My horse loves to perform and will do it free beside me including the airs
. That performance added years to his life for the sheer joy it brought him . He was praised by everyone who saw him their and he at once was young again I am sorry I do these things for my horses and a pity you can’t see the joy in his stepping with me and maybe have never felt a horse rise up and show off in proud artistry on his own , in this case of the love we have shared with each other for 22 years . I am just sorry for you . So that I remain civil and a gentlemen I see no sense in addresing you or your barbs any longer .
[QUOTE=ginger708;5044391]
Also you may be surprised that in regular old sad dressage you train from day one for collection it’s called the training scale it starts with rhythm and ends with collection. It is a difficult system that requires years of dedicated practice and and a certain degree of coordination the I assure you you will achieve with time and dedication. And you don’t have to go to a special school or have a lot of money or a special horse to achieve the maximum level of success your horse’s conformation will allow.
The French, Germans, Spanish, and Italians all influenced each other.[/QUOTE]
Yes to above. My point was there is no short cuts. No quick jumps to the double, no quick jumps to collection shrugs
I’d say that the best dressage is the HIGHLY influenced training from ALL countries combined.
Really, I have a horse that I trained and would do a collected trot right now if I got on his back and free lunge on a perfect circle if pointed in a direction. However he is sore and has an injury that ended his carrier. That horse would break his heart for me but I am women enough to not ask him to break it for me. If you think that exploiting you horses loyalty is good horsemanship have at it buddy.
Standing O for Ginger again…she brought up a valid point about making an old, lame horse perform. I see no problem with messing about with retirees to keep their minds and bodies supple and active, but I, too, cringe when a lame horse is made to perform in public.
It is a poor example for the general public, some might assume an elderly horse with limbs twisted with osteoarthritis is a perfect riding prospect for their child. After all, that Sanders guy’s horse performed and it’s older than dirt and NQR! It must be OK, right? Exhibiting a NQR horse is not advocating for the welfare of horses, IMHO. Is that not what your method strives for? A better way for horses?
The photos in your gallery tell me very little about your riding. A Who’s Who of your riding instructors impresses me less than knowing how YOU ride and teach.
It would be interesting for you to answer someone’s question regarding a specific training problem. Many pros on this BB do so. Many ammys contribute their two cent’s worth, too. The give-and-take of information is fun, often enlightening for everyone, and sometimes a great train-wreck ensues.
Perhaps you will ingratiate yourself to more people here if you join in discussions rather than trying to set yourself up as the guru on a mountaintop.
Ginger had a good point. Typical of faux-guru types, you attempt to show how your love of (insert name of sport, hobby, avocation, etc. here) transcends that of the common rabble. That’s tiresome and demeaning to your audience, and it is guaranteed to alienate more than you attract.
i am curious Eagles- initially what made you look to the french school? how did you find Baucher?
do you find that the baucher system will work for any horse?
as for a training problem - how would you go about teaching a 2 year old that has never really had its feet touched to pick up his feet? I am working on this with my 2 yo right now. 
i really do want to ask all sorts of questions but since i dont have a clue about the Baucher way I dont even know where to start!
eta: okay i thought of some real questions… do you use the school figures for building the horse up and for correcting issues? if so can you give an example of how/why you might use a shoulder in? it seems that for certain school figures there might be a base line usage that would transcend all “schools”?
Master Sanders:
My horse has white scars from abuse with a curb chain before he came to me.
The German training scale is not for him and I’ve been studying Nuno O. and Paul Belasik. He is progressing nicely but I think some of what you have explained would really help my horse, but how do I overcome his scars? He is very sensitive there :sadsmile:
MBM. My father started me down that road being in the last mounted cavalry unit .
They of course used the French Manual and he knew this . I just wanted to be a cowboy so he bought me the outfit but I was the only little kid riding with two hands LOL . He showed me way back the and also how important it was to keep older horses working for their spirit . It is kind of of like making some one retire ,often they give up after that and horses are the same . I dont abuse mine like many do throwing them away and just get a new one after they break them down . Many today also do the same with their parents and people who work for them when they get old who have this mentality I have found , so sad .
They are like a painting we work on their entire life a little at a time allowing them to do what they can in great spirit. yes I am SOOOO proud of that and what my older boys have done. I am sure happy they came to my barn !!! I wonder if anyone noticed the beautiful light suspension of the Spanish walk on that horse, not the mad slamming the ground so often seen ? The deep flexed pelvis , the proud high light neck position . So much to be thankful for.
