Baucher method

[MelantheLLC]

Sorry, but it’s not useful to just say “Totilas is WAY better through his back” and you “get a feeling” of active suppleness.

What precisely are you looking at that tells you this? Granted, Totilas and Karl’s horse are quite different in their style of movement (I love them both), and yet the lifting of the back is the lifting of the back. Doubtless Totilas is going to win in a competitive arena, but does that mean Karl’s horse is stiff and hollow? Are you SURE? Or are you just seeing what you want to see?

You said you had never seen a horse trained using Baucher’s methods that wasn’t tight and hollow, and asked for videos. Assuming you are actually interested, and not just blowing smoke, I’ll suggest Karl’s 4 dvd set The School of Classical Dressage. Then you can make your own conclusions based on longer and broader videos. He starts with the training of a young horse and goes through double bridle and advanced gymnastics. The last DVD is high school, and includes a video of Karl’s last ride on his GP horse (trained at the Cadre Noir) before its retirement.

Unfortunately for you, these DVD’s are expensive, and apparently have not been pirated onto youtube as of this writing. So if you are really interested, you can spend the money and perhaps learn a little that you didn’t know. Or you can continue to be certain you must be right and anyone who doesn’t see what you think you see must be wrong.

[lstevenson]

@MelantheLLC;5046518

does that mean Karl’s horse is stiff and hollow? Are you SURE? Or are you just seeing what you want to see?

Oh yes, I’m SURE that PK’s horse is hollow in his back esp near the end of that video. If you don’t see it then maybe YOU are just seeing what you want to see.

Look at the slow motion part of the piaffe and you will see a bulging brachiocephalicus muscle on the underside of his neck. Just one “clue” that his head and neck are drawn up and back from tension in the back.

[mbm]

PKs horse did not look hollow to me at all.

what the germans want and clearly what the french want is different.

and truthfully i am liking the french way more and more as time goes on.

i

[MelantheLLC]

Thank you, I appreciate a specific clue to support your contention that the horse is stiff and hollow. I do like to discuss this sort of thing, and what annoys me is not when people disagree but when they arm-wave vaguely from a position of “why can’t YOU see what I see?”

Along the line of respectful disagreement, if you stop the motion in the right places in Gal’s video, you will see the same muscle bulge on Totilas, particularly when he transfers his weight back for a particularly collected movement, for instance the canter pirouette at 4:48. It is somewhat disguised by his head set, which is lower than Karl’s horse, but it is very much there.

Also note the underline of the horse shown from 1:11 to 1:50 and the other high school movements at 4:30 in this SRS vid

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pn6Jmqs9IHQ

When the Lipps are not highly collected, just trotting with their heads lower, they don’t show that bulge. So I am not as convinced as you are that this bulge is a certain indication of a stiff and hollow back. I think it is part of a high degree of collection in a horse, and you can see it on Totilas as on the Lipps if you look closely.

(OE: personally, I look more closely at the area behind the saddle, and the lower flank, to see whether I think the horse is lifting and using its back as a lever in collection. By that criteria, the Lipps don’t come off very well. But Karl’s horse is fine.)

[lstevenson]

@MelantheLLC;5046544

So I am not as convinced as you are that this bulge is a certain indication of a stiff and hollow back. I think it is part of a high degree of collection in a horse, and you can see it on Totilas as on the Lipps if you look closely.

Sorry, but no. There is no way that a horse in true, correct collection should have a bulging brachiocephalicus.

A horse in true collection lifts the base of the neck, right in front of the withers. And the brachiocephalicus muscle will relax when the topline of the neck is stretched and not compressed from front to back (which is what the horse does when he hollows his back).

[MelantheLLC]

Well, we are now down to the brass tacks.

You have stated your certain position, and made it clear that you know what true collection is. So who am I to argue with you? I like to look with as clear and open eyes as I can, and I see a lot of bulging brachs on all those vids, but maybe you don’t.

[mickeydoodle]

[QUOTE=MelantheLLC;5046544]
Thank you, I appreciate a specific clue to support your contention that the horse is stiff and hollow. I do like to discuss this sort of thing, and what annoys me is not when people disagree but when they arm-wave vaguely from a position of “why can’t YOU see what I see?”

Along the line of respectful disagreement, if you stop the motion in the right places in Gal’s video, you will see the same muscle bulge on Totilas, particularly when he transfers his weight back for a particularly collected movement, for instance the canter pirouette at 4:48. It is somewhat disguised by his head set, which is lower than Karl’s horse, but it is very much there.

