Been through a lot with my horse, but wondering if it’s time to part ways. WWYD?

One thing that has really helped with the situation with my horse has been to do some brutally honest journaling about every time I go to the barn.

I wrote down what happened, what we did, what emotions I had (good and bad), any signs of tension or relaxation in my horse, I wrote down how that day effected my long term plans. Reading back on them I saw the picture of a horse that had good stretches but always cycled back to unhappy, and in pain, who almost constantly had what I call carousel horse face (the tension above the eye, tight jaw, and a hyperawareness of everything around him), and I kept going back to the gut feeling that something wasn’t right. Reflecting on my notes about myself I saw how often I was making excuses for his behavior and how often I was letting my idealized dreams (he’s so fancy, talented horses are just high strung, I won’t find another in my budget) override the horsemanship I wanted myself to practice.

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I’m going to gently leave this article right here:

Dangerous Behavior and Intractable Axial Skeletal Pain in Performance Horses

I’m sorry you are in this difficult place but it is not a rarity in the horse world. It’s just not something a lot of people talk about in the open since it’s always a difficult situation for all involved.

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Far as never hearing of euthanizing a horse for behavioral reasons, you are fairly new to the sport. While nobody goes around bringing it up in idle conversation, it’s not that rare, you just haven’t been around long enough to be aware of it, aware of other conditions that may have contributed to the behavior or aware it may have been the best available choice for that horse.

It could very well be she is reacting from pain without any other outward symptoms. Know you say you have had the vet but it may take a complete physical with bloodwork and extensive imaging to pin point a cause and still find nothing. Plus that kind of physical can run 2k or higher.

I see no reason horses would not experience the equine version of “ mental illness”, chemical imbalance effecting brain function and know they can get brain tumors that cause erratic behavior…discovered during necropsy.

Some things we can’t fix. Understand that she does not feel about you as you do about her and cannot reciprocate equally. If you catch her at the wrong moment, she’ll go after you as she will any stall cleaner, feeder or casual barn visitor. And you will be paying their medical bills.

Besides her misery with whatever demons she faces, how about you? How long do you want to make excuses, worry about her actions towards barn workers and take special precautions? Could you take a vacation leaving her in the hands of others for a few weeks? Takes the joy out of horse ownership…imagine the joy it takes out of her life.

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I have to add my voice to those recommending euthanasia.
I have a close friend who has 4 horses at home. Her 4yo Haflinger, and two boarders - an elderly pony and a small teenage cob, were sharing a paddock with a shelter. All are very well mannered horses, no one is over 15 hands.
Her husband went the check on her when she didn’t return from feeding one day. He found her in the paddock with a fractured skull, and many hematomas. Thankfully she survived but she had a 3 month hospital stay (induced coma for three weeks, and multiple surgeries), and 6 weeks of rehab. I am happy to say she is doing great, with no real deficits, but it was touch and go for a while. She has no memory of what happened.
I tell you this to make the point that even well trained, easily handled horses can cause significant injury. Dealing with one that is know to be sometimes dangerous is just not worth the risk.
I agree that it is very likely your horse is in pain, even if the vet didn’t find anything.

Curious if your horse shows any of these signs when under saddle?

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You may find these articles helpful:

https://www.chronofhorse.com/article/have-empathy-in-the-face-of-the-hardest-choice/?fbclid=IwAR0UtqEwrw2KkYpSvMVOXpyRt33QJVDHU00vNk3kwuKfq6oEOxx8xuu7894

Lauren is a very experienced and capable professional, and even she struggled with feeling like she was failing the horse, and if she could only do better by him then a solution would appear. She also writes about how isolated she felt since this isn’t something people talk about openly. Even top-level riders feel what you’re feeling, you are definitely not alone.

Do you really know what “feels safe” and “certain environment” mean for this horse? Until you can predictably define her comfort zone it’s not realistic to expect you or the professionals around you to successfully keep her under threshold or make progress expanding it. From what you’ve written it sounds like her comfort zone is a moving target, which supports the theory that she’s in pain or neurological, or both.

I think you’re right to want to take some space and see if you can get some perspective to make this decision. I feel for you, I really do, but your posts read like the girl who won’t break up with her abusive boyfriend because when things are going well he’s a really nice guy. No amount of good moments make up for the fact that this horse is almost certainly going to seriously injure you at some point.

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Yes, but…

… do you want to have a horse that must be kept in specific circumstances that may not be what you want to do, or may be something you can’t do? (You’re there now with the boarding dilemma.)

