Can’t remember what it means, What is “schprung”?(sp?)
Col. Podhajsky
Anyone remember a 1963 film called,
'Miracle of the White Stallions"?
In the film, except for the closeups showing Robert Taylor riding, Col. Podhajsky was the lead rider in the film and the head of the SRS.
From the film please watch and enjoy the art of classical dressage…and not from Baucher’s schooling methods.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-xYSsLC30w
at about 3:07 of this clip watch a “beautiful canter pirouette” that is not seen in the competitive dressage arena
Man, did you read the same post as I did from the OP? Apparently not!
He is talking about a method and school that is NOT commonly discussed on this board (which is mostly German/Dutch ) and he is able to be specific on the background, goals, steps that accounts for the difference in methods.
I don’t see any “fairy dust,” or pretense that he has made up this method himself. He clearly states he studied under Racinet.
Sometimes I truly forget what uncontrolled nastiness can go on on this board.
He does not like what he sees in the current competitive dressage ring. Nor do I most of the time. Yet I am curious as to how you get a horse different – with the degree of lightness that is NEVER seen in the FEI dressage ring.
Not everyone wants to ride this way, and someone who points the way of a different method; one that is tried and true (although perhaps not currently popular with many competitive dressage riders) is automatically attacked.
Can someone be a good rider if they haven’t won a Gold Medal? Think this might be possible? Even a good trainer.
My thought is that if you don’t embrace this sort of dressage, then go elsewhere. Don’t start a fight just to do it. That’s just rude.
The French school is valid, but different. I welcome the opportunity to explore it, but I really had to wade through a bunch of adverseral horse manture to get there.
ANY horse “collects” naturally. Eagle is right when he says they do this almost from the moment of birth.
So why is it so difficult to believe that you can ask for (and get) afew steps of collection, with the horse unmounted (and therefore not bearing weight) in the first few months of training?
I don’t see this as impossible at all. The OP is not saying the horse is performing 100% of the time u/s in collection.
But if my 3 month old foals are collecting, piaffing & passaging several times a day in play, they ARE working those muscles now, today!
It doesn’t sound farfetched to me at all.
Kyzteke states:
I don’t see any “fairy dust,” or pretense that he has made up this method himself. He clearly states he studied under Racinet.
Just because he states he studied under Racinet it does make him a learned student. Baucher’s methods have never been accepted by mainstream dressage riders and trainers because they are against the horse.
He does not like what he sees in the current competitive dressage ring. Nor do I most of the time. Yet I am curious as to how you get a horse different – with the degree of lightness that is NEVER seen in the FEI dressage ring.
See my previous video links of SRS under Col. Podhajsky and which was seen in the competitive arena at the time…40 years as passed and correct dressage schooling has passed also…because of bad judging and riding
one that is tried and true (although perhaps not currently popular with many competitive dressage riders) is automatically attacked.
Baucher’s methods are NOT tried and TRUE…they are from it and rolkur is a direct result. No one is attacking rather pointing out flaws.
Can someone be a good rider if they haven’t won a Gold Medal? Think this might be possible? Even a good trainer.
I choose not to be good rider, I choose to be a horseman…seeking to obtain what Col. Podhajsky did., not what Baucher did not achieve.
I choose not to be good rider/
Um Ok. How does your horse feel about that?
Can’t remember what it means, What is “schprung”?(sp?)
Not sure but i think it involves tequila and trampolines.
[QUOTE=Kyzteke;5047382]
ANY horse “collects” naturally. Eagle is right when he says they do this almost from the moment of birth.
So why is it so difficult to believe that you can ask for (and get) afew steps of collection, with the horse unmounted (and therefore not bearing weight) in the first few months of training?
I don’t see this as impossible at all. The OP is not saying the horse is performing 100% of the time u/s in collection.
But if my 3 month old foals are collecting, piaffing & passaging several times a day in play, they ARE working those muscles now, today!
It doesn’t sound farfetched to me at all.[/QUOTE]
Agreed. But can we ever see these horses MOVE? Sorry. Can someone please show me something other than snippets of a Baucher/Racinet French- schooled- in -lightness-horse do anything other than mince about in a confined space? I don’t give a hoot about competition. I’m sure the best ever riding happens at the barn or the warm up ring. But, please, can anyone of the French school please provide me with a video of a happily forward moving horse?
egontoast states: “Um Ok. How does your horse feel about that?”
Take apart what someone says rather than use the whole…that is truly taking something out of context.
I do not desire to be simply a rider, for a monkey can ride a horse, I choose to be a horseman, as I presume most of us would choose.