Shoulder in is a big discusion but I can tell you this . We use the volt to obtain the bend . So the second part of the volt sets that angle which is more than competitve rules ask for . The horse bends far more in the neck than the body by fact . So we take that bend in the volt and by changing the weight in the pelvis, towards the direction of movment the horse moves laterly down the side . At any time we change the weight to the outside the horse volts without changing the bend . So the test is can the horse volt and return to shoulder in with out changing the bend . That bend is also the same in travers etc .Since we keep the bend uniform we weight and muscle the horse more uniformly . We can change that bend if we need to for horses that have certain problems etc but that is a general idea . Of course we can use a full four track ,called a lateral march as the horse gets strong as well .
Yes this works for any horse because it is the natural way a horse moves and reacts in nature . Since it allows the horse to carry the weight better it can only be good for them , However the ones it cant work for right away are those that have locked withers , they can not rise due to the terrible pressure they have been subjected to mostly in the snaffle and their muscles have frozen to defend the horses vertabrae . We allways test this when a new horse comes in . If that is the case that horse needs lots of flexions and may be a manipulation etc to free the spasm . Then we can begain the more normal work.As for lifint the legs we use a lot of voice commands . I would simply reach down and squeeze the leg and say GIVE, until thehorse does and then give a treat . Repeat all the way arround . All of my horses will lift any leg if I stand by it and say “give” . As in riding by the way it is not my job to hold up their leg it is their job . When you put the leg down do not let it fall . Place it down slow and deliberate . it is in your controle now and treat it with respect . Soon that horse will lift that leg for you when you want and hold it their as well .
Dear petstore Junkie . I get lots of horses with huge scars on either side of their mouth from snaffles but I can see the curb doing the same thing with the chain in abusive hands as the serreta does on the nose in Spain .
. I would try and massage those areas with some good healing cream and get the horse used to that first . Don’t just put a curb but use a double and put the chain on a bit loose . I might also add a cavasan . it depends on how sore that area is . My goal would be to get him responding but not from pain in that area which would only contract his mouth and then the entire rest of the horse would go like a domino .
So first I would soften him and check for resistance with jaw flexiions maybe just in the snaffle , no work just that . Next once he was good with those add the double as I said and repeat the flexions with the bradoon. If that goes well see if you can do the flexions with the curb and then the combined ones. Get a book or DVD on the flexions unles you have someone who can teach them to you which is very hard to find . At that point we can hope he starts to get over the trauma he has suffered , if not if he still does not like the curb leave it on but use the cavasan to make your corrections . as he gets lighter and lighter to that try and reintroduce the curb little by little . This is very simplified and as best as I can do in a few words but you get the idea he must be reconditioned , get his trust back and heal inside and out . if you need more help email me at willsanders@earthlink.net
Eagles thank you for answering my questions ! lots for me to think about.
As i have mentioned elsewhere I am fascinated with the idea of the french/baucher way so appreciate the oportunity to have a look into your world
I have read both this thread and the locked on on the UDBB. What I do not understand with some of these threads is why a few posters seem to think that if they have never heard or seen a particular training method, then it must be incorrect.
There are so many aspects of dressage training that are only about 50% correct, and this is because certain things are emphasized at the expense of other important areas. I have to agree with eagle in that many of today’s show ring horses are not coming through completely, which means they are somewhat on the forehand. Whether his riding is on the forehand or not, I cannot tell without pictures. But, his riding does not negate the validity of his message. I can think of several big name clinicians whose written material is very good, but whose execution when viewed was a big disappointment. That still does not negate the written word they presented.
As each generation of riders/trainers moves away from the roots for which dressage training originally aimed, important details that should be included and understood in the progression of the training have been lost.
As to the use of the snaffle bit, this is a bit that is needed to begin the flexion training. The reason is that flexions are designed to influence only one diagonal of the horse at a time. The snaffle is designed to be used on one side at a time only, and while that side is active, the other side needs to remain stationary or inactive. In most ridden dressage work today, this is not understood, as riders attempt to use the snaffle on both sides together at the same time. The snaffle, because of the one-sided fashion in which it is designed to be used, is the bit of lateral bend. Circle work is all about lateral bend.
Initially, longitudinal bend is supposed to come from the rider’s seat, meaning weighted torso and correct use of the diagonal stirrup weighting. The curb bit was not designed to be kept in constant contact with the horse’s mouth. It is designed to be used for brief moments of restriction when the horse is trained to an advanced stage in which the rider is presenting the horse with only one hand on the reins and must rely almost completely on the weight aids, meaning seat. Unfortunately, many, many upper level riders are out there riding with the curb bit constantly engaged, and this means that they are not using their seats correctly. It is the reason so many horses are not coming through completely.
