[QUOTE=stryder;5046103]
Pilfered? The study and adaptation of what’s gone before is now called pilfering?
.[/QUOTE]
yes, and now it seems that the business model of “trainer” is now considered immoral - imagine! charging $$ for someone to take time and effort to teach you (or your horse) something? the horror!
seriously, where do people come up with this stuff?
[QUOTE=ginger708;5045947]
If the horse is doing FEI Young horse training and is showing then yes the horse will be in a double however the training scale was fallowed to get the horse to that point. [/QUOTE]
i am curious… as far as i know - and that inst much when it comes to french school - the french school doesn’t have a “training scale”?
it would make sense since french is balance before movement and the training scale is how to get balance through movement, yes?
Spirit horse ,your welcome they are great horses !!! We have a way but it is malable ,not set in stone . No you don’t know what I will do with a horse and nither do I until I see it and evaluate it for its best potential. As an example . Nuno Oliveira trained a horse , one of the last he trained named Modona. That horse wound up In Mestre Valenca’s shool when I was their . It had a terrible conformation as the books tell you is correct and it was off in the front . If you saw that horse in the stall you would never imagine it could hold zany gait for long . Luis had my wife ride that horse and we watched as he wanted me to see what would happen and before your eyes this horse collected and became a dancer , a beautiful animal . Luis explained that Nuno had balanced that horse for what its defects were , more on the hind and other things I learned to compensate for its otherwise defects . Not a strict cold one two three you must do this NOW .
I learned to form a horse based on what it could do well , much as a person with one arm or leg can still learn to do sports and excell In those cases we all applaud . In the REAL Dressage world I see here those horses that can’t do the next level with machine perfection are sold , discarded for a "better model " If they person has the funds . So more and more expensive horses are winning .This formation of natural qaulites for the life ot that horse is much higher equitation to me than buying the most expensive horses and using them until they can’t do a certain thing and then just looking to buy another who can .
That horse madona was not perfect here and their and would not have won any dressage competition . but perfectly trained for what it could possibly be . That horse served as a great schoolmaster until he past away at old age and was an inspiration to me and the others who saw the work the master had done with him .
[QUOTE=ginger708;5045947]
And remember if you are using the double correctly you are only training 20% of the time in the double the rest in the snaffle. As it’s so nicely put here the old dead guys did not mean for a horse to only be ridden in the double once the horse reaches a level where they are ready for one.[/QUOTE] Really? Don’t believe everything you read in books or on the net. Do the SRS horses school 80% of the time in a snaffle? Are you sure the ODG’s did? I know for a fact that many current FEI horses do not. There is nothing at all wrong with riding in a double 100% of the time.
Also, what MBM asked, what Training Scale do the French follow?
Sorry, couldn’t read your whole post, it was giving me a headache. But on this snippet at the beginning, I will say: Oh yes, there are plenty of tight, hollow horses in all of the schools, unfortunately. But there is some good riding with horses lifting and using their backs properly in other schools, and I have yet to see a single one with Baucher’s methods.
Do you have any videos to show me otherwise? The only video provided from you so far is a horse on long reins who is not using his back or hind legs well. At all. I would love to see a riding video.
If you can not see that horse had a raised back and was using it superbly , with no saddle on it, a riding video would do less actualy . if you were here I could have you see the back rise or feel it under saddlle and some people’s eyes get very wide when they feel the horse rise and get that conection .
Stop by if you are ever in the area . Joa Oliviersa was very impresed at that horses use of his back as was Master Racinet and both said so , sorry that is good enough for me .
Now some time back in a far away euro country it was obsvservd that horses pulling very heavy loads in battle LOCKED their back and pushed way out behind with their legs in order to carry this load .This produced exagerated long moves . Some one got the bright idea THAT looked nice and was using the back well ( to produce those exagerations ) and in order to duplicate that load bearing strain , to lock the back , the rider had to put lots of force on the mouth of the horse and lock the back . Add here lots of trick terminology to supprt a stiff locked back as correct and descredit the rest as short backed old time horses .By the way as a side note I think reffering to the Past venerated masters as Old dead Guys gives some hint as to where our reverance for historical methods have gone.
