I like the “flexions first” theory. It teaches the horse how to respond to a bit prior to riding with clear communication, and how to relax the jaw without excessive pressure.
Also, I love the philosphy of a curb in nice soft hands because it takes me away from using the horse’s mouth as the sole method of communication-I would rather use a curb and not rely on a horse’s sensitive mouth -one has better options than that.
I will say I have no problem with the French school, Baroque, bits, snaffles, curbs or whatever school of training works for anyone with their horse.
I think instructors absolutely should be paid for their training. They should be paid if they watch your video and give you advice. They can sell all the stuff they think works for horses or whatever.
What I object to quite strongly, is someone posting on the board ostensibly to start a discussion when in reality they are promoting a web site that offers long distance certification as a riding instructor if people buy the offered products.
[QUOTE=Beasmom;5046887]
Then PFB, you don’t understand the time and care that goes into making a spade bit horse.
Vaquero trainers take much time training and schooling in preparation for the spade.
From Bosal to snaffle w. Bosal. From there to curb with bosal. Only after lengthy training (it can take a couple of years or more…) is the spade bit used. The horse trained to carry a spade bit is extremely light and responsive. Vaquero has its roots in Spanish horsemanship.
Those guys know how to train a horse. It’s done slowly and carefully.
Spade bits are ONLY for expert horsemen, not for tyros who think it’s the fast track to collection, a head set or any of that stuff. Spade bits aren’t my cup of tea, but it’s the difference of opinion that makes horse races…[/QUOTE]
Sorry, I misunderstood the point you were making. I agree with what you’re explaining to me. You’re right. Unfortunately there are those who don’t use a spade for the right reasons. My goal is lightening the aids as well. Leads to a relaxed expressive horse.
[QUOTE=mickeydoodle;5046918]
I will say I have no problem with the French school, Baroque, bits, snaffles, curbs or whatever school of training works for anyone with their horse.
I think instructors absolutely should be paid for their training. They should be paid if they watch your video and give you advice. They can sell all the stuff they think works for horses or whatever.
What I object to quite strongly, is someone posting on the board ostensibly to start a discussion when in reality they are promoting a web site that offers long distance certification as a riding instructor if people buy the offered products.[/QUOTE]
I took Eagles’s reference to websites to clarify his points. I’m glad he opened this thread-for those who are dressage enthusiasts who want to keep their training pure . His points give an alternative to train without using the current fads out there (rolkur, etc).
But I have to say that a mix of classical/modern methods work for me because those Baroque horses are built differently than mine, and modern horses need some variation because of it
[QUOTE=mickeydoodle;5046918]
I will say I have no problem with the French school, Baroque, bits, snaffles, curbs or whatever school of training works for anyone with their horse.
I think instructors absolutely should be paid for their training. They should be paid if they watch your video and give you advice. They can sell all the stuff they think works for horses or whatever.
What I object to quite strongly, is someone posting on the board ostensibly to start a discussion when in reality they are promoting a web site that offers long distance certification as a riding instructor if people buy the offered products.[/QUOTE]
but… people post ALL THE TIME to start discussions that are in their relm of interest. it happens DAILY.
people also have their websites in their sig line… for easy reference should a reader wish to click. i have many many times.
why is Eagles being singled out for something many many people do here every day? Even the Mods had no problem with what he is posting!
clearly it isn’t about how he is posting - it is about what he is posting.
@ToN Farm - I am guessing Eagles got permission to post that message. even if he didnt - i personally see no harm…
@Gallop: i am saddened that you went there.
I pulled out my book by Jean Caude Racinet, hard to believe I paid $29 for that little paper back!
My two cents, I’ll go with the german method. The flexions’ so talked about in the French or Racinet method, has the whole thing wrong. What’s wrong is
that everything starts with the back end of the horse, as in the german method, not with the stifling of the front by demanding submission of the mouth as in the Baucher method.
“The effet d’ensemble copied from wikepedia
Baucher wished to “annul the instinctive forces” of the horse. To do so, he gradually applied both driving and restraining aids at the same time, until he was using a great deal of spur and hand, his theory being that they should cancel each other out and the horse should stand still. The horse is not allowed to escape the aids, and finally realizes that he is dominated, submits, and is “tamed”. This technique was termed the effet d’ensemble.”
Guess that would explain why I’v never got any goosebumps of delight watching a Baucher method horse go. The free spirit of forward movement has rather than being cultivated and encouraged, has rather been tamed and domesticated. You never quite get a glimpse of the ‘wild’ horse within.
The ability of the rider to sit still and relax and not interfere with the horses movement, to learn to ‘go with the movement’, that is the foundation. When the rider learns to keep his body still, following the movement of the horse, then he can learn to keep his hands still, and then he can ask the horse to trust his hands, and then to reach forward to accept, and to take contact with the bit. Rather than ‘annul the instinctive forces of the horse’ dressage wants to cultivate, encourage the ‘instinctive FORWARD desire of the horse’.