What encompasses the differences between rider and horseman is the difference between demand and allow. The rider when demanding does not let the horse nor him/her self to be responsive, instead they both are reactive. On the other hand, a horseman will allow, through the extreme sympathetic responsive patience of the rider, the horse to be sympathetically responsive to the requests of she or he.
The rider/trainer who is a horseman will not take up the reins in such a manner as to apply pounds of pressure to the bit, but will instead use the fingers ounces of pressure to every so softly shake the bit instead of pull on it. Such a horseman will also ‘allow’ the horse not to take the bit in the jaws, teeth or tongue…allowing in this instance means that the horseman will not let the horse have bit control through the horseman’s sympathetic responsive actions rather than the demanding reactions of applied force.
This does not mean the horseman will never take hold of the horse with pressure, what it means is that the horseman uses the alternating rein shaking method first and then if necessary, applies the alternating rein shaking with a soft/supple hold and then quick release method.
A horseman seeks to allow the horse self carriage and thorough engagement of its muscle structure without constraints.
[QUOTE=princessfluffybritches;5047309]
Can’t remember what it means, What is “schprung”?(sp?)[/QUOTE]
Perhaps you’re thinking of schwung? http://www.dict.cc/german-english/Schwung.html
I think I prefer egon’s definition.
Nice word, nice feeling. And, yeah, a word that doesn’t spring to mind (sorry, pun not intended) when I think of Baucher/Racinet.
[QUOTE=Marcella;5045751]
I find this thread very interesting. A little while back I posted about problems going from a double bridle (I had been riding in a pelham, but the horse had been ridden in a double at one point) to a snaffle so I could show in lower level dressage. My problem was I couldn’t stop him in the snaffle because he pulled and pulled and fought me. All of the replies I received on the thread were that I had horrible hands and needed to train myself to be a better rider.
I started working with a connected riding instructor, and a dressage trainer. I’m riding him in a double bridlewith no issues at all. The snaffle simply wouldn’t work with him. Of course I had and still have improvements to make to my riding, but I find this training method interesting to read about because it seems to be a bit of what I was going through with my horse. He is beyond soft if the double bridle, and with his poll up higher, he has almost stopped coughing (he would cough and cough as soon as he got ‘on the bit’ with the snaffle). Now he just clears his throat a little when we warm up, but isn’t wheezing and coughing throughout the ride.
Interestingly enough, my boy received his dressage instruction from a French trainer. My horse is so much happier in the double bridle.[/QUOTE]
Very interesting, one of my horses coughs a lot when first ridden. He has a tendency to lower and tuck his head if not kept really forward.
[QUOTE=alicen;5047470]
Perhaps your thinking of schwung? http://www.dict.cc/german-english/Schwung.html
I think I prefer egon’s definition.
Nice word, nice feeling. And, yeah, a word that doesn’t spring to mind (sorry, pun not intended) when I think of Baucher/Racinet.[/QUOTE]
well, no it wouldnt. Schwung is a german word.
i dont know many French influenced riders, but the ones i do know ride forward, but not to get the horse balanced. <shrug>
i guess i dont understand this need to compare french riding to german? they are different.
and that comparison is like saying someones jazz sucks because it doesn’t sound like a show tune…
i also find it strange that folks hate the french method so much! yet most seem to know nothing about it?
i guess i dont understand this need to compare french riding to german?
Isn’t that what you are doing?:lol:
[I]what the germans want and clearly what the french want is different.
and truthfully i am liking the french way more and more as time goes on. [/I]
often in the snaffle ,when the nose is pulled back in, nerve sensors called stretch receptors come into play. As the rider exerts the continous pressure and backward traction with both hands equaly it stretches the muscles that overpas the pole joint . Feeling this equal stretch on both sides of the horses midline , the receptors tell the brain to resist the riders efforts by CAUSING those muscles to contract . The rider looking for "on the bit " has now set up the perfect storm for resistance. Now, because maintaining this posture compreses the neck it also COMPRESES THE UPPER AIRWAY . Such horses will labor ,cough , breath loudly (roaring ) etc etc etc. Often when they go to the double their is no such pulling , the neck relaxes and the breathing improves . See it all the time .
eagles - not to be provocative and this is an honest question…
do you not look for and teach the horse to seek the bit? not pulling, but an active looking for the bit?
if not, how do you get the horse to activate its topline muscles (aka bridge)?
or do you not think in those terms?
