mbm : Thank you for the question Since ther translator was versed in French but not the french Nuances of the equestrian phrases “on the aids” is about all we have and one need to look prior to this to get some ideas .Going back to the 15th and 16th century still no such phrase existed . Tjhat phrase has fixed al of the atention on the front of the horse aand not how it got that way from the rear . Did you know that for about 6000years all of the snaffles had a cheek piece to prevent the bit from sliding and damaging and also helped to turnm the head ? added to this the use of the cavasan and the reins of that bit only heod in the normaly weaker left hand you can see the PAINS that were taken to NOT pull on the mouth .Did you know that cavasans used to be made in Europe thsa theld a snaffle m al of this to PREVENT people from ever using it until thehorse was allready light and not pulling . BUT , in the FEI way their has never been anobjective to preserve a soft and sensitive mouth hence most who right and rant have never even felt a horse with a truly light mouth at all . As I have said here when some do it is allmost to much for them , they can not believe what they have missed for so long So on the aids meant the horse had to be round and poised to move when asked. and soft in the mouth Many of the horses actualy bred for riding back then were more spirited , hot for many reasons , one becuase of the envirenment they lived in (like the Lusitano with the bulls ) and the horse could work to the will of the rider easier than if it was more cold and a bit duller . Watching how the horse prepared its body for these natural conflicts gave a clear picture of what the rider needed to do to get this ON THE AIDS ,lightnes .Did you know that having a horse in front of you with a a head carraige a bit ahead of the vertical the more it is collected as depicted by Museler, were adopted at one time by the FEI under Niggli but have gone pretty much astray as of now ?
For the other poster yes the gaited Horse can do far more than just run in a circle etc. Here they are one of my FAVORITE Breeds and I am starting a breeding program for the very rare PPR Paso to my one in a million 15.3 hand Stallion Legolas . He can gait in place with a round back and dropped pelvis , even take a few steps in gait backwards !!! At the asking of the riders back he can extend and you can see a picture of him extending on the gallery section of my website on a relaxed hand and he can in a few strides go back in place all on the flexing of the riders back . if anyone is interested in gaited horse Baroque -Academic work please contact me !!! it is a new world not explored at all today .
it is interesting how the idea of the horse working in front of the verticle and poll high has really just gone by the wayside for the most part…
what is more interesting is that when you see horses work in nature they go poll high and ifv (for the most part, yes you can find pics that show poll low and btv, but it inst what they do most of the time)…
when a horse is in perfect natural balance and working over its back in nature they are poll high ifv and the body tells the story how correct this is!
i find it sad that this idea is so passe’ now and that horses are worked so low in front and so on the forehand. …
i have found it also fascinating that many of the Hack classes in the breed shows (Connemars specifically) show a much better balance and “frame” than most dressage pics… and these horses are ridden in the dbl quite young i believe.
also on a note about contact of the mouth… the best feeling i have ever had riding has been when i have my horse working in balance and it feels like i can just push my hands forward and teh horse will follow the contact and it gets very very light… ie: the weight of the reins (horrors!!) … in that moment is is incredibly buoyant and well, yes - fun! 
now if only i can do that for more that a moment in time 
and i will say that in defense of the german system - there are certain german riders who i think ride with a very soft forward thinking hand… and those contacts are lovely to watch
I looked at the website. Wow, you can become a certified instructor, a world class rider, you can be all levels up to master, and you can do it long distance! Maybe even with a Majikal horse.:yes:
I wish getting my medical degree were that organized and simple.
Mickydoodle - do you have a problem with jane savoys program? or Anky’s? or any other trainer that does distance learning?
do you also have a problem with the system that PK, WAZ, (and others!) have in certifying their students who they deem to be credible teachers?
The difference with all of those you mention and this site in question is that Jane, Anky, Walter, de Kunffy, etc offer products, video commentary, and help with your riding, and options to train with them, attend clinics etc but NONE of them say that you MUST buy their products in order to become a student (see “requirements for students” on the web page in question).
NOR do Jane et al. promise to CERTIFY you as an INSTRUCTOR of their method long distance, even if you do not have a horse! (albeit with the “academic” designation)
Heheeeee! :lol:
I find this thread very interesting. A little while back I posted about problems going from a double bridle (I had been riding in a pelham, but the horse had been ridden in a double at one point) to a snaffle so I could show in lower level dressage. My problem was I couldn’t stop him in the snaffle because he pulled and pulled and fought me. All of the replies I received on the thread were that I had horrible hands and needed to train myself to be a better rider.
I started working with a connected riding instructor, and a dressage trainer. I’m riding him in a double bridlewith no issues at all. The snaffle simply wouldn’t work with him. Of course I had and still have improvements to make to my riding, but I find this training method interesting to read about because it seems to be a bit of what I was going through with my horse. He is beyond soft if the double bridle, and with his poll up higher, he has almost stopped coughing (he would cough and cough as soon as he got ‘on the bit’ with the snaffle). Now he just clears his throat a little when we warm up, but isn’t wheezing and coughing throughout the ride.