Those exagerated unatural big gaits were made via the locked back and we begain to see a big change in what "using the back " meant . We use the back as Dr Deb Bennet describes as correct not this "other " way . Baucher was NOTED for having his horses called cats on a hot tin roof as some did not realize this arched back was essential then either
[QUOTE=lstevenson;5046381]
I have yet to see a single one with Baucher’s methods.
Do you have any videos to show me otherwise? The only video provided from you so far is a horse on long reins who is not using his back or hind legs well. At all. I would love to see a riding video.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=eagles;5046127]
To YankeeNoodle (since you cant read my site I cant read your name) I never said one can become a Master in my distance learning program. That word was not used in an obtainable level ,this is classic make up stuff to make a person look bad , pure propaganda .
Anyone can come and ride here I have 14 horses and five school Master stallions . People who have an interest in only the academic portion of what we do CAN obtain that just like you medical training , if yours is an MD degree than it was academic until you did a residency etc .You had a degree but were not a Dr until then . So here if and until you get a horse to test on you can pass some academic tests .
In case you forgot when you go to a a school YOU HAVE TO BUY THE BOOKS THEY TELL YOU at least I did in college .Its not super secret it is just what we do and what one will be tested on . If you are learning this way you need to learn our methods.
That seems so basic I can hardly believe I am explaining it to an adult . If I made up what I am teaching then so did Mestre Luis Valenca of Portugal one of Europes greatest masters , Master Jean Claude Racinet, Master Joa Oliveira ,not to Mention Baucher etc .[/QUOTE]
Hard to understand your poor grammar and writing, as you report that your father was in the US calvary, I assume you are US born and bred.
Your own web site: you can submit answers to tests (for $$) and videos to:
"As you progress you will be able to earn rank in the Academy. You will start of as:
This clearly indicates that you CERTIFY instructors that you have never seen in person. You also have “COMPETITIONS” and “placings, high scoring, etc” based on VIDEOS SUBMITTED.
You are a snake oil salesman.
ps-not one of the old dead masters you claim to have ridden with “require” anyone to cough up $$ for spurious “texts” before becoming students. You must admit riding is much better taught on the horse- how can you claim to “certify” someone as an instructor when you have never seen them in person?
I see some of the townsfolk are lining up to buy a bottle, Mickydoodle…
They’re taken with his patter.
Are you talking about the horse in the long lines video??
If so, then I completely disagree with you. That horse was not using his back very much at all. Then again all he really did was a strange version of the piaffe, a spanish walk, and a few other “tricks”. A riding video showing trot, canter, and transitions foward and back would more clearly show the lack of throughness.
[QUOTE=eagles;5046400]
If you can not see that horse had a raised back and was using it superbly , with no saddle on it, a riding video would do less actualy . if you were here I could have you see the back rise or feel it under saddlle and some people’s eyes get very wide when they feel the horse rise and get that conection .
Stop by if you are ever in the area . Joa Oliviersa was very impresed at that horses use of his back as was Master Racinet and both said so , sorry that is good enough for me .
Now some time back in a far away euro country it was obsvservd that horses pulling very heavy loads in battle LOCKED their back and pushed way out behind with their legs in order to carry this load .This produced exagerated long moves . Some one got the bright idea THAT looked nice and was using the back well ( to produce those exagerations ) and in order to duplicate that load bearing strain , to lock the back , the rider had to put lots of force on the mouth of the horse and lock the back . Add here lots of trick terminology to supprt a stiff locked back as correct and descredit the rest as short backed old time horses .By the way as a side note I think reffering to the Past venerated masters as Old dead Guys gives some hint as to where our reverance for historical methods have gone.
Those exagerated unatural big gaits were made via the locked back and we begain to see a big change in what "using the back " meant . We use the back as Dr Deb Bennet describes as correct not this "other " way . Baucher was NOTED for having his horses called cats on a hot tin roof as some did not realize this arched back was essential then either[/QUOTE]
Once again, I say you are a snake oil salesman.
The nice little grey horse in the video was jigging and occasionally attempting a Spanish Walk. What you propose as Piaffe, was at best an irregular, three beat jig. Same with whatever you qualify as a passage. For the Passade, he did a credible attempt at jumping and kicking out, as limited by his conformation. The Spanish Walk could have been much better, I have seen Chuck Grant and quite a few others teach it with much more consistency.
Hmm… well that horse certainly is nicely active behind (then again is a breed that is naturally active behind), but can you not see that this horse is hollow in the back??