I can also tell you that many trainers for the circus do not spend an eon of time in the snaffle exclusively. Horses are put to the double bridle fairly early. However, the difference is that these trainers use the curb only for brief moments in the developement of collection from the seat. They do not hang on that bit constantly to hold the front end of the horse in a false frame.
The picture that was posted near the beginning of this thread showing the Arabian hunter is nothing like good dressage training. This is a horse whose head has been set, and it has no relevance to the flexion work about which this thread speaking.
I have no knowledge of eagle as a trainer or rider. But, based on what I do know about horse training learned over many years of trial and error, I like what his words have said.
This thread is currently fine in terms of being an introduction for a new poster and a general discussion about Baucher methods if folks are interested, but, eagles, it may be a better, more organic, approach for you to hang around the community for a while and share your approach/opinions in response to training questions on other threads that crop up.
Holding a Q&A “Ask the Trainer” thread doesn’t really work with our format or advertising policies, which may part of the problem with how this and other threads were received. We’ve tweaked your thread title to reflect that the discussion should be more about the methods in general.
You’re welcome to add a link to your website to your signature line (click on “User CP” from the left side of the blue bar near the top of the page, then “Edit Signature” instead of referencing it in your posts.
Thanks for your interest,
Mod 1
I so agree. That goes for hyperflexion as well. Take what is useful to you from a system and leave the rest.
I don’t think of this thread as ‘ask the trainer’. This thread is about Baucher/Racinet style training. If Eagle added his Baucheristic opinion on all other training threads, what a snark fest all would become. Isn’t it better to keep this all in one thread?
Like his system or not, this is a thread with substance and about training, something we seldom see anymore on the boards.
WELL DONE ToN Farms!! 
For those many who have given true standing ovations to my wonderul horse faldon Bravo as well as those who have seen fit to be viscious to offset this thread I leave you with the observation of a a real equine expert and Author who witnesed a demo at a clinic I had done shortly before the one seen . She wrote an article about the entire clinic and what she thought about it in the Equine Journal , The 2008 Romantic Breed edition . Her name is Kip Mistral who has written for about every equine magazine . it was called at the end of the article , which IS titled 'ALL ROADS LEAD TO LIGHTNES , THE FINALE I quote it here exaclty word for word . " Now we were treated to a perfect example of a classiclay trained athelete when Sanders brings out his snow white 25 year old Paso Fino gelding , Faldon Bravo , for a finale exhibition. Sanders had purchased him at a young age when faldon was allready seriously lamed in both front legs abd rehabilitated him with classical training in conjuncture with phtodynamic light therapy . many years later Faldons youthful body defies any guess at his age , a testamont to the value of correct training , and he can’t wait to show Sanders and the audiance what he can do .His expresive dark eyes snapping with excitment , faldon dances lightly and happily through his routine which includes piaffe . passage , and ends by offerinf his master two joyous caprioles caprioles . How moving it is to witnes the beauty of Faldon’s fiery spirit and consumate artistry , and the bond of devotion between this man and his horse " end of quote . At that point their was a REAL standing ovation in the audiance from all the trainers and people present . I suggest the moderator also mention that name calling and personal attacks on me and my horse are in bad taste . I have tried to bring to this thread some understanding of a system that is very hard to find information on ,I appologize to those of you who agian have emailed me off line in horror over how badly people have behaved here and I wish we could have had people who really had an interest but as Jean Calude Said you can shpw this to hundreds but just a few will get it and I suppose he was correct . I still think many would like another way and feel free to contact me off line if that is so . willsanders@earthlink.net I now give my own standing ovation to Baucher and this other way of riding , Good by
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zm6kIMXTKC8
Sir,
I am most curious as to the length of time this horse had been in schooling prior to this video.
My humble observations are these:
I inquire because it appears that the horse is not using his hindquarters at all. He is merely shuffling along, he does not lift in tempo with the hind foot coming up.
He actually appears to have to much weight set back on his hindquarter.
I understand that the in hand work is supposed to correctly balance the horse. I am of the opinion that this horse is not balanced and therefore true collection is not obtained.
The above being stated I do appreciate your discussion of Baucher.
No, but they teach the horse to stay behind the bit and not touch it. Still a false frame.
That’s my problem with the Baucher methods. That and the fact that there is no real engagement/throughness. The horses are never really through their backs, but instead hold them tight and hollow.
