of Baucherians ride, lightness has appeared to evolve into a horse being ridden behind the bit and over bent.

Where are the videos of Eagles riding his horses using his principles? Not stills, not working from the ground, not older recovering horses.

[princessfluffybritch]

[QUOTE=ginger708;5054928]
Sorry, I will try to keep my snarkiness on the down low:cool:[/QUOTE]

You were snarky?? Must have missed it

[ginger708]

[QUOTE=princessfluffybritches;5054981]
To me the education of Baucher flexions have lead me to think that they are about teaching a horse how to respond to bit pressure prior to mounting. Simple. But after watching videos of Baucherians ride, lightness has appeared to evolve into a horse being ridden behind the bit and over bent.

Where are the videos of Eagles riding his horses using his principles?[/QUOTE]

I will admit that I believe the video of Nuno doing triangles the horse was over bent. However Nuno was using his body in a show ring I think a judge would tell him he is leaning to much on the in side.

That being said I think that it is a clear picture that despite what the master said, the key to the horse is not just the mouth. Now if some riders feel that the horse is more relaxed after flexions on the ground so be it. But it seems for all of the masters brew ha ha, that the people that are experienced riding with the Baucher method are doing fairly typical dressage under saddle.

[spirithorse]

@alicen;5054197

spirithorse, please note the proximity of the jaw to the poll/neck. Can you still say they are unconnected?

“Horse Anatomy, A pictorial Approach to equined structure” Second Addition
by Peter Goody
Illustrated by John Goody

This is the finest book on equine anatomy. It will reveal to all who would choose to examine it closely that there is no working intimate muscular relationship between the jaw and the neck muscles.

[spirithorse]

Take the burrs out from under your saddle pad! I have not demonstrated any axe to grind. The Master is the one who set forth the wonders of Baucher [just one French school] and I challenged him simply because of the retoric and marketing he was presenting.

If you are offended I am sorry, but I shall not stand by while an individual openly challenges the knowledge of myself and my fellow forum members.

We all have something to contribute and we should allow reasonable discussions and debates. The Master was not here to debate, he was here to sell.

Respectfully
Allan

@JMurray;5053913

Spirithorse, whatever issue you have with eagles is not shared by others and is annoying to keep seeing your personal axe grinding appear here. I have enjoyed reading your posts where you are contributing to the actual discussion on the different French methods, but your other posts are forcing me to put you in my ignore list as just a generally annoying poster.

[alicen]

[QUOTE=spirithorse;5055286]
If you are offended I am sorry, but I shall not stand by while an individual openly challenges the knowledge of myself and my fellow forum members.[/QUOTE]

Very chilvarous of you and all, sp, but if you don’t mind, having come to it rather late in life, I rather enjoy fighting my own battles.

[Ghazzu]

@spirithorse;5055269

“Horse Anatomy, A pictorial Approach to equined structure” Second Addition
by Peter Goody
Illustrated by John Goody

This is the finest book on equine anatomy. It will reveal to all who would choose to examine it closely that there is no working intimate muscular relationship between the jaw and the neck muscles.

You might find this article to be of interest. A direct connection of cervical musculature to mandible is not essential for there to be a definite relationship between tension/stiffness/relaxation in the jaw and the same in the cervical musculature.

[spirithorse]

FDA - gov.

Wow…just discovered that someone from the FDA accessed my website through my posting on page

very interesting…think the health and welfare of the competitive horse may have taken notice at FDA?