[QUOTE=lstevenson;5046456]
Hmm… well that horse certainly is nicely active behind (then again is a breed that is naturally active behind), but can you not see that this horse is hollow in the back??[/QUOTE]
Either way (and I do agree with your assesment) the video is not, NOT of the OP- where is a real video of the OP RIDING?
BECOMING A STUDENT OF THE BAROQUE EQUESTRIAN ACADEMY
So what are the advantages to becoming a distance learning student of the Academy of Baroque and Academic Equitation? It has been said that the best moments a rider has with their horse occur in the privacy of their own arena. How often do you go for a lesson and your not relaxed, perhaps you are yelled at by an abusive teacher, you become stiff, your horse mimics you and all goes down hill from there?
As a distance learning student of the Academy of Baroque and Academic Equitation you will receive special lessons you can watch and listen to over and over. In your own arena with your horse on the day and hour YOU choose you can put these lessons into practice. You will be admitted to a student-only group on the internet where you can ask questions on that material and receive personal answers. You then have the option to make a video of you and your horse performing the material you have purchased and get an in-depth evaluation with suggestions directly from Master Sanders. No travel, your own schedule, at your own pace and learning directly from the Master, not his helpers or other students of his. The material is progressive and one must buy the material in order and test in order.
As you progress you will be able to earn rank in the Academy. You will start of as:
Along the way we will offer distance competitions of various kinds that adhere to our philosophy, training and riding methods. If you wish to compete, you will be allowed to submit a video of you and your horse performing at your best, the required test. After the closing date all who sent in a video will be judged and awards will be given to first, second, and third places. The results will be placed on our web site. All you need to do to start is register, purchase Master Sanders book Baroque and Academic Training Concepts and the first DVD on Jaw Flexions.
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REQUIREMENTS FOR STUDY AT THE BAROQUE EQUESTRIAN ACADEMY
To enroll as an apprentice of the Baroque Equestrian Academy, we require a yearly registration of $50. This gets you access to the study groups private forum and a copy of William Sander’s book, Baroque and Academic Training Concepts. At this point, you are expected to work at submitting videos of yourself working your horse under saddle or in hand for evaluation as a real student of an academy would do. Each lesson submitted needs to be accompanied by the goals you are trying to achieve in this ride or work with a fee of $50. Each video is to be no longer than one hour. Master Sanders will evaluate your video and give comments and suggestions for your improvement.
If you have any friends or relatives who are into classical riding, give them a membership to the Baroque Equestrian Academy as a gift for any occasion. It’s a real gift that will benefit them for the rest of their life. Just send me the email address of the recipient and I will welcome them and announce the gift! William.
There is no limit to the number of lessons you wish to take in this manner, but a student is expected to supply no less than one video lesson per month to keep their registration active. If you fall under one per month you must pay to reregister as a student again each time this occurs to resume study. So if you pay the $50 for the year but then fail to send in one lesson a month, at the second month of no lessons you need to repay the yearly fee of $50 to stay on the forum and be an active apprentice. We want serious apprentices who want to progress and one must ride using the suggestions to improve. Most of our students submit one per week as you would take at least one weekly lesson at any school you belonged to.
To progress to level 2, the Student of the Baroque and Academic Equitation Academy, you must first purchase the required study material of Master Sanders:
Each of these subjects requires a written and practical test. You will film the practical part demonstrating the material taught in each DVD and you must pass a written test given by Master Sanders to you. Each test costs $100 and if you pass you will be issued a certificate from the school on each subject. The test will be broken down in various components of each topic and you must have an average of 80 percent to pass. If you fail the exam you may retest in one month.
AFTER you pass all three of those topics, you will be given the title of Student Level One of the Academy and receive a certificate verifying this. The work will be progressive from there, and more video material will be posted to continue up the ladder of grading within the academy. Various electives will also be offered including gaited horse specialties, The Dao Yin of Riding (various special internal methods to become a better rider and bond with your horse). But to even be able to receive such training you must be at least be Student Level One of the academy. The secrets of any academy were always reserved for the dedicated students and this is no different. Enrollment is limited due to Master Sanders time. To assure yourself of a slot in the academy please enroll as soon as possible.