Interestingly enough, my boy received his dressage instruction from a French trainer. My horse is so much happier in the double bridle.
All instructors get paid one way or another. Some with clinic or lesson fees, as you mention.
We’ve seen a number of threads started by people who want to learn and progress, but who are far from instructors and/or unable to haul to them. Being able to buy a DVD and study it on their own, and then get a critique of themselves riding or applying the knowledge learned through the DVD - that’s an approach that will help some people.
What’s wrong with an alternative approach?
[QUOTE=mbm;5045663]
Mickydoodle - do you have a problem with jane savoys program? or Anky’s? or any other trainer that does distance learning?
do you also have a problem with the system that PK, WAZ, (and others!) have in certifying their students who they deem to be credible teachers?[/QUOTE]
Actually Jane Savoie offers a lot of her information and training for free. Also in her media she tells you to gain the most from the information that she is giving to you, you still need a trainer. Her information is to help riders that may not have consistent access to a trainer and may have to clinic instead of regular weekly training.
And, You could go online and find numerous videos of Clinics, Competitions, and how the horses under the trainers above are performing. Hell Most of the trainers mentioned are still competing and if you are a USDF member you can look up their horse and show records to see their scores. It is all public record no smoke and mirrors.
Really I have not seen a trainer so examined in my years than Anky. Because of the rollkur she is not only pursued by the community, she has to explain her methods to the press as well. And really is you feel that your methods work and are sound you do not really mind the scrutiny.
The Master seems to be the one that has problems with public scrutiny.
And since I’m here I would like to see pictures of all of the horses that are being ridden in a snaffle at competitions scoring well completely on the forehand.
[QUOTE=stryder;5045767]
All instructors get paid one way or another. Some with clinic or lesson fees, as you mention.
We’ve seen a number of threads started by people who want to learn and progress, but who are far from instructors and/or unable to haul to them. Being able to buy a DVD and study it on their own, and then get a critique of themselves riding or applying the knowledge learned through the DVD - that’s an approach that will help some people.
What’s wrong with an alternative approach?[/QUOTE]
There is nothing with an alternative approach. Actually if you are working the training scale there may be many answers to a problem that you may be having. For example I am working that is in almost perfect rhythm in the walk and the trot and becomes unbalanced and on the forehand in the canter.
There are a few reasons why the horse is doing this. The first is that I am human and I am fallible and some times I do not give him the most balances start. The next reason is that he had time off and it is difficult for him to put that weight on the hind end and push like he should.
So even though in walk and trot he is keenly working up the training scale the canter needs some more care.
Now in the dressage method that I propose to, lets say competitive for this tirade, there are a couple of ways to handle this. One is canter in a slight shoulder fore, Canter walk transitions, Taking him out in the field and working him on hills, or cavaletti work.
Any trainer would suggest one or more of these different things and all of them in their own time would work and they all are different methods.
The master would suggest that I have been riding the horse all wrong all this time and I would have to go to his school and he would slap the horse in a double bridle and get his head up lose the back and have the horse step under himself with out bending at the hocks and call it the four beat canter.
I see where the temptation to put a horse like this in a double bridle would come from. It would be a quick fix but it would not be a correct fix. By the way, the way that I am fixing this problem is with transitions, canter, trot for now because canter walk is hard for him. The transitions are working his canter depart is lofty with the weight going on the hind end. He holds that canter for a few strides and we loose it, but that my friends is training. There are no short cuts to a proper dressage horse.
This is quite interesting. Both the different approach/concept, and the history lesson (I find the history of dressage, and the “experimentation” facinating, as now days people seem afraid to try new things!)
Question: Gelding who is sore behind. Was likely sore for a year before I realized it…just evenly enough it was not visible. First clue came from being unable to do good downward transitions despite training, second clue came from his trot on the lunge. Blocking confirmed soreness. Not entirely sure why, numerous treatments did not help, but may be something to do with farrier leaving too much toe. and fixing that is helping. Now he is back in slow work. I notice(d) that when he was/is SORE, he would round down (long and low) and get a big flippy round trot. It was the “ideal” training at trot frame (judges/clinicians loved it)…yet for me, over time, I learned it signalled he was sore.
This has made me ponder just what muscles/joints they are really using to do that long/low/big trot. If my guy does it when sore behind, how can he possibly be building the muscled needed to progress?
I have not come to any conclusions, but this one horse has made me think/rethink the training process somewhat. Still in the thinking mode.
Any thoughts on this observation?
Question #2: Any recommendations on good “History of Dressage” books? French or other?
I would add to the above (Gingers post) that problems will really arise in lead changes with an early jump to the double, since the horse has never truly stretched down and round at the canter to soften and keep impulsion. Not to mention that the horse may not be moving fully “through” the bridle if the hand is barely lifted for a halt like the poster had explained should be.