Also note the underline of the horse shown from 1:11 to 1:50 and the other high school movements at 4:30 in this SRS vid

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pn6Jmqs9IHQ

When the Lipps are not highly collected, just trotting with their heads lower, they don’t show that bulge. So I am not as convinced as you are that this bulge is a certain indication of a stiff and hollow back. I think it is part of a high degree of collection in a horse, and you can see it on Totilas as on the Lipps if you look closely.

(OE: personally, I look more closely at the area behind the saddle, and the lower flank, to see whether I think the horse is lifting and using its back as a lever in collection. By that criteria, the Lipps don’t come off very well. But Karl’s horse is fine.)[/QUOTE]

The Lippizaners are lovely- but really look at some of the school movements. Often the “collected” canter is four beat, sometimes it is a “tranter”- very irregular and indistinct. The airs above ground are nice tricks, but except for the levade do not represent any collections.

[mbm]

[QUOTE=mickeydoodle;5046561]
The Lippizaners are lovely- but really look at some of the school movements. Often the “collected” canter is four beat, sometimes it is a “tranter”- very irregular and indistinct. The airs above ground are nice tricks, but except for the levade do not represent any collections.[/QUOTE]

are you saying that you feel that what the SRS does is not true collection and or true dressage?

[mickeydoodle]

[QUOTE=mbm;5046566]
are you saying that you feel that what the SRS does is not true collection and or true dressage?[/QUOTE]

no, not the SRS, but the video posted above as being Lipps ridden according to this guy’s “school”

[mbm]

??? who said the SRS horses are being ridden “in this guys school”?

i think the video was posted as an example of usage of the back?

[CosMonster]

Ok, I haven’t read everything past page 4, so sorry if I miss stuff. But I wanted to share my experience working with a trainer who lists Baucher’s 2nd Method as one of his primary influences.

First, too, I should say I was kind of dragged there. A client paid the fee for me to attend and really pressured me to, and since I’m always interested in different approaches (even though I do dismiss many of them right off) I figured it would be a fun weekend with a gal I like and plenty of nice horses.

Damn, is all I can say. I watched this trainer work with riders. He insisted that they be effective, and his exercises backed that up. I watched him work with horses. He focused on softness, including the horse being round and seeking contact with the bit. In fact I saw him spend special time with a couple of horses who were flashy as hell but not through or soft at all. And watching him ride…wow.

This was not Mr. Sanders, but from reading the post it seems they follow similar philosophies and methods (I do not know Mr. Sanders so don’t know if there is difference in the execution). I just thought I’d post my first hand experience with a fantastic trainer who likes Baucher.

[princessfluffybritch]

This is a real interesting thread. It just reminds me of those in the past who really did ride back to front, Neckerman, klimke, Grette-Jensen (sp?).

I guess I’ve taken from both worlds, classical and modern. From classical, my horses were very light, soft, and sought being on the bit, taught by flexions, but gaining those flexions by pushing the horse from back to front… Then keeping them on the bit by use of the seat and legs, which also became lighter aids, but the aids always started from the back into soft hands. A face that is vertical or very slightly nose out-and kept that way from behind. Collection taught by using patterns and corners, and circles, and shoulder in; somewhat following the levels of modern dressage. But, my riding is always getting the engine moving in the back, and pushing the horse into soft hands and keeping him on my hands with my seat and legs, and letting the patterns etc, to gain the collection.

It’s upsetting to see that correct riding and training are not the backbone of modern dressage. All I see now is competition horses getting high marks for being behind the vertical, there is no lowering of the croup, no smooth transition of piaffe into passage. I see alot of horses that looked forced into a piaffe.

Along with that, canter pirouettes used to be one full turn, now they do several turns, even tho it looks really awful and labored. What happened to the horse looking relaxed, retaining their spirit and expression?

Like all beautiful things, dressage has seemed to go the way of gaited show horses, and western peanut pushers.

This team has one of the most beautiful passage-piaffe transitions. Just wanted to throw this in http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5IKb5Cu2ok

Eagles, this is a great informative discussion here.

p.s. I hate snaffles. In good hands, any bit will work. But I love the curb, I find that my horses are much quicker to relax onto the bit, and the curb has built in design that actually shows the horse the way to flexion when push up into the bit.