I worked with mine. I had some really super times with him. But it could be like flicking a light switch sometimes. Or maybe a crapshoot would be a better analogy.

I had a horse, before the one I posted about earlier, who was very spooky. He improved but still had randomly spooky episodes. Years into ownership we discovered he had a fixed bone chip in his hock. He was more spooky on days his hock was painful. He’d had that chip when I bought him, eight years before we found it.

That was an obvious issue that would have been found easily if I’d ever had reason to do a lameness workup. My neurologic horse not so much. Even when we did x-rays and sent them to the experts, we got back wildly opposing opinions. Some things cannot be definitely diagnosed in a living horse. Some things can’t be definitely diagnosed even after death. Neurological issues are often defined by best guess after excluding things they aren’t - usually involving numerous, expensive tests. If you haven’t been exposed to neurological issues, you are unlikely to recognize them. So many symptoms could be due to something else.

Obscure pain can be like that too. I read about a horse who became dangerous, and skeletal examination after death found deformed bones in the lumbosacral part of the spine that affected how the horse moved. Trying to make the horse use themselves correctly caused a great deal of pain and suffering.

We see the redemption stories on social media. At one point you could have created one yourself. Maybe you could get to that point again in the future. We don’t see those who try and fail. Or those who succeed, post their triumph, and have a catastrophic failure later with that same horse.

The thing that everyone (vets, caregivers, saddle fitters, etc) said about my neuro horse after I euthanized was “I learned so much from him.” If you believe in such things, that was his purpose - to teach me and others. The first horse teaches us more than we could have imagined before we got them. One of those things is when to let go.

Your mare has taught you more than most first horses. You can sometimes break through resistance and forge a bond. And that bond doesn’t solve all the problems.

Only you know all the information about the situation. Only you can set your feelings and defensive responses aside and truly assess the situation. Only you can look at everything you do and see how much you’re actually doing to keep her from getting upset. Only you can decide how much you’re willing to do to keep her and everyone around her safe.

There’s no need to decide now. You can take some months and really try to dispassionately observe everything, and assess things. If you resist the knee jerk defense reactions you’re feeling when you read these posts.

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I will DM video to anyone who is interested. I know it sounds like I am in denial—maybe I am—but I just don’t feel like things are this bad. My horse absolutely can get unmanageable with bad handling, and maybe her definition of bad handling is different from other horses’. But I don’t feel like this reaction is warranted. Maybe it 100% is, but I would feel more open to agreeing if someone saw video of her and still felt that way.

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Well, you have had one trainer ask you to leave her barn and that rehabber send her back because of behavior and IIRC farrier and vet who had a bad time with her. They know her and you better then we do.

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You say she’s dangerous to the point where, in the past, you have not felt safe in the field with her.

You have had multiple professionals say she’s a bad actor, and dangerous, and refuse to work with her.

She’s been so ill behaved for the vet (and the farrier?) that they’ve been unable to complete the appointment.

I’m really sorry, and I know this is very hard. I know you’ve said you don’t really have a frame of reference, because this is the first horse you’ve owned.

But none of this is okay. None of it is normal. This is all really, really, really outside the scope of okay.

This is a dangerous horse–which you know, that’s how you’ve described her, and how others with more experience have described her–and there is really no place out there for dangerous horses.

And when you consider that she’s very likely this way because she’s in pain…why would you want to keep her going? Consider her reactions that you’ve seen, that have scared you. View those through the lens of “this horse is behaving like this because she hurts, and this is her response to that pain.” Spend some time with that, and consider if you really want to prolong her life if it’s that bad for her.

Again, I’m sorry. I know this is very difficult. But a kind end is a kindness. A good death is a good thing. Our society often positions euthanasia as a failure, and it is not. Continuing to put yourself and others in danger is the failure here, truly.

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The OP has also written that she has been good for the farrier and vet since earlier in her ownership.

I’m not saying it’s a good idea to keep this mare mind you. I don’t know what I would do in the OPs position.

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Going back to my previous question, can you define bad handling for your mare? Can you predict what’s going to set her off on any given day, and are you confident enough in your assessment to bet your safety and that of others on it? Video isn’t really going to add anything here - it’s not about her behavior at any single points in time but about the pattern of unpredictable and dangerous behavior over time.