[QUOTE=mbm;5047569]
well, no it wouldnt. Schwung is a german word.
i guess i dont understand this need to compare french riding to german? they are different.
and that comparison is like saying someones jazz sucks because it doesn’t sound like a show tune…
i also find it strange that folks hate the french method so much! yet most seem to know nothing about it?[/QUOTE]
Schwung is a German word that represents a concept.
Hey, I like jazz. And I don’t believe I said anything about hating the French method. But I’m still waiting for some videos.
The “fairy dust” is the page on the website that says you can be a certified instructor in his “academy” if you buy all his stuff and answer written questions on a test based on his stuff, and pay for the test. You do not even have to ride.
You can even participate in a show by sending in videos, and win prizes. Hell, you can probably become a national champion in his system this way. Fairy Dust.
There are two topics going on in this thread. One is Baucher training and the other is the OP’s website and the fairy dust thing. Can we please drop the latter and just discuss riding.
Someone earlier asked if there are any videos of French riders doing other than mincing around in a small arena. I think this one of Catherine Henriquet shows a lot of schwung:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPUNsC5RNmA&feature=player_embedded
Antonym of Schwung: Mincing :lol:
Regarding the negative physical effect of the snaffle when pulling backwards, wouldn’t the double have even a more severe effect if the riding hauls back on the curb? I guess I’m missing how a double bridle or curb only could ever be more comfy for the horse.
[QUOTE=ToN Farm;5047784]
There are two topics going on in this thread. One is Baucher training and the other is the OP’s website and the fairy dust thing. Can we please drop the latter and just discuss riding. [/QUOTE]
The fairy dust people are now in my ignore list. The ignore list is your friend. I now have an uncluttered educational thread to read.
This is a great thread and it has sent me out to find more information on something I knew nothing about until this thread. I don’t need to agree with any method to become more educated about it…and then I can make my own opinion!
I want to offer my two cents to the discussion if I may.
Sometimes the German way doesn’t work. It’s not rider/trainer error, it doesn’t mean the horse is trash, it doesn’t mean the horse is lame.
At one point I was told by members of this board to “give up” on ever getting my horse to flex at the poll and work through his back because I had been trying for 10 (&$#* years. It wasn’t until I took off the rose colored glasses and started thinking of my horse as a student and partner, started thinking of other ways to communicate what I wanted; even if it meant going against the German structure I had been fed since I was potty trained.
What worked for my horse was the inkling of French training. Most everything Master Sanders has said here I’ve been reading my screen and nodding. :yes: I don’t fully understand why the curb is considered better than the snaffle, but I’m sure with time and more reading I’ll gain more of that understanding. I may discover that while much of what he said stikes a resonating chord with my horse and I that the bit may be an exception; who knows.
Not every person can learn the same way, not every person can believe the same religion, because we are all individuals with unique conscious minds that interpret and articulate information differently. Why is it such a far stretch for some to believe that some horses learn better this way?
While my horse is only doing training level work right now, I am more than willing to PM photos to people interested in seeing a horse in correct form that was not trained German.
Its not the same with a curb becuse you simply can not get away wth that amount of force without putting the horse over backwards or having its nose on its chest , A snaffle allows a brace against the bars the curb chain does not make the horse feel lit can lean on it anywhere near the same , number one . Number two when a horse stops pulling most riders tend stop the tug of war ,not needing it any longer and that perfect storm ceases . Horses simply stop pulling one way and brace up and the tug of war is on in the other .
On another note riding in a small arena was allways done in times past to prepare the horse for battle not eaons of rail . it takes more timing and reflexes . Riders who come here are shocked at the small size I put them in (even though I also have a large arena) and at first can’t react well enough in the least . Then as they go along ,it is funny they all say the arena gets larger and larger to them . Its just another way again , Im just explaining why we at least do it for training. Try flying changes down a 50 foot side for instance . Most new riders are not even in the postion and the rail is gone until they relax and start allowing their bodies to flow with the horse .Just position and then action and it happens
.Catherine Durrand for me , even though she can be a nice rider , has adopted the German school a lot for her competition ( to be fair , to win with their rules and judges you allmost have to ) and when her and Michel were teaching in the ring at the same time a few years back he would be furious at some of the things she would tell the students to do , right their in the lesson. People used to talk about that all the time and it is even on the internet in some post about a student who went their for lessons and wrote about each day . . To me you can see a big differance in what he did at his school in the early days and then later after she got more involved in competition the program changed .
His early riding and writing were good for me and I recomend my students to get his Henriquet on Dressage book on the required list of reading I give out and even print in my book . .