I see the Baucher, the French method as antithema to that basic foundation of riding the horse from the back to the front.
If the rider concentrates on their own body, keeping still, going with the movement of the horse, keeping the hands still, then the horse can shine, he can relax and be himself, show his true movement, show what he’s capable of doing.
Blue Domino: i dont know much about french/baucher - but i never got the impression that they wanted to extinguish the forward of the horse!
the very very very basic flexions that i have done do the exact opposite of what you are saying they do. the flexions i have done create a horse that is soft in jaw/poll/neck/back since they are all connected. i dont have to ride the horse into a state of softness in the poll - they are before i eve get on.
also my very very very basic attemtps at balance before movement have worked wonders for certain horses.
so i cna say from my basic experimentation that i dont agree iwth your conclusions.
one caveat - i have never read baucher or any other french author. i have watched videos and real life people and i have just experimented with my own horses to see what does what.
eta: my take on flexions is that is an education for the horse to the meaning of the bit. it makes sense that the horse should understand what we want before we get on. and the horse get it right away! oh this feel means chew, this feel means come down in to the bit, etc etc
Spade ?
Well stated Beasmom.
I have had the honor of schooling with a well acknowledge Charro several years ago. Snaffle bit schooling is foundationally more for the rider than the horse. The ultimate goal for a true Charro is to never pick up the reins and to ride from the seat and legs. Oh my, is not that we are seeking in dressage.
As for the spade, my friend the
Charro refused to use the instrument because of the excessive pressures it would induce. He felt that the spade actually locked the horse in the poll and neck.
Once again thanks for the good post regarding the spade.
MBM you are correct.
WIKE is now the new bible on Baucher LOL . LOL and more LOL
The Flexions of Baucher were ALLWAYS to have the horse either go forward or have a forward attitude .
Jean Claude taught me that after each flexion the horse can be made to increase impulsion not hold it back . The combined effect needs to be studied to understand it more . It is about CALMING a horse in the position FIRST by the leg telling the horse to move forward and then , to add a slight upward turn of the outside hand to stop and rebalance the horse and make it hold that position in a calm way with soft outside actions and the use of the riders back , and fingers opening and closing like playing the harp . The horse can be brought to this between moves to rebalance and position so it learns how to carry itself , as needed . Soon they start to juist halt etc balanced .One can break donw moves piece by piece and stay inbalnace through each section before it is all put together as well .
If one understands the language of the spur ,it can be made as easily to calm a horse by its use as ask for some impulsion .
What we want to do is extinguish on the fore hand steam rollers past off as forward forward forward and bring the balance and the gaits back to sanity that are not cripling riders and horses .
Have to go now ,off to Wikie to see the truth about Aliens.
Let’s see. It’s either
bend’em and send’em
or
send’em and bend’em
As with most things horsey there is not just one holy sacred way to train a horse.
Follow whichever method you prefer and leave others to do the same.
[QUOTE=egontoast;5047090]
Let’s see. It’s either
bend’em and send’em
or
send’em and bend’em
As with most things horsey there is not just one holy sacred way to train a horse.
Follow whichever method you prefer and leave others to do the same.[/QUOTE]
I completely agree with this
And BWAHAHAHAHAAHH
I saw earlier in the thread where someone posted a grey horse doing ONE movement in his own back yard.
And THEN a video of Totilas was posted at a venue in competition in comparison with I dunno quite a few more movements than a piaffe in a hallway :lol:
Someone please tell me that was a joke lol
My own horse will piaffe at the entry gate even at home when coming into the arena if I he is energetic that day, I should post some of it and ask for some KLASICAL dressage money.
There is a reason that many of these gurus dont show their horses in extensions or tempis…
Remember that.
There are techniques of training that I really don’t like in both philosophies. I think I will just LISTEN to my horses, and choose the methods that allow me to communicate best with my horses, regardless of whether it’s classical or modern.
no pictures are posted of one of my Grey horses in my backyard in a doorway ??? Maybe I missed that post of someone else then ? Their is Piaffe and their is PIAFFE, like you see most of the time with the horses front legs jammed back towards its rear , aka on the balance of the riders bulging arms , horse broken at the third vertabrae and then their is the REAL Piaffe that was called by the venerated Masters 'The Air of the Haunches " because IF done with the correct balance the horse could sit in Levade at once. Not many of those to be seen in the ring could take a look .
Horses here go to a Piaffe on a soft click of the tounge, they dont need to be all worked up to offer it .Sounds like a Charo show .
I have a Bay horse in soft extension right on my gallery must be invisable or not recognized as it is not steam rolling and flipping up its front toe. .