The hind end that is uneven behind in the movements (like Eagles said of Nunos horse) seemingly would have trouble with extensions and tempis in that they are not balanced enough to really be “through”.
Ginger, I find it very odd and annoying that you are putting words in someone else’s mouth, and giving “the Masters” fix. Perhaps you should allow him to give his own fix.
I am curious as to your previous experience with this method as you must have significant insight and knowledge of it to be able to create such a strong opinion.
I wanted to add that a client attended a very well respected BNT’s clinic recently, and he said he puts horses in a double at age 5 for schooling. So perhaps the early jump to the double is not unique to this method?
I am thinking the uniquness is more the early intro of collection.
[QUOTE=CHT;5045900]
Ginger, I find it very odd and annoying that you are putting words in someone else’s mouth, and giving “the Masters” fix. Perhaps you should allow him to give his own fix.
I am curious as to your previous experience with this method as you must have significant insight and knowledge of it to be able to create such a strong opinion.[/QUOTE]
Well I am going by what he is saying in his posts. You do not think that he would put the horse in a double? I can honestly say that I an very unfamiliar with his method because he has seemed to pilfered what he wanted from some old french texts and sort of put together a training method that none of us will be privies to unless we join his club. And since I do not believe in secret clubs in riding I call foul.
The French method I am used to is the one practiced at the Cadre Nior . I have a french trainer born in France that is where she learned to ride. She lived and trained near Versailles and The Maser’s methods are never came up in our training. Also The Care Nior does “the airs” with Selle Francias not gated or baroque but big warm bloods.
Just a little food for thought.
[QUOTE=CHT;5045904]
I wanted to add that a client attended a very well respected BNT’s clinic recently, and he said he puts horses in a double at age 5 for schooling. So perhaps the early jump to the double is not unique to this method?
I am thinking the uniquness is more the early intro of collection.[/QUOTE]
If the horse is doing FEI Young horse training and is showing then yes the horse will be in a double however the training scale was fallowed to get the horse to that point. And remember if you are using the double correctly you are only training 20% of the time in the double the rest in the snaffle. As it’s so nicely put here the old dead guys did not mean for a horse to only be ridden in the double once the horse reaches a level where they are ready for one.
CHT, if you look around hard you may be able to find a copy of Jean Claude Racinet’s ANOTHER HORSEMANSHIP.
It’s a short book. It contains a brief overview of “French” horsemanship, with some very general history of how the French adopted the German techniques in the 20th century, while the original French school “of lightness” was preserved in Portugal.
There is an interesting eulogy for Racinet here:
http://www.riding-and-reading.com/eulogy.html
You might want to look around that site for more reading.
The first time I heard of Racinet was years ago, when the internet was young. I was on a forum on GEnie (that’s how long ago) and a western rider came to the dressage group and said there was a gentleman named Racinet who was teaching where she rode. He had been impressed with her riding and asked if she would like to learn dressage. At least that’s how I remember it. Around the same time, I came across his book, and I was blown away. On our forum, we tried to get him to post, but he was not interested–few people were even online back then, much less a French horseman of his generation. So he graciously refused our begging to tell us everything he knew in a few forum posts.
I never heard him mentioned in US dressage circles, but I took what I could from his book and used it very successfully. It appealed to me, both physically and psychologically. I never said much about it, because I was being taught differently. But as the years went by I found that I could have good rides on horses that would not perform well for other riders.
I do not know the OP, but I have a great respect for Racinet and Karl and those who have preserved a “different” horsemanship. I wish I had been lucky enough to ride with him.
Pilfered? The study and adaptation of what’s gone before is now called pilfering?
Further, we do not know whether Sanders would put your horse into a double, or specifically what he would do.
To YankeeNoodle (since you cant read my site I cant read your name) I never said one can become a Master in my distance learning program. That word was not used in an obtainable level ,this is classic make up stuff to make a person look bad , pure propaganda .
Anyone can come and ride here I have 14 horses and five school Master stallions . People who have an interest in only the academic portion of what we do CAN obtain that just like you medical training , if yours is an MD degree than it was academic until you did a residency etc .You had a degree but were not a Dr until then . So here if and until you get a horse to test on you can pass some academic tests .
In case you forgot when you go to a a school YOU HAVE TO BUY THE BOOKS THEY TELL YOU at least I did in college .Its not super secret it is just what we do and what one will be tested on . If you are learning this way you need to learn our methods.
That seems so basic I can hardly believe I am explaining it to an adult . If I made up what I am teaching then so did Mestre Luis Valenca of Portugal one of Europes greatest masters , Master Jean Claude Racinet, Master Joa Oliveira ,not to Mention Baucher etc .
Thanks MBM
MBM;
Thanks for the info.
I have had the privilage to watch various breeds of gaited horses including Paso Finos.
I was aquainted with a lady trainer in
So. Cal many years ago who schooled her Pasos in dressage. I can tell you they can piaffe quite well and age does not have anything to do with it.
That being said West Nile virus does effect horses quite negatively.
Once again thank you for the info.