SCHOOL WITHOUT A HORSE
What if you want to study but currently don’t have a horse to ride? You can still register and only take the academic tests. Your grading will have “Academic Only” after it. When you get a horse you will be allowed to submit a test and if you pass your grading will stand but the “Academic Only” portion will be removed. This way you can still learn and progress until you acquire a horse to test with. The one required lesson a month will be written and based on Master Sander’s book and DVDs.
AROQUE ACADEMY EQUESTRAIN COMPETITIONS
The International Academy of Baroque and Academic Equestrian Education will at times offer special competitions open to all current registered apprentices and above. Master Sanders will pick a topic. Everyone will submit their entry fee, film their best efforts with their horse in the contest topics (like work in hand, etc.) and submit your video in the required time period to Master Sanders who will evaluate and judge each participant. The first three places awarded will be shown on the forum. Awards will be given out respectively. High point special awards will be given out at the end of each year for the categories shown in. In this way, you are at home with no pressure doing your best. If you don’t like it, film it over. If your horse is not up to the usual good performance, wait for the next day. You get to submit the very best you and your horse can do, what can be better? You will not only have fun, be relaxed, but each participant will get pointers on what was great and what to do better next time. You will be rewarded for CORRECT work and ALL horses will be on even ground, whether you are competing with a Shetland pony or a Lusitano. No school has ever been set up this way and you can be among the school’s first pioneers who will graduate and go on to teach for the sake of the horse as well. Remember, no travel, no gas expense, no abusive yelling at you or your horse, you set the time per week etc. you wish to ride and film and you can do a do-over any time you don’t like what was filmed.
WORK-IN-HAND AND RIDING SEMINARS WITH MASTER SANDERS
Master Sanders will be available to do seminars. We offer a work-in-hand seminar as well as a riding seminar where Master Sanders will instruct the riders on their horses. The rate to host a seminar is $150 per horse per lesson, minimum 6 horses with airfare, hotel, and food paid as well. Auditing fee is $30 split 50-50 with Master Sanders and the host.
Please contact us to enroll in the International Academy of Baroque and Academic Equestrian Education or to answer any questions about the Academy.
[QUOTE=lstevenson;5046456]
Hmm… well that horse certainly is nicely active behind (then again is a breed that is naturally active behind), but can you not see that this horse is hollow in the back??[/QUOTE]
Take a look at this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-13ua-f0T3A
and then tell me precisely how you can tell one of these horses is hollow in the back and the other is not?
I don’t think either one is.
Classical Dressage ?
Mr. Sanders;
I went to your website and in your Mission Statement this caught my eye: “OUR competitions will be to see if we can show MOMENTS of what we desire.”
I had the privilege of meeting Mr. Racinet and moments are not what he sought. I have had the privilege of meeting a couple of individuals who knew N. Oliveira and they referenced that is was more than moments sought after.
Dr. Klimke never sought moments, and he was most effective in presenting classical dressage in the competitive arena.
I have read Baucher finding something he says as informative and others as void of the horse’s requirements.
I have personally known several U. S. Cavalry officers and am well aware of the schooling methods practiced.
So I must disagree with your presentation of Baucher, et al, simply because you are leaving out the requirements of the horse. Col. Podhajsky was always seeking a better line of communication with the horse and never lost sight of the fact that the horses are our teachers, we are not the teachers of the horse.
What we ask of our horses, they can already accomplish. It is our interference with their fluidity, suppleness and correct engagement of the forehand, back and hindquarters that degenerates the wondrous movements of the horse.
Numerous individuals have stated to you in this thread that the horse is not in collection, the back is not up. the hindfeet are not in correct action.
Yet you insist that what we see is correct and ok. I believe you are doing a disservice to dressage riders and observers through the presentation of inadequate dressage. Sir, an unridden horse can animate better dressage than what you presented.
It is one thing to discuss the old classical masters, it is another to present that which they were surely not working for.
The world is coming to an end. Soon. The Reverend posted something I agree with!
And if there’s anyone who’s an expert on inadequate dressage, it’s him.
Totilas has a few moments of tension in the back, mainly in the first halt and in the trot extensions. But to compare apples to apples, the piaffe (which is the only thing we see in PK’s video), Totilas’s piaffe is WAY better through his back. From him I get a feeling in the piaffe of active suppleness. From PK’s horse I get the feeling of active tension (especially towards the end of that video where he is clearly hollow in the back.)
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