Tempi changes , did you know were invented by BAUCHER Bwaaaaaaaaa. (Check Wiki)
no pictures are posted of one of my Grey horses in my backyard in a doorway ??? Maybe I missed that by post of someone else then ? Their is Piaffe and their is PIAFFE, like you see most of the time with the horses front legs jammed back towards its rear , aka on the blaance of the riders bulging arms , horse broen at the third vertabrae and then their is the REAL Piaffe that was called by the venerated Masters 'The Air of the Haunches " because IF done with the correct balance the horse could sit in Levade at once. Not many of those to be seen in the ring could take a look .
Horses here go to a Piafe on a soft click of the tounge, they dont need to be all worked up to offer it .Sounds like a Charo show .
I have a Bay horse in soft extension right on my gallery must be invisable or not recognized as it is not steam rolling and flipping up its front toe. .
Tempi changes , did you know were invented by BAUCHER Bwaaaaaaaaa. (Check Wiki)
Why not show tolerance for other well established and non abusive training methods.
It is too bad, considering todays vidio access, that so many proponents of the French school of lightness offer only fleeting and enigmatic glimpses of their riding. Racinet here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2bNpT5wajps
I’m sure this erudite site has been previoulsly linked, but Mikolka’s article on Baucher is thought provoking: Baucher’s Methods
Karl Mikolka
After reading in Dressage & CT the series of articles on Baucher written by Jean-Claude Racinet, I am still very confused about his methods. Particularly I do not understand the meaning of riding with ’ hands without legs’ and ’ legs without hands’.
Did Baucher mean that one should train a horse the entire time by using either hands only or legs only, or did he mean that at the moment the rider does something with the legs, he/she should not do anything with the hands and vice versa? What are the major differences of training methods between Baucher and de la Gueriniere? I believe that the system of de la Gueriniere is the one followed at the Spanische Hofreitschule. If I am correct, why is it so?
When François Baucher ( 1796-1873) published his controversial book: Methode d’Equitation basée sur de noveaux principes in 1842, he believed strongly that he had found a system which makes all horses supple and obedient in a much shorter time than any other system before him. A good friend of mine, who is himself a trainer, explains the newly discovered popularity of some of the Old Masters by saying: " The longer they are dead the better they seem to be in the eyes of the general public." I must admit that my friend is right. What do we really know about the skill and equestrian ability of the equerries of long gone times? We can only trace their styles and methods through a few books which were published during their life time, or we can listen to the few eyewitnesses who happen to be around to see the masters in action. It is furthermore possible to form quite an accurate picture by listening to the pupils the masters left behind and by assessing the horses those masters made. We are therefore able to compile a few points of reference for evaluating their true horsemanship by what they handed down to the present generation of riders and trainers. François Robichon de la Gueriniere (1688-1751) stresses in his book Ecole de Cavalerie the importance of using sound principles in the education of the horse which must serve to perfect nature with the aid of the art. His guidelines from
the early stages of training to the airs above the ground were based on a deep love for horses and a thorough understanding of the natural development of the horse into becoming man’s best friend and most reliable partner. The development of quality gaits through suppleness and obedience was one of his main concerns. It was always a hallmark of the Classical Trainers to believe in the application of training methods according to the horses needs. With emphasis on ‘the thinking horse and the thinking rider’, they sought to avoid confrontation and resistance as much as possible and never forced their method as a doctrine or ‘straight jacket’ upon their horses, That is why Gueriniere’s methods have
survived the test of time and were adopted, cherished and cultivated at the Spanish Riding School for centuries up to the present.
François Baucher went through two stages in his life, the younger more aggressive, innovative years and the more matured time following his serious accident in the circus. In his nouvelle Méthode, Monsieur Baucher introduces the technique l’effet d’ensemble: a simultaneous use of hands and legs to eliminate the horse’s intrinsic strength and to replace it with the transmitted strength that comes from the rider in order to achieve balance and suppleness. In his deuxième manière Baucher speaks of ’ hand without legs, legs without hand’ implying the use of only one aid at a time. Some say this change of technique was the result of injuries sustained in the accident while others see it as an improvement of the nouvelle Méthode. But whatever it may be, modern dressage enthusiasts should not forget that Baucher’s methods were never approved of, not even in his life time, as being acceptable and valuable guidelines for the training of the Dressage Horse. Baucher’s method was rejected by many of his contemporaries, most of them highly regarded horsemen or equerries such as Count Antoine Cartier D’Aure, P.A. Aubert, M. Thirion and the Duc de Nemours, to name only a few.