[QUOTE=lstevenson;5045110]
No, but they teach the horse to stay behind the bit and not touch it. Still a false frame.
That’s my problem with the Baucher methods. That and the fact that there is no real engagement/throughness. The horses are never really through their backs, but instead hold them tight and hollow.[/QUOTE]
Absolutely
And since they are short coupled horses with the ablitly to track up hollow, it still pulls off some nice trot pics :lol:
Yes I understand ,you are used to YOU putting the horse on the bit and not the horse comming to the bit on its own and free from a mighty grasp . again our way is in front of the leg and behind the
If that horses back were more round and up it would look like a cat on a hot tin roof . Please look at the horse in Piaffe on my gallery page I was PM posted this picture was used in the past on the UDF as an example of a correct piaffe even though they somehow forgot to mention that . For us it is perfect thank you , NOT hollow at all .
You can use all of the German school terminology you want but it won’t explain what we are doing , so your definitions are not valid to us in any manner. You are correcting one language on the baises of another and expecting compliance .
Short back horses can be made to become hollow by the Push pull school in a hearbeat and I have seen plenty that are as they get more popular in the Dressage ring . Paso finos dont lift the hind leg very high and are bred to have a rapid close to the ground foot fall so the horse performed according to its gentic code and that again seperates us in the largest way possible and so I am glad you brought it up . You want some kind of German engineered machine that must be demanded to allways do it one w at a certain spot and place . We work with each horse , its breeding what it can and can’t do and develop that horse in a custom made way .If a horse is off in the front it NEEDS to carry more weight behind, . if it can’t lift up its legs as high as another we develop that as well . The work is NOT to just balance period but balnce according to each horses capabilities and not throw it away because it can not rise to the next demanded level and by another , as ART and POETRY for that animal ,not so cold and precise . This is why in my competitions I ll have for my students it will be for a movemnt as that horse can do it ,. Who developed THEIR horse to its best possible balance and position . ANYONE can win with ANY HORSE if they work it like that .You dont have to like it or agree with it but that it what we are doing so everyone can have a horse that is its best . You see no contact we see freedom and lightnes , you don’t see the horse through if some one is not hanging on its mouth, we know the back is up as we see it rise , see the head drop on its own and then we know it is on the aids We dont rant on abd on with the On the bit Mantra, Decarpentry never even mentioned, but was slid in the FEI rule back as Gospel .
As Phillp Karl said to a very nervous and out done Hess when he gave him all the German Psyho babble to try and put PK down , I dont care about that at all,it means nothing to me . Since you keep trying to make me adhere to your way I have to point this out
Master Racinet said you could show this to a hundred people and maybe one would get it and it is the riding as far as I am concenred of the chosen few who do . For those ( The many who have emailed me with pictures of their horses and want a real dialog to help them after what they were doing was cripling their horses and them ) I am here and for the rest PLEASE respectfully ,go do your own thing and good luck with it . By the way I was also emailed over a dozen pictures of certain members of forums riding who have been very boistrous against me OMG.The poor horses .
They said they don’t want these pictures out and I see why none were offered for me to see . !!!
If I don’t get more posts asking about how to use this on your horse , if the blitzkrieg continues then I am wasting my time and I will simply talk to those who have sent me private emails , Thank you to those who have tried to keep this a way for you to learn about somthing not often found and you can see how it has and is attempted to be destroyed at all costs by the powers that controle the training , breeding the riding the judging the equipment , etc etc etc .
[QUOTE=spirithorse;5045079]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zm6kIMXTKC8
Sir,
I am most curious as to the length of time this horse had been in schooling prior to this video.
My humble observations are these:
I inquire because it appears that the horse is not using his hindquarters at all. He is merely shuffling along, he does not lift in tempo with the hind foot coming up.
He actually appears to have to much weight set back on his hindquarter.
I understand that the in hand work is supposed to correctly balance the horse. I am of the opinion that this horse is not balanced and therefore true collection is not obtained.
The above being stated I do appreciate your discussion of Baucher.[/QUOTE]
well, the horse is a paso fino - i dont think those horses are bred to really lift their legs? they seem to be bred to move is rapid sequence?
also the horse is 26 and had recently recovered from West Nile.
i thought it was an interesting video - mostly because the horse is gaited and yet did a 4 beat piaffe and also a gaited passage.
it never occurred to me that such a thing could happen! very cool and i hope that it gives gaited folks hope
Eagles- re: “on the bit” i know that the original ODG texts never talked about on the bit but more like on the aids…
can you talk about what the original texts actually meant when they were converted to “on the bit” in english?
thanks