[alicen]

[QUOTE=mbm;5046247]
yes, and now it seems that the business model of “trainer” is now considered immoral - imagine! charging $$ for someone to take time and effort to teach you (or your horse) something? the horror!

seriously, where do people come up with this stuff?[/QUOTE]

Seriously, and the model of a digital correspondence riding academy granting certifiable moments is just SOOO today.

[BaroquePony]

But I love the curb, I find that my horses are much quicker to relax onto the bit, and the curb has built in design that actually shows the horse the way to flexion when push up into the bit.

Well, based on that comment, you would really love the Spanish Spade Bit. Now there’s a bit that requires the horse to hold its head in the vertical position.

[ideayoda]

Snaffles and curbs have very different and specific uses in training horses. And even western people have a progression from hackamore to snaffle to curb. Nevertheless, if you (like eagles) want a really long shanked bit, longer than the saddle seat bits of long ago, then here is one for you with double length shanks–8" or more here you go. Look at almost at the bottom of the page and right above the saddles http://www.baroqueequitation.com/rassembler.htm#bit

[eagles]

Dear Princes… Thank you and you are so correct . Many people do not realize that the curb is a symetrical bit that lays even in the horss mouth and is not pulled from one side to the other quite the same way as a snaffle
The truth is most horses far prefer it .
Although it is hard to see it when reading thee threads the truth is their are more people who get this than is apparent . I can say this becaise of the private emails I am recieving and I will postjust one here now, minus anyones name .
The fact is these people are afraid to post on these forums lest they raise the Ire of the Goblins" as this writer refers to them as, that seem so intent on just throwing venom .
I also have come to realize that some people clearly show they prefer to be bullies and bullies are allways brave at a distance (no one comes here with any challanges or acusations where they can be shown with the horses otherwise ) and I think one can acertain from the tone , some decide to attack right of the bat. Which to me may also illustrate how they might treat their horses should they not obey their mighty rulers orders at once .
So anyway Here is the post , word for word and it is but a sampling of the same .

Hello their

I’m not totaly sure who you are but I do feel an immediate connection and recognition of your training method.

I honestly am baffled as to why people don’t get what your talking about .

I think maybe unless you’ve ridden it its hard to fathom what it feels like .

I ride modern slow (lovely ) warmbloods , I thank God everyday for my training with Col Carde and Charles de Kunnffy. otherwise I would have every pound of those horses in my hands and I would be crippled .

I am a profesional and I pride myself every single day I train , that I can train a light , soft “through” warmblood horse .

I don’t think people have ever felt the release of the back when you have proper flexion from the jowel (poll at the highest point ) and engagement of the hind quarters . It goes incrementally but it goes hand in hand .

I started training with the French system when I started dressage and thank God I did !!!

I really enjoy your offerings and I wish you luck with the Goblins on the chronicle Boards .

I never post their , I only read .

With Gratitude .

[ToN_Farm]

Eagles, I don’t think it’s right to post what someone PM’s or Emails to you, even without their name.

[ThreeFigs]

The more I see of Col. Sanders’ websites, the more sceptical I become of HIS qualifications.

I have no quarrel with people who claim to embrace the French School and/or Baucherism “exclusively”. I admire PK for his criticism of Gerd Heuschmann. I believe it was well deserved.

I have plenty of French school influences through trainers and clinicians I’ve worked with. It’s all good. You use what works – I am not slavishly devoted to just one theory about riding.

[princessfluffybritch]

[QUOTE=BaroquePony;5046640]
Well, based on that comment, you would really love the Spanish Spade Bit. Now there’s a bit that requires the horse to hold its head in the vertical position.[/QUOTE]

Actually, it’s not the bit-it’s the rider. If a curb is used to “hold it’s head in the vertical position”, or gain more control of an unruly horse, then the rider probably needs more time learning how to correctly use a bit. Spade bits, IMO, show that a rider needs a refresher course in proper riding.

[ThreeFigs]

Then PFB, you don’t understand the time and care that goes into making a spade bit horse.

Vaquero trainers take much time training and schooling in preparation for the spade.

From Bosal to snaffle w. Bosal. From there to curb with bosal. Only after lengthy training (it can take a couple of years or more…) is the spade bit used. The horse trained to carry a spade bit is extremely light and responsive. Vaquero has its roots in Spanish horsemanship.

Those guys know how to train a horse. It’s done slowly and carefully.

Spade bits are ONLY for expert horsemen, not for tyros who think it’s the fast track to collection, a head set or any of that stuff. Spade bits aren’t my cup of tea, but it’s the difference of opinion that makes horse races…