Good handling is good handling. What’s common with inexperienced and/or ammy owners is to slowly back away expectations and let the horse dictate the terms of their behavior. It feels like progress because there’s less conflict and you avoid meltdowns, but it just develops bad habits for both of you and sets the horse up for a bigger reaction the next time someone else asks them for something in a way that doesn’t meet their very specific standard. As an ammy owner myself I’m totally guilty of this sometimes, but my horse doesn’t become dangerous when I correct myself and start adding pressure back in. A horse that needs to be handled with kid gloves to the degree that she breaks down in competent professional programs and is only happy when handled by a single person in a very specific environment is not a horse that’s suited for domestic life and is one that’s probably in pain or at least pretty unhappy most of the time anyway.

If you want to keep trying with her a comprehensive vet workup should be your next step. Letting this horse out of your care isn’t a viable option for all the reasons that have been given on the thread so far, so it’s pretty much continue working with her and try to find what’s causing her issues, retire her and manage her care yourself, or euthanize her. It’s a really unfortunate situation, you have so much sympathy from me.

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In regards to this, I have followed an (I think) Australian trainer whose name completely escapes me that had necropsies done on some similarly challenging horses. They had been thoroughly vetted, but veterinary imaging and diagnostic have their limitations. It wasn’t until necropsy that issues were uncovered that explained transient lamenesses, and often explosive reactivity.

Denali Equine on Facebook has some eye-opening perspectives on the topic as well.

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I’m going to leave the rest of this discussion alone, because I think you’ve gotten good advice. But I’ll speak to rescue. I train for a rescue, and we work with many other rescues in training partnerships. We are full. They are full. No one goes around looking for horses that are paid for and cared for. Nonrideable horses are extremely hard to adopt out, and most of the people in the market for rideable ones are very basic amateurs. For us to adopt out a horse as a riding horse, it has to be vice free and very simple. For us to adopt out a horse as a pet/companion, it has to be safe to handle. The ones that are not are not getting adopted. They will continue to drain rescue dollars from the very short supply. No one wants to take them on, everyone has enough of them that they hoped would be adoptable but for whatever reason aren’t.
So, my advice is, if you are considering this, have a look at this woman’s program. Check the financials, make sure it’s actually a non-profit. Ask what happens to the ones that don’t get adopted. Ask what the return policy is. If you are comfortable with the answers, or comfortable giving the horse away to a horse flipper to see if she can turn it around and get it sold, that’s fine. But be honest with yourself and know the facts. Horses that have poor behavior due to poor handling usually end right back up with people who handle poorly, and the behavior comes right back. Then the next person will dump it at auction, put it down, or it will end up draining funds off another rescue because no one will be responsible for it.

These people get paid to train horses. They aren’t out looking to take on yours, or adopt it.

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OP, I feel for you in the current situation. I had one years ago that had a bunch of excessive reactions to a wide range of circumstances; I tried for 12 months to work things out, my (older) trainer wouldn’t ride him. My fearless younger friend said he scared her. My solution was to send him back to seller; he was resold to her working student and then who knows. A couple years later I heard from the owner of my horse’s sire that there were stories that my horse had been overfaced to the point of abuse trying to make him a jumper. That explained a lot.
But also, there is something you should also think about: moving the horse to a new location is stressful on the horse. Not being handled by the same person ex a couple times/month will be stressful. Whatever safe things she has will not be there. And if you get a farm, move her home, that cycle of stress will happen again. Many horses can go through these situations w/out a care in the world, but they are generally happy, healthy horses with no baggage.

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I’m happy to watch any videos you want to share privately. However, please remember that the advice shared on here is the collective wisdom of hundreds of years of horse experience and has included very thoughtful responses from people who are deeply respected trainers and riders within their discipline.

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I actually shared the link to this here (or something just like what you’re describing, I bet there are a few of them out there?) and have been trying to figure out which thread that was in to post here. It’s SUCH a good example, and so sobering. I wish I could turn it up again!

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Presumably you saw other horses in programs under the trainers you boarded with. Were they good citizens? One professional telling you something could be a badly educated, self proclaimed trainer. When you start hearing the same thing from multiple professionals, it’s probably the horse with the problem.

That’s what you’re hearing here. When that many people, in real life, tell you the horse is dangerous to the point they refuse to work on the horse, that horse’s behaviour is not normal.

You have no baseline for normal yet. So we’re telling you.

It’s easy to make little adjustments, little management changes, little limits, without realizing until someone says “That’s not normal.” A friend said it to me after my horse bucked from one end of the ring to the other, then continued bucking back to the front of the ring after I came off. She was right, and I needed. to hear it.