Hilda Nelson’s excellent book: Francois Baucher, The Man and His Method is an impressive testimony to the myth and controversy to which Baucher contributed during his life. Here are just a few examples of what these men had to say about their much controverted contemporary:
Aubert remarks in his observations : ’ … the posture of Monsieur Baucher violates the laws of gravity and balance.’ ‘Baucher’s philosophy to overcome the forces and resistance of a horse by other forces must lead to failure. All horsemen agree that to combat force with force is the worst thing one can do…’ Aubert condemns the constant attacks with the spurs on the flanks of the horse and refers to a horse which has been subjected to Baucher’s nouvelle méthode as an ‘ambulatory cadaver.’ D’Aure describes the gaits of the horses schooled in the new method by saying: “….broken in their paces, uncertain in their movements, nothing is left of the paces of a horse…” M. Thirion, equerry at the Manege de Luxembourg felt that… ‘Baucher’s method is so full of errors and contradictions that it is not worth the effort of refuting it…’ In 1852 the famous and most esteemed German Riding Master, Louis Seeger -himself a student of Weyrother, published his little known book with the title: Herr Baucher und seine Künste. Ein ernstes Wort an Deutschlands Reiter: “Mr. Baucher and His Arts, a Serious Word to Germany’s Riders.” Baucher, who rode in the circus owned by M. Dejean, invited Seeger to come and observe his work and ride his horses. After having this unique experience, Louis Seeger decided to make his impressions about Baucher’s method public …“in the best interest for future generations of horses and riders” as he quotes it.
The first thing Seeger noticed when riding Baucher’s horses was the ‘total absence of energy in all gaits, especially in the trot which was the weakest gait.’ Unpleasant to sit and dead on the rider’s legs, the horses moved flat and on the forehand, hind legs dragging without ever taking a steady contact on the reins. With tails swishing and incapable of bending their hind legs, the horses produced a stiff picture in the canter especially in the changements de pied a chaque foulée-( changes a tempo- an invention of Mr. Baucher).
Mr. Seeger complained that all horses he rode were heavy on the forehand, moved with stiff hind legs and could not be collected. Collected canter was non-existing and the canter strides resembled more a ‘hopping rather than a jumping motion.’ The piaffe was executed with stiff hind legs and the horses stepped sideways and even backwards with little action in front but quite a high action behind while carrying most of the weight on the forehand. The passage lacked springiness and elasticity and Baucher was compelled to use quite visible leg, spur and whip aids to keep the horse going, contrary to the classical way of riding the passage in which the rider sits still and steady while the horse gives the impression of moving with great energy, cadence and flexible joints all on its own. The pirouettes were impossible to ride and the horses had the tendency to throw themselves around instead of turning gracefully.
Anyone familiar with Dressage and the requirements in FEI competitions must admit that Mr. Seeger’s analysis of Baucher’s methods and the judgement of his horses is not at all in agreement with modern FEI rules. I believe that Seeger, who had the on-hand opportunity to ride Baucher’s horses and to study his system, deserves to be more respected for his objective explanation of his experiences. Perhaps the modern prophets who persist in glorifying a system which failed already 140 years ago might consider the contemporary assessments of Baucher’s methods more seriously. Of course, those wishing to follow Baucher are certainly free to do so but should not expect great success in the dressage arena.
As far as I am concerned I must agree with the Duc de Nemours who said: “Je ne veux pas d’un systeme qui prend sur l’impulsion des cheveaux.” (I do not want a system which takes away the impulsion of horses.) 1. Do you?
Karl Mikolka
© Karl Mikolka 1997 http://www.angelfire.com/sports/dressage/pages/Karl.html
From the website:
I suspect what Karl writes is true, and Baucher wasn’t ‘all that’. However, just think about what some of today’s classicists would write about the way Anky trains, and it might sound just as critical as Seeger’s did of Baucher.
You are right Alicen, that there isn’t much video or many photos of Racinet and those following the Baucher lightness technique. What few there are, aren’t good imo. In their defense, I have to say that some of the horses they have to ride at the clinics are not very talented. Still, when I look at the portfolio of still shots of Racinet riding his own horse, not even one looks good to me. It could be the horse’s conformation, but the hind end doesn’t look connected to the front end at all, and his equitation looks sloppy as well.
re Alicen’s post:
The thing I’ve never understood about Baucher/Racinet/Nuno O. classical is that the written words don’t seem to match the performance.
I read "flexions, soft hands, riding from behind " etc, and on videos I see overcollected horses , stiff gaits, and horses ridden all the way around a ring in a renvers or travers, not looking happy, no spirit or expression. That’s a far cry from all those words in their books.
I am not anti-classical, I do pick and choose methods from both camps.
The other thing is why do the horses trained by Alois Podhajsky’s “classical” methods appear much more correct or perhaps better?
[QUOTE=eagles;5047211]
no pictures are posted of one of my Grey horses in my backyard in a doorway ??? [/QUOTE]
Correct. This was in reference to the video. We don’t have a video of your riding.
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