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OP - please don’t take the following as criticism as I don’t mean it that way - just an observation.
Thru a fairly large number of consistent comments/feedback, you have pretty consistently tried to counter those opinions with “yes, but” responses.
Often posters come here with essentially the same thread title, looking for support or validation of a decision that they have pretty much already made. To help them get through part of the emotional side of their decision.
This will always be a discussion between the emotional you and the realistic, rational you. IMO you are still in the place where the emotional you is driving the bus; that’s not a bad thing, it just what happens. I think you are still really hoping that some solution to the horse’s problems will appear from your big question. Its understandable for sure.
I think you need to take all this input and digest it for a bit. I like the idea suggested earlier of journaling. That may help you in a number of ways. In the end it always has to be your decision and sometimes that’s a lonely, hard place to be.
I truly feel for you especially this early in your horse ownership career.

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I actually did come here with an open mind, because I didn’t have a specific outcome I was leaning toward. My only goal was to try to explain, as succinctly but as transparently as possible, my experience with my horse over the past 3 years, and to get feedback about it from more experienced owners. I certainly wasn’t expecting the pile on about euthanizing her. And look, you can call me obstinate or delusional or ungrateful for the advice, but I still think it strains credulity that a whole forum of people would draw one conclusion about her and the best course of action for her, when not ONE vet or horse pro or bystander who knows her in real life has ever suggested she might be neurological or recommended euthanasia. I have had two different vets screen her for neurological symptoms. One even told me to stop bothering with a vitamin E supplement because there was no reason to think she was neurological. Also, she was bred in North America so doesn’t have the same risk for EPM as a European import. As for pain and the pain ethology report, yes, I saw that video when it first came out, I even saw the Australian necropsy video mentioned up-thread. I always read about these things and wonder, could this be my horse? Could this be my horse’s problem? Like anyone, I am always looking for some pat explanation. And all I can tell you is that my gut feeling is no, it isn’t. She doesn’t strike me as a horse in pain. Her body worker has told me she doesn’t respond to stretches or manipulations the way you would expect from a horse in pain. She went on a month-long trial of riboxin and it had no impact on her behavior, any more than the regumate, or the turmeric, or the mare magic, the magnesium, the doxy for Lyme, or the course of ulcerguard. None of that did a thing for her. The biggest and most radical transformation I saw in her behavior was when I moved her to someone’s backyard and did all her care myself. Someone asked me if I reliably knew her triggers and the gods honest truth is that yes, I would say I do. She likes routine and structure. She does not like change. She likes fair, consistent handling, even if it’s harsh as long as it’s clear. She does not like wishy washiness. If I had to pinpoint the issue at my current barn, it’s that they do not feed or throw hay at consistent times, they do not turn out at consistent times, they regularly rotate horses’ turnouts and buddies, when they tried to work her they would do it at random times, different pro riders would have different expectations and would enforce their rules differently. And when I confronted them about this, and suggested that it may be affecting my horse’s behavior, they blew me off and said it would be good for her, because apparently my rigid schedule had her wound too tight. Well, no, what has her wound too tight is never knowing when she’ll be fed or when she’ll be worked, what she’ll be allowed to get away with undersaddle and what she’ll be hit for. Maybe this is all fine for other horses, but it doesn’t suit her, and I don’t think consistency is an unreasonable accommodation to make for a horse. I don’t think an intolerance for inconsistency is a reason to euthanize a horse. If she lived in a field and no one ever expected a thing from her—as long as they CONSISTENTLY never expected a thing from her—she would be easy. The issue at the rehabber was, in retrospect, in my opinion, the same as her issue at this barn. Not enough consistency, expectations inconsistently enforced. Maybe it’s true that she isn’t as stoic as other horses, and she gets dangerous when she’s upset where a safer horse would just shut down. I can understand that, and I respect that it makes her dangerous. And sure, I wish I had a horse that would just shut down and deal with it instead of rearing and spinning and carrying on. But I would never describe her as this unpredictable firecracker that would flip over without warning. She is one of the most transparent and easy to read horses I’ve ever seen. As for journaling, I’ve kept an extremely prolific social media account chronicling my entire experience of owning her, and when I have pored over it, the most obvious conclusion to me is that the show barn I moved her to majorly let me down, that every horse pro I ever had work with her majorly let me down, that she was a completely different horse this exact same time last year, and that despite all of that, she is still infinitely better than when I had her with the rehabber. I am still grateful to this thread for making it obvious to me that I should never have considered giving her up to the trainer/rescuer. I agree, it would be a terrible idea and terribly unfair to her. It may just be that I am her person and I am stuck with her for life, but so be it. I will find a way to make it work. I always have. Thanks everyone for your input.

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What does this mean???

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